TRUE love between a man and a woman (or gay/lesbian, etc.) can not exist.

[blackout]

Yeah UV I am with koldo on this one. You are defining unconditional love atypically which you are free to do so as koldo states.

You do not agree that unconditional love
is love without conditions?
(ie, love that does not levy conditions on others?)

What is it then?

 

[blackout]

Hello all. I have had several friends go through some exceptionally nasty relationships before (I have as well). I always used to believe in true love, but recently I am not so sure.

First, I suppose one must define "True love."

By my book, I guess it would have to be the unconditional love by both parties. Unconditional meaning that no matter what different parameters are thrown into the equation, the couple continues to love each other. For example, a guy loses his job and is broke, or a woman that gets paralyzed from the neck down.

That being said here are two major reasons why I question the idea of "True love."

The first side of the coin would have to be biology. Good old mother nature. Deep down we usually crave sex. It's just the way it is (I suppose mostly directed at men but there are some wild women out there too ). Now I understand that some people can learn to control these urges, and live happy monogamous long term relationships, and I understand that some would like to believe that you can still love someone and have an affair with someone else (although I disagree.)

Now the second point. Most people enter relationships to get something in return. Whether it's red hot love making, a roof over your head, money, or even just an adventurous lifestyle. And many will claim that they still love their partner even under these circumstances, but I feel that what they actually love is what is provided for them or what they get out of the relationship itself.

So you know, I kind of tend to view "True love" kind of like the traditional "God." Everyone wants to believe in its existence, and it may be unpopular to state the contrary, but it is a valid point to try to grasp what things are like and how they can be explained without it.

Any thoughts?

P.S. I am not trying to invalidate anybody's feelings here. I understand "regular love" is a very real human emotion. I am just trying to grasp the external variables that would cause people to feel this way.

You can still love each other
even when big things change,
but why expect that changes
might not necessarily bring with them
other changes.

 

[Vendetta]

So, you've decided that unconditional love means you would do nothing to avoid being abused, eh? But where is your evidence for such a strange notion?

It's looks to me like you are speculating.

But, if you are going to speculate, then perhaps you should be careful you do not fall into the trap of thinking love -- unconditional or otherwise -- makes you more inclined to accept abuse. Emotional dependency makes you more inclined to accept abuse, and you seem to have love confused with emotional dependency. Perhaps your idea of "unconditional love" is something along the lines of "infinite emotional dependency"?

If it's any consolation, I've several times before now seen people who have never experienced unconditional love make the same mistake you just have. It seems a common enough mistake to make if you've never experienced unconditional love. You're not the only one who has made it.

I understand the distincton you've made between unconditional love and emotional dependency. However, if we go by the typical definition of unconditional love we can see that to love unconditionally fails to be logical and impossible. The fact that anyone is.emotionally dependent on someone unconditional love ceases to be, because the reciprocity of love is the object that the person is dependent upon. Perhaps you can unconditionally love the idea of something but realistically, as I have demonstrated previously all forms of love are conditional. Take abuse out of the equation let's look at cheating. If a person cheats on you and the cheating causes bad feelings within you, unconditional love ceases to be. As I mentioned previously unconditional love by definition is an acceptance of the aforementioned object in its entirety without conditions. Pleasure is obviously a condition in any relationship, so, if girl A cheats on me continuously and it causes me displeasure, the concept of unconditional love ceases to be. It is nothing short of being irrational to love someone who causes you displeasure and in fact virtually impossible. It doesn't matter whether I experienced love or not unconditional love is impossible. Hell, God in the Abrahamic faiths is presented as a conditionally loving god.

 

[Sunstone]

By not putting conditions on others,
(ie., un-conditional)
well...
you are not attempting to tell them
who, what or how they should be.

It's fine to tell others what you need,
but unconditional love does not EXPECT
the "object of their love"
to fulfill those needs.

Two very COMPATIBLE people
will be what each other needs
simply by being themSelves.

I think people here
are confusing compatibility
with unconditional love.

Frubal. I don't see how unconditional love could be said to expect the "object of their love" to fulfill their needs.

 

[Vendetta]

You do not agree that unconditional love
is love without conditions?
(ie, love that does not levy conditions on others?)

What is it then?

I am confused. Unconditional love is without conditions. I am saying to love someone unconditionally is impossible. As I have previously demonstrated, all forms of love are with conditions, and the prime condition is pleasure. If someone causes you displeasure that alone contradicts unconditional love. You can't unconditionally love something if it causes displeasure. You can love someone who causes displeasure (e.g. A boy can love a parent who just spanked him), however to unconditionally love something is impossible. Like I said if you can prove otherwise you'd be a billionare.

 

[Koldo]

By not putting conditions on others,
(ie., un-conditional)
well...
you are not attempting to tell them
who, what or how they should be.

It's fine to tell others what you need,
but unconditional love does not EXPECT
the "object of their love"
to fulfill those needs.

Actually, you can tell others what you need and expect from them.
You can also tell them what or how they should be.
There is nothing wrong with feeling 'unconditional love' and doing those things as long as you love the others regardless of what happens.

 

[Vendetta]

Frubal. I don't see how unconditional love could be said to expect the "object of their love" to fulfill their needs.

You guys have it wrong. I didn't mention expectations of the other I was referring to the self. Displeasure contradicts unconditional love. Let me rephrase "continuous displeasure" contradicts the concept of unconditional love.

 

[blackout]

I understand the distincton you've made between unconditional love and emotional dependency. However, if we go by the typical definition of unconditional love we can see that to love unconditionally fails to be logical and impossible. The fact that anyone is.emotionally dependent on someone unconditional love ceases to be, because the reciprocity of love is the object that the person is dependent upon. Perhaps you can unconditionally love the idea of something but realistically, as I have demonstrated previously all forms of love are conditional. Take abuse out of the equation let's look at cheating. If a person cheats on you and the cheating causes bad feelings within you, unconditional love ceases to be. As I mentioned previously unconditional love by definition is an acceptance of the aforementioned object in its entirety without conditions. Pleasure is obviously a condition in any relationship, so, if girl A cheats on me continuously and it causes me displeasure, the concept of unconditional love ceases to be. It is nothing short of being irrational to love someone who causes you displeasure and in fact virtually impossible. It doesn't matter whether I experienced love or not unconditional love is impossible. Hell, God in the Abrahamic faiths is presented as a conditionally loving god.

It is entirely possible to accept and love a person without condition/s,
without wanting to live with them,
or have sex with them,
or go to church with them on Sunday,
or clubbing with them on Saturday,
or whatever.

As I said,
these other things
have far more to do with compatiblity
than they do with love.

 

[blackout]

Actually, you can tell others what you need and expect from them.
You can also tell them what or how they should be.
There is nothing wrong with feeling 'unconditional love' and doing those things as long as you love the others regardless of what happens.

You can tell them what you need and expect from a RELATIONSHIP, yes,
from a live in partnership,
but as soon as you tell them what you need and expect from THEM,
the love is no longer unconditional.
It is expectational.

 

[blackout]

I am confused. Unconditional love is without conditions. I am saying to love someone unconditionally is impossible. As I have previously demonstrated, all forms of love are with conditions, and the prime condition is pleasure. If someone causes you displeasure that alone contradicts unconditional love. You can't unconditionally love something if it causes displeasure. You can love someone who causes displeasure (e.g. A boy can love a parent who just spanked him), however to unconditionally love something is impossible. Like I said if you can prove otherwise you'd be a billionare.

It is completely possible to split with someone
because you are no longer compatible
and still love them
with no feelings of displeasure.

As life changes,
and people change,
the nature of relationships change.
This does not equate the termination of love.

 

[Koldo]

You can tell them what you need and expect from a RELATIONSHIP, yes,
from a live in partnership,
but as soon as you tell them what you need and expect from THEM,
the love is no longer unconditional.
It is expectational.

As i have said, as long as you love the others regardless of whether they meet your expectations or not then it is still unconditional love.

There are no contradictions between expectations and unconditional love.

 

[blackout]

:sleep:Too tired to continue.
Nighty.

 

[Vendetta]

It is entirely possible to accept and love a person without condition/s,
without wanting to live with them,
or have sex with them,
or go to church with them on Sunday,
or clubbing with them on Saturday,
or whatever.

As I said,
these other things
have far more to do with compatiblity
than they do with love.

Ok you just named enjoyments not why you unconditionally love someone. Tell me, if a person cheats on you would you feel bad?

 

[Vendetta]

It is completely possible to split with someone
because you are no longer compatible
and still love them
with no feelings of displeasure.

As life changes,
and people change,
the nature of relationships change.
This does not equate the termination of love.

Ok you aren't still supporting your argument of unconditional love by the way. I know about compatibility but I am referring to the idea of unconditional love.

 

[Vendetta]

Can anyone in support of unconditional love prove it exists without it inherently contradicting itself? FYI compatibility also encompasses "unconditional love."

 

[science_is_my_god]

Interesting posts! I guess it really does come down to one's own personal perspective in relation to multiple factors. However, I suppose I must rephrase the question:

Does true love, as a universal concept ever exist? I suppose we should all scratch our heads and try and figure out how to put a definition and guidelines as to what makes "true love" TRUE LOVE. If you are all saying some form or another of "it depends," then I would be inclined to say "No. It can not exist on a universal level."

 

[McBell]

Hello all. I have had several friends go through some exceptionally nasty relationships before (I have as well). I always used to believe in true love, but recently I am not so sure.

First, I suppose one must define "True love."

By my book, I guess it would have to be the unconditional love by both parties. Unconditional meaning that no matter what different parameters are thrown into the equation, the couple continues to love each other. For example, a guy loses his job and is broke, or a woman that gets paralyzed from the neck down.

That being said here are two major reasons why I question the idea of "True love."

The first side of the coin would have to be biology. Good old mother nature. Deep down we usually crave sex. It's just the way it is (I suppose mostly directed at men but there are some wild women out there too ). Now I understand that some people can learn to control these urges, and live happy monogamous long term relationships, and I understand that some would like to believe that you can still love someone and have an affair with someone else (although I disagree.)

Now the second point. Most people enter relationships to get something in return. Whether it's red hot love making, a roof over your head, money, or even just an adventurous lifestyle. And many will claim that they still love their partner even under these circumstances, but I feel that what they actually love is what is provided for them or what they get out of the relationship itself.

So you know, I kind of tend to view "True love" kind of like the traditional "God." Everyone wants to believe in its existence, and it may be unpopular to state the contrary, but it is a valid point to try to grasp what things are like and how they can be explained without it.

Any thoughts?

P.S. I am not trying to invalidate anybody's feelings here. I understand "regular love" is a very real human emotion. I am just trying to grasp the external variables that would cause people to feel this way.

Seems to me you need to define "love".

 

[Penumbra]

Interesting posts! I guess it really does come down to one's own personal perspective in relation to multiple factors. However, I suppose I must rephrase the question:

Does true love, as a universal concept ever exist? I suppose we should all scratch our heads and try and figure out how to put a definition and guidelines as to what makes "true love" TRUE LOVE. If you are all saying some form or another of "it depends," then I would be inclined to say "No. It can not exist on a universal level."

I don't think love is a universal concept to begin with, even in the general sense.

 

[McBell]

Interesting posts! I guess it really does come down to one's own personal perspective in relation to multiple factors. However, I suppose I must rephrase the question:

Does true love, as a universal concept ever exist? I suppose we should all scratch our heads and try and figure out how to put a definition and guidelines as to what makes "true love" TRUE LOVE. If you are all saying some form or another of "it depends," then I would be inclined to say "No. It can not exist on a universal level."

So then there is no concept that is "universal"?

 

[Otherright]

Love is a noumena. It can not be fully defined.