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Featured Truth: either God exists or He don't.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by capumetu, Jan 22, 2021.

  1. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    That question shows you are irrational when it comes to what you believe about belief. And that you do not know you are irrational in that matter.

    Really?
    Four dimensions can be described as lenght, width, hight and motion aka as space having time. A photograph is two dimensional. A movie made up of two dimensional images with the illusion of motion, like a two dimensional space with motion as a sense of time.

    No correct idea of God.

    You reject an explanation as to God's identity as mere assersion. And yes it is as I personally believe.

    Do you or do you not believe in a reality which has no origin?
     
    #521 37818, Jan 30, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2021
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I said: What is your evidence? How can you prove that Christ lives or that His Holy Spirit abides in all His children? How can you prove that others are blinded? You can certainly 'believe' that but how can you prove it?

    All I did was ask what actual evidence you have. How do you know that I can't see spiritual things because God hasn't opened my spiritual eyes? How do you know that I am spiritually blind? You do not even know what I believe.

    Do you believe that you are in God's elect? If so, how do you know that?
     
  3. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Faith is a belief, not a lack of such.

    Not motion, just time. But close enough for right now.

    I notice that you didn't address the question. Since causality requires time, which is part of that four dimensional manifold, how could the manifold itself be caused? Only things *within* spacetime are caused.

    Which of the many ideas about deities is the 'correct' one? Why do you think that any of them are correct?

    The 'identity' is just an assertion of what God is. It doesn't prove the existence of God. An assertion is not an argument. It is a claim, which requires an argument to be justified.

    I believe that reality itself has no 'origin' in the sense that there was nothing prior to it that caused it.
     
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  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Wrong. Jesus is not the only One person in all of history who ever said "I am the truth." Baha'u'llah claimed to be the Eternal Truth.

    “It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as God’s appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation “Seal of the Prophets” fully revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 60


    “Though the purpose of Him Who is the Eternal Truth hath been to confer everlasting life upon all men, and ensure their security and peace, yet witness how they have arisen to shed the blood of His loved ones, and have pronounced on Him the sentence of death.” Gleanings, p. 116
    You are correct that God is the Truth and he does not share His glory with any other god, but God is not a person.
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Can you show me where God said that?
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Do you have any proof of that?
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I am not sure what you mean by salvation. Do you mean saved from hell and getting to heaven? Since everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty I would say that it is only by the grace of God that we can be enter heaven.

    Mind you, Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location, but a Baha’i once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith (Shoghi Effendi) how to get to heaven, and here was his answer...

    "To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."

    (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)

    Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

    Regarding the importance of faith, referring to Baha'u'llah as Him Whom God shall make manifest, the Bab, forerunner to Baha'u'llah wrote:

    “For indeed if thou dost open the heart of a person for His sake, better will it be for thee than every virtuous deed; since deeds are secondary to faith in Him and certitude in His Reality. XVII, 15.”
    Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 133

    So Christians have to have faith in Jesus to be saved, but Baha'is have to have faith in Baha'u'llah and Jesus, although we also believe in all the other Messengers of God.
    That is congruent with what Baha'is believe, in accordance with the Twin Duties, as noted in the passage below . The good works stem from recognition of Baha'u'llah and following His teachings just as the good works of Christians stem from recognizing Jesus, believing in Jesus, and following His teachings.

    John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

    What Jesus said Is really no different than recognizing and believing in Baha’u’llah in this day….

    “The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331
     
  8. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Like I said it
    It’s impossible to get something from nothing, you cannot get gas, planets or chemicals from nothing.This make your views wrong, as much as you can try that’s where your logic fails every time.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I was not brought up in any religion or believing in God. I became a Baha’i during my first year of college. I was not searching for God or a religion at that time; I simply stumbled upon it, looked into it, and came to believe it was true. That was over 50 years ago, and I have never questioned my belief in Baha’u’llah. Although I have had issues with God, I think that I because I was not raised as a believer.

    How about you, were you raised as a Christian?

    You said: “As a Baptist I hold to the Christian New Testament as the sole Apostolic authority - so by default rejecting the claims of the Baha'i scriptures.” I see no contradictions between the two but that is no doubt because Baha’is interpret the New Testament differently than Christians – not all of it, but come of it. There are contradictions between some Christians doctrines and what Baha’is believe but we believe those Christian doctrines were derived from an incorrect understanding of the Bible, moreover they are man-made, not the words of Jesus.

    I posted the claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports these claims on this thread:

    Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

    However that is a lot of information, so maybe it would be best to ask me what you want to know, or tell me what would constitute evidence for you. For me it was the teachings of the Baha’i Faith and the logic behind progressive revelation that convinced me it was true, and at that time I was not searching for God, so that was a secondary consideration. Much later in life it was the Writings of Baha’u’llah and that became the best evidence for me, and more recently the Bible prophecies that were fulfilled by the coming of Bahaullah because an important piece of evidence.
    First read it and tell me what you think is not true. Please bear in mind that you might simply have a misunderstanding of what has been presented because it is not what you are accustomed to reading in your scriptures. I never had that issue; my issue has been trying to understand the Bible since it is very different from what I am used to reading.
    No, it is not the same meaning. As the chapter said “The second meaning of sacrifice is this: Christ was like a seed, and this seed sacrificed its own form so that the tree might grow and develop. Although the form of the seed was destroyed, its reality became apparent in perfect majesty and beauty in the form of a tree.” So that essentially says that Christ died so we could have eternal life, Christ gave His life so we could grow and develop spiritually, like a seed disappears and grows into a beautiful tree.

    Whoa! That is a lot of information to take in, but since you mentioned the Word I will post what I had already written up, because I have to explain what I believe about the Word all the time

    Most Christians believe that John 1:1-3 and John 1:14 mean that Jesus was God. I do not believe that those verses mean that Jesus is God. God cannot become a man because God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men. We know Jesus was not God because Jesus said that no man has seen God at any time.

    John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    I believe that God can never be known except through Manifestations of God which are sent by God. God sent Jesus and Jesus manifested God in the flesh.

    John 1 King James Version (KJV)
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


    The Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word and the Holy Spirit, which signify the perfections of God, are the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    When God sent Jesus, Jesus was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

    1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    You can't get it any plainer than that. God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God.
    This is the esoteric meaning: “The second meaning of sacrifice is this: Christ was like a seed, and this seed sacrificed its own form so that the tree might grow and develop. Although the form of the seed was destroyed, its reality became apparent in perfect majesty and beauty in the form of a tree.” So what that means is that Christ sacrificed Himself so we could have eternal life. He sacrificed His life so we could grow and develop spiritually, like a seed becomes a beautiful tree.
    1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    I see absolutely no connection between what Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:5 and the bodily resurrection of Christ. What that verse means to me is what it says: There is one God and one mediator between God and men, and Jesus Christ is that mediator. A mediator is a go-between. Since God is too great for humans to understand directly, Jesus acted as a mediator on humanity’s behalf. The reason that Jesus could perform that role is because he had a two-fold nature; since He was both divine and human, He could bridge the gap between God and humans.

    I see no need for the bodily resurrection of Jesus because it accomplished nothing. It has nothing to do with the mission of Jesus and served no purpose whatsoever. I believe the resurrection stories are fictional stories written about Jesus long after He died, so Jesus was just a character in a story. The New Testament documents are the evidence of the bodily resurrection because a story is not proof that anything in the story ever happened. Other than the alleged witnesses in the stories there is no evidence that Jesus ever rose from the dead.

    It is absolutely unnecessary to believe in the bodily resurrection on order to be a Christian. Moreover, when Jesus died on the cross he said “It is finished.”

    John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

    What was finished was His mission on earth, which was bearing witness to the truth about God which culminated in dying on the cross as a sacrifice.

    John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

    AFTER THAT, the gospel writers wrote stories saying that Jesus rose from the dead and brought Jesus back to life by writing these stories. Christians never questioned this belief because it was what they were raised to believe, down through the generations, but some modern-day Christians reject the bodily resurrection, yet they have retained their faith in Jesus.

    What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

    I believe that the soul of Jesus was raised to heaven when he died on the cross and in heaven he took on a spiritual body, just like all humans. No doubt His spiritual body was mi=ore glorified than the bodies of ordinary humans, but it has no “physical” component, since there is nothing physical in heaven, which is a spiritual world.
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Since I have already answered this question many times, I have it all written up I will post the entire write-up. First let me say that I do not think there is any way to ‘prove’ that you have eternal life, but I think you will know if you have it after you die. ;)

    I believe that all humans have a soul that continues to exist forever (is immortal) but that is not to be confused with eternal life, which is a state of the soul that is near to God, meaning that they know and love God. One way to know and love God is by recognizing Jesus so that is why believing in Jesus conferred eternal life.

    Jesus referred to eternal life, but He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, loving God and being close to God, and we can have eternal life both in this world and in the next world (afterlife). It is a state of the soul that is near to God, so you get eternal life by being close to God.

    John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”


    I believe that the soul (spirit) of man is immortal, so no matter what people believe or disbelieve no soul ever actually perishes, so perish in John 3:16 means being far from God.

    “The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2Some Answered Questions, p. 223

    Those people who are veiled from God, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies, are as dead souls.

    “In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
    Some Answered Questions, p. 243
     
  11. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    You do love making baseless assertions. How does my question show those things?

    What has this got to do with what I said? Science tells us that space and time are part of the same thing (manifold) and that all causation, which requires time, must take place within it. The manifold itself cannot have a cause in that sense.

    Again, you've just ignored what I said. Do you have a definition of god and reason (argument or evidence) to take it seriously?

    A statement of what you believe presented as truth is an assertion. What you haven't provided is any reason why anybody else should accept it.

    Do you? What is the origin of your god? How can reality itself (with or without a god) have an origin?
     
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  12. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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  13. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    “And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”
    ‭‭I John‬ ‭5:11-13‬
    When a person is born again, they pass from death to life and God gives them the Holy Spirit, He is the the guarantee of our inheritance. That’s how I know and He is the proof.
     
  14. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    A person that hasn’t been born of the Spirit is dead even while they are living and will be like that for eternity but worse if they reject the gift God offers through Jesus Christ.
     
  15. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    There are problems with this reasoning. When you say 'nothing', do you actually mean *nothing*? No time? No space? No matter?

    In that case, I agree with you, but it is irrelevant.

    To have 'something come about' requires time. But time isn't the cause, it is merely the background. And, since causality requires time, time itself cannot be caused. It doesn't 'come from nothing'; it merely exists.

    And, once time exists, so do space, matter, and energy. They all go together.

    And, the natural way to view ALL of these is as aspects of a *four* dimensional spacetime. Since ALL causality requires time, all causality occurs within this four dimensional structure. Which means the structure itself is uncaused.

    It didn't 'come from nothing'; it simply exists.
     
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  16. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    It's perfectly normal for you to feel that way about God. Some of His ways may appear to be unfair from our point of view.
    But we need to consider the fact that our understanding of God has been perverted by our sin nature, so what we have is totally depraved wicked sinners judging a perfectly good and righteous Go and there in lies the problem.
     
  17. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    I'd rather not open a can of worms and get into a heated prolonged debate about this topic. all my past experiences with those who trust secular science have showed me that they are not interested in the truth of the matter but they prefer to push their agenda.
     
  18. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    How do you know it's a fact? If we can't trust our own minds then claiming that you know anything is nonsensical. Your argument is self-defeating.
     
  19. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    What do you see when you look in the mirror and see that nose hanging off your face. I thought not, so let me help you with this one since all you have to offer is circular reasoning and nothing else.

    That nose hanging off your face will testify against you on judgement day, it will say I hung off your face throughout your whole life but you denied me. you insulted me when you claimed that I was formed in some pond scum over billions of years.

    What could be more reliable than something that's in your face and on your face at the same time. yet you reject it as if it doesn't exist as you don't have enough proof.

    I have zero faint in secular science as they haven't produced any proof that any of their theories are actually true. They keep changing their minds every single day of the week and they don't know if they're coming or going or which ways is up. They can't answer my 5 year old nephews questions, let alone any intelligent adults, so with all due respect if any I choose to flush them down the toilet collectively.
     
  20. Pilgrim Soldier

    Pilgrim Soldier Active Member

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    Ok, so now you have assumed the authority to decide what's real and what's not. Please let me know where you got that authority, I'd like it myself sounds powerful.
     
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