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Trump's threats against the 1st Amendment

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Trump has recently threatened our most sacred constitutionally protected right, our freedom of expression, by threatening private companies like Twitter and satirical television shows like Saturday Night Live by threatening legal action against them.

The 1st Amendment protects organizations like Twitter and shows like SNL from government censorship. It does not protect individual users on Twitter from censorship from Twitter itself. Twitter, as it is not a government actor in any way, is free to censor whatever they want.

Can anyone provide an argument as to why Trump should have the power to ignore the constitution to go after those who mock and criticize him? Please refrain from expressing your subjective opinions about these outlets, as they are not pertinent to this conversation. In other words, just because you don't think SNL is funny or classy doesn't provide evidence for supporting Trump's threats.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Trump has recently threatened our most sacred constitutionally protected right, our freedom of expression, by threatening private companies like Twitter and satirical television shows like Saturday Night Live by threatening legal action against them.

The 1st Amendment protects organizations like Twitter and shows like SNL from government censorship. It does not protect individual users on Twitter from censorship from Twitter itself. Twitter, as it is not a government actor in any way, is free to censor whatever they want.

Can anyone provide an argument as to why Trump should have the power to ignore the constitution to go after those who mock and criticize him? Please refrain from expressing your subjective opinions about these outlets, as they are not pertinent to this conversation. In other words, just because you don't think SNL is funny or classy doesn't provide evidence for supporting Trump's threats.
I'll take a shot....
If SNL seeks to influence the upcoming election, their 'commentary' could be construed as an in-kind contribution.
Ref....
Making in-kind contributions to candidates - FEC.gov
This law has been used against political commentators before.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I'll take a shot....
If SNL seeks to influence the upcoming election, their 'commentary' could be construed as an in-kind contribution.
Ref....
Making in-kind contributions to candidates - FEC.gov
This law has been used against political commentators before.
SNL is not political commentary. It is a satirical show; a comedy. That means it is absolutely protected under the 1st Amendment. We are all allowed to make fun of whatever political figures we like, and the constitution prevents any laws demanding fairness in satire.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
SNL is not political commentary.
So now you're a comedian too?
Oh....wait...you're serious.
It is a satirical show; a comedy. That means it is absolutely protected under the 1st Amendment. We are all allowed to make fun of whatever political figures we like, and the constitution prevents any laws demanding fairness in satire.
You're arguing in their defense.
But you proposed the question, seemingly looking for an answer.
You should consider mine.
How my claim could possibly have merit?
What conditions could provide that?

Do the hard thing...
Find a way to agree with my outlandish answer.
If you can, you get a frubal.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
So now you're a comedian too?
Oh....wait...you're serious.

You're arguing in their defense.
But you proposed the question, seemingly looking for an answer.
You should consider mine.
How my claim could possibly have merit?
What conditions could provide that?

Do the hard thing...
Find a way to agree with my outlandish answer.
If you can, you get a frubal.
It is the hard thing because you are wrong, but it was a valiant effort.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
So now you're a comedian too?
Oh....wait...you're serious.

You're arguing in their defense.
But you proposed the question, seemingly looking for an answer.
You should consider mine.
How my claim could possibly have merit?
What conditions could provide that?

Do the hard thing...
Find a way to agree with my outlandish answer.
If you can, you get a frubal.
I don't see a way. Supreme Court precedent guarantees the protection of satirical expression like SNL. So, how could you argue different?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It is the hard thing because you are wrong, but it was a valiant effort.
Thou doth object too quickly.
It's not interesting if you're concerned only with being right.
Where's your imagination?
How could my proposal possibly be cromulent?

Is the left so devoid of creativity that they can only understand their own agenda?
The gauntlet is thrown down!
Someone show me some above average gray matter.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't see a way. Supreme Court precedent guarantees the protection of satirical expression like SNL. So, how could you argue different?
I've formulated one with a little more detail than so far presented.
Certainly, I'm not so brilliant that other cannot discover the same.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Trump has recently threatened our most sacred constitutionally protected right, our freedom of expression, by threatening private companies like Twitter and satirical television shows like Saturday Night Live by threatening legal action against them.

The 1st Amendment protects organizations like Twitter and shows like SNL from government censorship. It does not protect individual users on Twitter from censorship from Twitter itself. Twitter, as it is not a government actor in any way, is free to censor whatever they want.

Can anyone provide an argument as to why Trump should have the power to ignore the constitution to go after those who mock and criticize him? Please refrain from expressing your subjective opinions about these outlets, as they are not pertinent to this conversation. In other words, just because you don't think SNL is funny or classy doesn't provide evidence for supporting Trump's threats.
Those that support him clearly couldn't care less about the Constitution, especially the 1st Amendment. Autocrats like him simply don't want any obstacles to their ruling.

And for those who do like the Constitution, there's going to likely be far more and deeper challenges along this line yet to come as even Cohen stated.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Those that support him clearly couldn't care less about the Constitution, especially the 1st Amendment. Autocrats like him simply don't want any obstacles to their ruling.

And for those who do like the Constitution, there's going to likely be far more and deeper challenges along this line yet to come as even Cohen stated.
Yes. Among other things, it's the cornered rat phenomenon.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Trump has recently threatened our most sacred constitutionally protected right, our freedom of expression, by threatening private companies like Twitter and satirical television shows like Saturday Night Live by threatening legal action against them.

The 1st Amendment protects organizations like Twitter and shows like SNL from government censorship. It does not protect individual users on Twitter from censorship from Twitter itself. Twitter, as it is not a government actor in any way, is free to censor whatever they want.

Can anyone provide an argument as to why Trump should have the power to ignore the constitution to go after those who mock and criticize him? Please refrain from expressing your subjective opinions about these outlets, as they are not pertinent to this conversation. In other words, just because you don't think SNL is funny or classy doesn't provide evidence for supporting Trump's threats.

If Trump is that thinned skinned he may as well leave the office. SNL has been making presidential spoofs for over 40 years. Trump hates it because it's spot on about him many times :)

 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Trump should be glad that he was not in power when "That was the week that was" TW3 was on air.
That found a way to ridicule everyone. and was compulsive watching.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Thou doth object too quickly.
It's not interesting if you're concerned only with being right.
Where's your imagination?
How could my proposal possibly be cromulent?

Is the left so devoid of creativity that they can only understand their own agenda?
The gauntlet is thrown down!
Someone show me some above average gray matter.
Lol, you think that I have not thouroughly analyzed it because I judge too quickly. I am just that quick.

Money itself acts as a form of speech. I have no issue considering speech as a campaign contribution. The problem is in the fact that this is independent speech. They are free to do as they wish.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Trump has recently threatened our most sacred constitutionally protected right, our freedom of expression, by threatening private companies like Twitter and satirical television shows like Saturday Night Live by threatening legal action against them.

The 1st Amendment protects organizations like Twitter and shows like SNL from government censorship. It does not protect individual users on Twitter from censorship from Twitter itself. Twitter, as it is not a government actor in any way, is free to censor whatever they want.

Can anyone provide an argument as to why Trump should have the power to ignore the constitution to go after those who mock and criticize him? Please refrain from expressing your subjective opinions about these outlets, as they are not pertinent to this conversation. In other words, just because you don't think SNL is funny or classy doesn't provide evidence for supporting Trump's threats.

I don't see how Trump is actually threatening our constitution. He seems to be expressing an opinion which he has a constitutionally protected right to do so.

I doubt anyone thinks a president should have the right to ignore the constitution.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Yes.
And the rest of your post confirms it.
Imagine harder.
Already have. Your imaginings fail to connect with reality. That is the only problem.

You agree that we are discussing independent speech?

You agree that this independent speech is not a direct contribution?
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
Thou doth object too quickly.
It's not interesting if you're concerned only with being right.
Where's your imagination?
How could my proposal possibly be cromulent?

Is the left so devoid of creativity that they can only understand their own agenda?
The gauntlet is thrown down!
Someone show me some above average gray matter.
giphy.gif

First and foremost is that on the Left, being correct is all that is pertinent, whether it is “interesting” or not. “The Left” (i.e. reality-based centrists) follows the mantra of,
“Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but there is only one set of facts.”. There are no such things as “alternative facts” (those are called “lies”). Once the cult fanatics accept this truth, THEN we can return to civil discourse in government and elesewhere.
While The Right tends to favor ‘victory at all costs’, this only leads to ‘might makes right’, which humanity has been trying to do away with since the first ******* picked up a rock and smashed the heads of anyone who said he was a jerk. The United States of America is better than that. We are not a collection of warlords, or a mafia-run crime syndicate.




So. The proposition.....
I'll take a shot....
If SNL seeks to influence the upcoming election, their 'commentary' could be construed as an in-kind contribution.
Ref....
Making in-kind contributions to candidates - FEC.gov
This law has been used against political commentators before.
Per your FEC citation, in-kind contributions are gifts or services. In SNL’s case we might consider their parodies and satire as political advertisements designed to make candidate Trump fail. And of course this is free of cost for any and all of Trump’s competitors.
However, as your reference cites....
A group is considered to have made an in-kind contribution, particularly in the form of a free political advertisement only when the advertisement is NOT an independent expenditure (Such as huge corporate PACs spending whatever sum they please on their conservative lapdog).
Individuals, groups, corporations, labor organizations and political committees (including separate segregated funds (SSFs), party committees and nonconnected committees) may support or oppose candidates by making independent expenditures. Independent expenditures are not contributions and are not subject to limits.”. - FEC

But what exactly is an independent expenditure? I’m glad you asked. The FEC states....
An independent expenditure is an expenditure for a communication, such as a website, newspaper, TV or direct mail advertisement that:
  • Expressly advocates the election or defeat of a clearly identified candidate; and
  • Is not made in consultation or cooperation with, or at the request or suggestion of a candidate, candidate’s committee, party committee or their agents.”

So ..... even though the treasonous decision in Citizens United, by the corruptly right-wing biased Supreme Court, allows corporations to spend hundreds of millions of dollars in hidden undisclosed monies, even to the point of allowing foreign interests to sway the American election, without ever having to disclose their sources....the corrupted SCOTUS decision did give the leftist David one tiny rock to fight against the many Corporate Goliaths that they unleashed. The little groups like SNL may freely devote their time and money speaking Truth to Power, and not have to worry about contribution limits.


However, as has been repeatedly pointed out, the SCOTUS has on several occasions, previously addressed this issue of satire and parodies. You don’t even get to judge what is satire or parody; which is probably why dull-witted anti-American pigs such as Rush Limbaugh constantly say horrific things, and when they are called out on it scream, “hey it was just a joke! You flipping uncreative and unimaginative idiots”. Again, we see that daring to challenge the word of the right makes one unimaginative....every time. How ironic.

James Walker (with the SCOTUS) addresses this in a site called the Free Speech Center and the John Seigenthaler Chair of Excellence in First Amendment Studies,
with this......
Generally, courts have balanced the property rights of the plaintiffs against the First Amendment rights of the defendants. That is, when the use of a property, whether copyrighted matter or a trademark, is “part of a communicative message” and not intended to obscure the source of the work, the First Amendment takes precedence over any property rights the owner or holder may have. Furthermore, as Judge Pierre N. Leval wrote in Yankee Publishing Inc. v. News America Publishing, Inc. (S.D.N.Y. 1992), “First Amendment protections do not apply only to those who speak clearly, whose jokes are funny, and whose parodies succeed.”

Satire can also come under attack as defamation. The key distinction between satire and defamation is that satire is not meant to be believed by the audience. Satire is biting, critical, and designed to attack, often with malice. It is almost always false. For example, in Hustler Magazine v. Falwell (1988), Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, writing for a unanimous court, stated that a parody depicting the Reverend Jerry Falwell as a drunken, incestuous son could not be defamation since it was an obvious parody, not intended as a statement of fact. To find otherwise, the Court said, was to endanger First Amendment protection for every artist, political cartoonist, and comedian who used satire to criticize public figures.”
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
First and foremost is that on the Left, being correct is all that is pertinent, whether it is “interesting” or not. “The Left” (i.e. reality-based centrists) follows the mantra of,
“Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but there is only one set of facts.”. There are no such things as “alternative facts” (those are called “lies”). Once the cult fanatics accept this truth, THEN we can return to civil discourse in government and elesewhere.
While The Right tends to favor ‘victory at all costs’, this only leads to ‘might makes right’, which humanity has been trying to do away with since the first ******* picked up a rock and smashed the heads of anyone who said he was a jerk. The United States of America is better than that. We are not a collection of warlords, or a mafia-run crime syndicate.
Fascinating.
So. The proposition.....
Per your FEC citation, in-kind contributions are gifts or services. In SNL’s case we might consider their parodies and satire as political advertisements designed to make candidate Trump fail. And of course this is free of cost for any and all of Trump’s competitors.
However, as your reference cites....
A group is considered to have made an in-kind contribution, particularly in the form of a free political advertisement only when the advertisement is NOT an independent expenditure (Such as huge corporate PACs spending whatever sum they please on their conservative lapdog).
Individuals, groups, corporations, labor organizations and political committees (including separate segregated funds (SSFs), party committees and nonconnected committees) may support or oppose candidates by making independent expenditures. Independent expenditures are not contributions and are not subject to limits.”. - FEC

But what exactly is an independent expenditure? I’m glad you asked. The FEC states....
An independent expenditure is an expenditure for a communication, such as a website, newspaper, TV or direct mail advertisement that:
  • Expressly advocates the election or defeat of a clearly identified candidate; and
  • Is not made in consultation or cooperation with, or at the request or suggestion of a candidate, candidate’s committee, party committee or their agents.”

So ..... even though the treasonous decision in Citizens United, by the corruptly right-wing biased Supreme Court, allows corporations to spend hundreds of millions of dollars in hidden undisclosed monies, even to the point of allowing foreign interests to sway the American election, without ever having to disclose their sources....the corrupted SCOTUS decision did give the leftist David one tiny rock to fight against the many Corporate Goliaths that they unleashed. The little groups like SNL may freely devote their time and money speaking Truth to Power, and not have to worry about contribution limits.


However, as has been repeatedly pointed out, the SCOTUS has on several occasions, previously addressed this issue of satire and parodies. You don’t even get to judge what is satire or parody; which is probably why dull-witted anti-American pigs such as Rush Limbaugh constantly say horrific things, and when they are called out on it scream, “hey it was just a joke! You flipping uncreative and unimaginative idiots”. Again, we see that daring to challenge the word of the right makes one unimaginative....every time. How ironic.

James Walker (with the SCOTUS) addresses this in a site called the Free Speech Center and the John Seigenthaler Chair of Excellence in First Amendment Studies,
with this......
Generally, courts have balanced the property rights of the plaintiffs against the First Amendment rights of the defendants. That is, when the use of a property, whether copyrighted matter or a trademark, is “part of a communicative message” and not intended to obscure the source of the work, the First Amendment takes precedence over any property rights the owner or holder may have. Furthermore, as Judge Pierre N. Leval wrote in Yankee Publishing Inc. v. News America Publishing, Inc. (S.D.N.Y. 1992), “First Amendment protections do not apply only to those who speak clearly, whose jokes are funny, and whose parodies succeed.”

Satire can also come under attack as defamation. The key distinction between satire and defamation is that satire is not meant to be believed by the audience. Satire is biting, critical, and designed to attack, often with malice. It is almost always false. For example, in Hustler Magazine v. Falwell (1988), Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, writing for a unanimous court, stated that a parody depicting the Reverend Jerry Falwell as a drunken, incestuous son could not be defamation since it was an obvious parody, not intended as a statement of fact. To find otherwise, the Court said, was to endanger First Amendment protection for every artist, political cartoonist, and comedian who used satire to criticize public figures.”
So much volume.
So little imagination.
 
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