Trump 'order's all houses of worship open.

[Wandering Monk]

Yes, food is necessary, but Walmart has a lot more stuff than just food. Why is it okay for hundreds of people to go into corporate Walmart and buy non-food items like shoes, kids clothes or toys, etc. ... but the Main Street shoe or toy store where only one or two customers usually enter at any given time is closed down, likely leading many to go out or business ?
Walmart is box as much as any church. Who are you or any government personnel to decide what is essential or not? Some people may live alone, maybe church is their only connection with others and maybe there are those who still don’t use social media or internet. Many doctors are speaking out about the detrimental effects of the lockdown and the incredible rise of suicide as people can’t deal with the isolation, loneliness and depression. I think you need to step back and look at the big picture of what’s happening here.

If Walmart didn't sell food, it would be non-essential and closed.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, food is necessary, but Walmart has a lot more stuff than just food. Why is it okay for hundreds of people to go into corporate Walmart and buy non-food items like shoes, kids clothes or toys, etc. ...

Toys aren't necessary. Clothes amd shoes are.

Walmart is box as much as any church. Who are you or any government personnel to decide what is essential or not?

Biology does that pretty well. We need food. We need water. We need shelter. We need medicine. This isn't hard.

Many doctors are speaking out about the detrimental effects of the lockdown and the incredible rise of suicide as people can’t deal with the isolation, loneliness and depression. I think you need to step back and look at the big picture of what’s happening here.

And there is also a collective responsibility to not put people at needless risk. It's a bad situation. No matter what, it's going to suck. Ultimately more people will die without restrictions than those who will with them. Yes things like depression are a problem. Severe cases of that are more treatable than severe cases of covid.

 

[InChrist]

If Walmart didn't sell food, it would be non-essential and closed.

I understand that, but do you think it is really legitimate for the government to decide if or when shoes, a blanket, kids clothes or other items are essential?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

That’s true, there are emergency situations and that was the case initially with the virus when much was unknown. That is no longer the case. Now the situation is being used and abused by narcissist politicians and sensible people who coped in the beginning are having a very hard time coping when they lose their business, can’t get “ non-essential’ medical treatments and surgeries, or feed their kids.

I do not disagree with you. But I am, alas, not smart enough to know what the right thing to do is. But it often seems I can recognize unhelpful behaviour when I see it...maybe.

 

[InChrist]

Toys aren't necessary. Clothes amd shoes are.

Biology does that pretty well. We need food. We need water. We need shelter. We need medicine. This isn't hard.

And there is also a collective responsibility to not put people at needless risk. It's a bad situation. No matter what, it's going to suck. Ultimately more people will die without restrictions than those who will with them. Yes things like depression are a problem. Severe cases of that are more treatable than severe cases of covid.

Just for your information...

Covid-19 is deadly, and so is keeping millions of people out of work

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Just for your information...

Covid-19 is deadly, and so is keeping millions of people out of work

The issues mentioned is why I advocate a very structured, highly organized, and very restricted and limited economy. We need to buy food to eat. We don't need to shop, as in Bush Jr.'s sollution for a post 9/11 America.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Just for your information...

Covid-19 is deadly, and so is keeping millions of people out of work

Amd by all models and predictions, mutlitudes and scores more people die without restrictions than with them. And its because this virus is extremely contagious, and likely to have killed a ton more people than the official count. Amd basically everyone who hasnt been infected belong to an unknown risk group. Most likely well be ok, but there is no way to know if we'll get wickedly ill or die gasping for air. We can do far more about hunger than we can covid.

 

[InChrist]

The issues mentioned is why I advocate a very structured, highly organized, and very restricted and limited economy. We need to buy food to eat. We don't need to shop, as in Bush Jr.'s sollution for a post 9/11 America.

Well how are those who lose their businesses supposed to buy food if people are not allowed to shop at these businesses, buy their products, and provide income?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I understand that, but do you think it is really legitimate for the government to decide if or when shoes, a blanket, kids clothes or other items are essential?

Do you not realize this is a moment of crisis? That during declared state of emergencies the state does have that power? I went through several times in Indiana, where non essential travel has been restricted, and if you are out you will be arrested. Winter conditions have made travel too hazardous, and emergency personnel have to be able to focus on emergencies instead of people being stupid. Which often makes things worse for all.
This is not the circumstances of a year ago, had they enacted these restrictions then. There was no Covid-19, the restrictions would have been unreasonable. But now a killer is on the loose and at large. Avoiding crowds and enclosed areas as much as possible is how we deal with it until we have treatments. Mingling with crowds only serves to enable to killer to do its worst.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well how are those who lose their businesses supposed to buy food if people are not allowed to shop at these businesses, buy their products, and provide income?

We need to be a society and help and support each other right now. Or are you expecting "everyman for himself?"

 

[Wandering Monk]

There seem to be a bunch of ****tards out there who won't understand until someone they know gets this bug.

 

[InChrist]

Do you not realize this is a moment of crisis? That during declared state of emergencies the state does have that power? I went through several times in Indiana, where non essential travel has been restricted, and if you are out you will be arrested. Winter conditions have made travel too hazardous, and emergency personnel have to be able to focus on emergencies instead of people being stupid. Which often makes things worse for all.
This is not the circumstances of a year ago, had they enacted these restrictions then. There was no Covid-19, the restrictions would have been unreasonable. But now a killer is on the loose and at large. Avoiding crowds and enclosed areas as much as possible is how we deal with it until we have treatments. Mingling with crowds only serves to enable to killer to do its worst.

Personally, I avoid crowds even under normal circumstances. I am not advocating mingling in large crowds. The fact is that churches can institute responsible guidelines for social distancing as well as Walmart and small businesses already had no crowds as Walmart’s do in the first place.

 

[columbus]

Maybe because it is a slippery slope and rights and freedoms are lost in increments. Or certain groups are targeted before others.

Except that no particular group is being singled out. It's a type of gathering where comparative strangers mingle at relatively close quarters. It's not like cinemas and concerts and dance clubs are open, either. Some of my favorite street art shows aren't happening. Etc. Etc.

It's not that religious people are being persecuted.
Tom

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Personally, I avoid crowds even under normal circumstances. I am not advocating mingling in large crowds. The fact is that churches can institute responsible guidelines for social distancing as well as Walmart and small businesses already had no crowds as Walmart’s do in the first place.

Walmart has things we need. Church does not. Going out increases our chances of contracting Covid. For this reason non-essentials where closed. Because after youve been to church you are sharing that church risk with those minizing their risks by only going out for essentials.
FYI, the county I was about a quarter mile from in Indiana went uktra strict while locked down. They went so strict you couldn't buy clothes, art supplies, electronics, Walmart couldn't sell them, and there was no going out at all unless it was to go for essentials. That level of lockdown is needed everywhere.

 

[InChrist]

We need to be a society and help and support each other right now. Or are you expecting "everyman for himself?"

No, I am not of the mindset “every man for himself “ and do believe in helping and supporting others, but to me that includes letting small businesses operate so the owners can make a living rather than having Walmart Amazon and the big corporations make millions of extra off this Covid crisis while the small businesses lose out.
There are plenty of small churches that are not into fleecing there members, where pastors are seriously serving and caring for others, but now are struggling to survive.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, I am not of the mindset “every man for himself “ and do believe in helping and supporting others, but to me that includes letting small businesses operate so the owners can make a living rather than having Walmart Amazon and the big corporations make millions of extra off this Covid crisis while the small businesses lose out.
There are plenty of small churches that are not into fleecing there members, where pastors are seriously serving and caring for others, but now are struggling to survive.

Most mom and pop shops aren't selling necessities. Walmart ran many of them put of business. Amazon is also destroying brick and morter stores. Where was this outrage over the past decade as stores have been closing due to a changing economy that is technology based?
Things suck right now. We need not make things worse by enabling non-essential economic activity. We need to support eachother in meaningful ways, not by shopping and buying junk. Thats just going to get people killed (but, then again, American consumerism gets people killed as a regular thing anyways and few give a damn).
Shops can be reopened and restarted. Lives cannot.

 

[InChrist]

Most mom and pop shops aren't selling necessities. Walmart ran many of them put of business. Amazon is also destroying brick and morter stores. Where was this outrage over the past decade as stores have been closing due to a changing economy that is technology based?
Things suck right now. We need not make things worse by enabling non-essential economic activity. We need to support eachother in meaningful ways, not by shopping and buying junk. Thats just going to get people killed (but, then again, American consumerism gets people killed as a regular thing anyways and few give a damn).
Shops can be reopened and restarted. Lives cannot.

I wonder since you are coming across as if you care about lives so much, do you care about the over 17,000,000 babies killed this year by abortion?
Worldometer - real time world statistics

I have no doubt this lockdown is going to harm more lives than the coronavirus will. I think you need to do more research into the overall situation, rather than being manipulated by fear and the mainstream narrative.


A Year’s Worth of Suicide Attempts in the Last Four Weeks’: California Doctor Calls for End to Lockdown

Suicide & Coronavirus -- California Doctor Calls for End to Lockdown due “Unprecedented” Spike in Suicide Attempts | National Review

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have no doubt this lockdown is going to harm more lives than the coronavirus will. I think you need to do more research into the overall situation, rather than being manipulated by fear and the mainstream narrative.

The situation of Covid's existence has harmed and effected everyone. This is already a fact. It is also a fact fewer people will die and get critically ill with lockdowns in place.

A Year’s Worth of Suicide Attempts in the Last Four Weeks’: California Doctor Calls for End to Lockdown

We can do more for suicide than we can covid. A simple conversation can go a long way in suicide prevention. We can do very little against Covid. Things are bad. But opening the floodgates for plague is not going to help. Then people will be killing themselves because they are scared because so many people around them are dying. Covid is still early here, and already has reached 10% of the 1,000,000+ deaths some have predicted. Do you honestly expect a better outlook if we let this virus that has already so quickly killed so many have what it needs for optimal reproduction and spreading?
Now, let us continue how this discussion plays out. Some years later, sooner rather than later, we have another economic disturbance. Suicides and attempts go up. Are we going to advocate we overthrow and replace this system that is so fragile and so prone to causing periodic and widespread harm to so very many when so very few misbehave? When a bad medicine kills and maims, do we advocate that those who enacted laws that protect the companies who manufactured those medications be removed from office and those laws struck? When medicare and medicaid cuts are proposed, will we have this same fervor given that does effect many people in negative ways, including poor health and death when they can no longer affords medications and treatments? Shall we now overthrow our for-profit healthcare system that lets a lot of people die anyways because, although we have the means and resources to treat them, they can't afford the treatment? Are we going to demand our system that perpetuates poverty across generations be replaced with a more humane system that allows for more upward mobility? (of course not)

 

[InChrist]

The situation of Covid's existence has harmed and effected everyone. This is already a fact. It is also a fact fewer people will die and get critically ill with lockdowns in place.

We can do more for suicide than we can covid. A simple conversation can go a long way in suicide prevention. We can do very little against Covid. Things are bad. But opening the floodgates for plague is not going to help. Then people will be killing themselves because they are scared because so many people around them are dying. Covid is still early here, and already has reached 10% of the 1,000,000+ deaths some have predicted. Do you honestly expect a better outlook if we let this virus that has already so quickly killed so many have what it needs for optimal reproduction and spreading?
Now, let us continue how this discussion plays out. Some years later, sooner rather than later, we have another economic disturbance. Suicides and attempts go up. Are we going to advocate we overthrow and replace this system that is so fragile and so prone to causing periodic and widespread harm to so very many when so very few misbehave? When a bad medicine kills and maims, do we advocate that those who enacted laws that protect the companies who manufactured those medications be removed from office and those laws struck? When medicare and medicaid cuts are proposed, will we have this same fervor given that does effect many people in negative ways, including poor health and death when they can no longer affords medications and treatments? Shall we now overthrow our for-profit healthcare system that lets a lot of people die anyways because, although we have the means and resources to treat them, they can't afford the treatment? Are we going to demand our system that perpetuates poverty across generations be replaced with a more humane system that allows for more upward mobility? (of course not)

Please consider reading the data in the following article written by ...

Jeffrey D. Klausner, a former CDC medical officer, is a professor of medicine and public health at UCLA. Rajiv Bhatia, a former San Francisco City and County deputy health officer, is an assistant clinical professor of medicine (affiliated) at Stanford School of Medicine.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/05/most-states-can-safely-relax-some-coronavirus-restrictions/?itm_source=parsely-ap



... which supports wisely opening up.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Please consider reading the data in the following article written by ...

Jeffrey D. Klausner, a former CDC medical officer, is a professor of medicine and public health at UCLA. Rajiv Bhatia, a former San Francisco City and County deputy health officer, is an assistant clinical professor of medicine (affiliated) at Stanford School of Medicine.

... which supports wisely opening up.

I have been advocating a strict, controlled, and limited reopening. I am also very upfront that we are going to have to have less for now. Wise reopenings means no gyms (too much heavy breathing which will project the virus far beyond the six foot suggestions), no church (a bunch of people sitting in a people box for about an hour), strict social distancing, and discouraging people from eating at restaurants and going to movies (that's just how it's going to have to be. those aren't necessary, they aren't essential, but they are good ways to spread Covid).
You also didn't link to the article.