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Featured Truth: either God exists or He don't.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by capumetu, Jan 22, 2021.

  1. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and then it would be his fault that I am spiritually blind. I used to believe the same as you until I realized that my beliefs contradicted reality.
     
  2. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Well, then it is his fault.
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    Where you brought up in the Baha'i faith or were you a convert? I have been assuming you were a convert. I need to start with one piece of evidence at a time. As a Christian I hold to the gospel of Christ as true. As a Baptist I hold to the Christian New Testament as the sole Apostolic authority - so by default rejecting the claims of the Baha'i scriptures. I need steppiing stones, so to speak, some kind of evidence to change may mind, or at the very least to understand why you cannot change yours. Some sarting evidence, one piece at a time.

    That sounds good.

    If I understand that to contradict the Apostolic authority how am I to accept what I think is not true?

    Right here are two problems. First Jesus Christ as the Word "was God," John 1:1. That He as the Word is the uncaused Cause on behalf of the Father, John 1:2-3 and Colossians 1:15-18, Ephesians 3:9, ". . . the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: . . ." That mystery is that non-Jews can share in the New Covenant, Epehsians 2:12, Ephesians 3:3-6, ". . . That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: . . ."

    This is not, I am sure the same "esoteric meaning" which you refer to.

    Please note, so it is my understanding, Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." So no amount of good deeds satisfies "death for sin." Ezekiel 18:4, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die." That is why forgiveness can only be a gift. And God in His justice made His Son that death for us, Just for ref, Romans 3:26, Romans 5:8, 2 Corinthians 5:21, 2 Corinthians 5:10-11, Revelation 20:11-15, 1 John 5:4-5, Revelation 3:5, John 3:3. 1 John 5:9-13. 2 John 1:9. Of course if the bodily resurrecion of Christ is not true then 1 Timothty 2:5 would not be true either and all would have no basis to believe in any of that, in that case, then the so called holy writings. The New Testament documents are the evidence of the bodily resurrection along with the new birth, Romans 8:16, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
     
    #503 37818, Jan 30, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2021
  4. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    That happens in space-time. Because how neutrons and protons in a neucleus are not stable in some isotopes, does not mean there is no reason for it.
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    It does not matter whether there is a unique cause or no first cause - there has to be an uncaused existence for either. Personally I know that uncaused Existence to be the God of the Hebrews. Your acceptance of my views are not need for me to hold them.
     
  6. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    You are simply contradicting the best science we have. For example, alpha decay is a quantum tunnelling phenomenon, which is only explicable by quantum mechanics; the same theory that says there is literally no reason why it happens at one point in time rather than another.
     
  7. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    Why can't the universe (the whole space-time manifold) be an "uncaused existence"?

    True, you can place baseless, irrational faith in whatever you like.
     
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  8. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    Atheism is an irrational faith.
    Because the universe is made up of caused things too. The universe being defined as everything would include any uncaused Existence. Caused things are not part of uncaused existence. To thiink so is irrational.

    To be an atheist one has to have an irrational idea of God. As I have explained, I know God to be the uncaused Existence. With the definition of the universe as everything, would include the infinite omnipresent God who has no beginning. Therefore because the universe means everything, by reason God is uncaused infinite and omnipesent, the universe would be contengent on God in it being uncaused infinite and omnipresent. Now caused things whether there being a first unique cause or no first cause are not uncaused and not part of what is uncaused wouuld still be part of the universe. God and the universe are two distinct things.
     
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  9. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    How can a lack of belief be faith?

    Non-sequitur. It's made up of unacused things too and both take place within the space-time manifold, which cannot have a cause in any normal sense of the word. Causation requires time and time is a (observer dependant) direction though the manifold. The manifold itself is a four-dimensional object. Why can't that be an "unacused existence"?

    I don't have to have any fixed idea of god(s) to be an atheist. I simply note that I've never seen a definition of god(s) that both makes sense and has a good reason to take it seriously.

    You haven't explained it, just asserted it. Claims of knowledge without supporting reasoning or evidence are unconvincing to say the least. The rest seems to be another statement of your personal faith.
     
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  10. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    I agree that not knowing the cause is not the same as saying there is no cause. But, in the cases I am considering, there is no cause. The hypothesis that there is a cause can be tested and has observable consequences (see Bell's inequalities). And, in the real world, those consequences are NOT found.

    The point is that there are *many* uncaused events and being uncaused has nothing to do with divinity or the supernatural. The natural world is often uncaused.

    In particular, you did not address the timing of a radioactive decay. Once again, there is NO difference between a nucleus that decays right now and one that will decay in 1000 years. The timing of the decay is *random*. And this is based on everything we know about radioactive decay.
     
  11. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    An example: take any radioactive nucleus, say tritium. The timing of the decay is uncaused. There is no difference between a tritium nucleus that decays right now and one that won't decay for another 10 years.

    This is the best understanding we have of radioactive decay.

    If you disagree, please provide *evidence* of a difference. You will be guaranteed a Nobel Prize if you do.
     
  12. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Correct. Caused things are not uncaused. But there are many uncaused things in the physical world. Being uncaused does NOT imply a supernatural or have anything to do with divinity.

    Dividing the world into caused and uncaused doesn't make much sense because the same type of event can be caused at times and uncaused at other times. For example the emission of light by an atom is usually uncaused (and spontaneous), but it can also be caused (stimulated emission), like it is in lasers.

    So by any rational way of classifying the world, dividing into caused and uncaused isn't helpful for understanding.

    If God is part of the universe, then the universe cannot be caused (contingent) on God.
     
  13. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    There is a reason why they are unstable. But there is no reason why they decay at one time instead of another.

    Happening in spacetime is rather beside the point since *everything* happens in spacetime.
     
  14. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    What do you believe Eternal Life is, how do you get it, what is the proof that you have it?
     
  15. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Everything we see, feel, touch has been created by a creator, for example your house, car, phone, furniture, toys, tools etc. all began with an idea, planned, engineered and produced by someone. These things are a lot less complex than life but all of the sudden people believe life happened by chance and an accident? That doesn’t make sense.
     
  16. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    No, we know those things were designed by humans for human use. But the parts of the universe that we *know* are designed constitute a very small part of the universe as a whole. In fact, it is limited to those parts made by humans (or, potentially, other animals).

    When you bring in 'chance and accident', you are ignoring the natural laws and basic properties things around us have. Those are NOT random (until you get to the quantum level) and certainly NOT accidental (since there is no intention either way).
     
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  17. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    It’s easy to complicate things and talk about theoretical things, I’m talking about natural laws, actually all laws, life and the entire Universe had to come from a Creator. That’s the point, if anyone is saying that life happened apart from a Creator then it doesn’t make sense. It’s impossible for life to come from nothing.
     
  18. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    I am NOT just talking about theoretical things. I am talking about things we know about in our universe. Radioactivity is a well-understood phenomenon in terms of when it happens and how it comes about. And quantum mechanics *is* one of the natural laws.

    There is no actual law that says that things have to come from a creator.

    Life didn't come from nothing. It is a system of chemical reactions and it came from other systems of chemical reactions. But no 'creator' with an 'intention' was around when it happened.
     
  19. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Brother, In your view, where did the chemicals come from to have the reaction. It’s a ridiculous speculation.
     
  20. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Well, you asked where *life* came from. Life is a system of chemical reactions. When it arose there was already a variety of chemicals around.

    If you ask where the chemical came from, the majority were already in the gas cloud from which our solar system formed. Those came from a previous generation of stars which formed the nuclei of the atoms in their cores and distributed them through supernovas.

    Once again, no intelligence is required: only the operation of natural laws.

    And, more to the point, intelligence is impossible without those chemicals and those natural laws already operative. To say there was an intelligence before the conditions required for that intelligence to exist doesn't make sense to me. As you say, a ridiculous speculation.

    I suspect that if I ask where your 'creator' came from, you will dodge the question and claim it always existed.
     
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