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Trinity Symbol

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by cOnfusedGrl, Jun 13, 2004.

  1. cOnfusedGrl

    cOnfusedGrl New Member

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    i was wondering if anyone can tell me if the Trinity Symbol is anti-christ or not. please reply, need the answer asap.
     
  2. Tom Davidson

    Tom Davidson Member

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    What do you mean by 'trinity symbol'

    The doctrine of the Trinity is a Christian doctrine - so anything on the subject from a non-Christian source could be suspect, but without knowing exactly what you mean, it's difficult to say.

    Thomas
     
  3. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    I'm confused as well. Do you mean the Irish Trinity knot?
     
  4. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Or this one?
     
  5. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    The doctrine of the trinity is pagan and fatastical. It was foreign to the writers of be bible, and the worship of it should be considered idolatry. Like Paul, I believe their is one God, the Father. There is also one Lord, Jesus, the father's only born son. We owe homage to these alone, and our ultimate praise to the Father and Him alone who loved us so much that he was willing to give up his Son, maybe for good, that we might live eteranally. Any symbol that represents is false doctrine must be of the anti-christ.
     
  6. Tom Davidson

    Tom Davidson Member

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    The doctrine of the trinity is pagan and fatastical.

    The above statement is anything but Christian and is in itself remarkably ill-informed with regard to the meaning of Scripture.

    Scripture is provided that man might come to know God, not that God should be circumscribed by man's inadequacies. If one cannot 'see' the doctrine of the Trinity as disclosed in Scripture - a doctrine that was taught from the very earliest days of the church - one should seek direction from those who can - suffice to say this opinion stands in direct opposition to the Founder of the Church, the Apostles, the Fathers, the saints and doctors, and the congragation of the faithful.

    Before responding, the corspondent might like to consider those texts, some as old as the gospels themselves, that specifically teach the Trinity, for example I quote from "The Divine Liturgy of St James, Apostle and brother of the Lord"

    Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, the triune light of the Godhead, which is unity subsisting in trinity, divided, yet indivisible: for the Trinity is the one God Almighty, whose glory the heavens declare, and the earth His dominion, and the sea His might, and every sentient and intellectual creature at all times proclaims His majesty: for all glory becomes Him, and honour and might, greatness and magnificence, now and ever, and to all eternity. Amen.

    Thomas
     
  7. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    The Catholic idea of the Trinity is in no way based on scripture. This was the topic of the Council of Nice in 325, and Constantine and his cronies came up with this creed (by the way, the Bishops that did not endorse this creed were killed):

    "We believe in one God, the Father, Almighty, the maker of all things visible and invisible, and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father, only Begotten (that is) of the substance of the Father; God of God, Light of Light; Very God of Very God; begotten, not made, of the same substance with the Father, by whom all things were made, that are in heaven, and that are in earth: who for us men, and for our salvation, descnded and was incarnate, and became man; suffered and rose again the third day, ascended into the heavens and will come to judge the living and the dead; and in the Holy Spirit. [That's a long sentence] But those who say there was a time when he (the Son) was not, and that He was not before he was begotten, and that he was made out of nothing, or affirm that he is of any other substanc or essence, or that the Son of God was created, and mutable, or changeable, the Catholic church doth pronounce accursed."

    Later what was regarded as a "restatement" of the Nicene Creed was made (supposedly) by Athanasius. The Creed of Athanasius:

    "We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. BUt the Godhead of the Father, Son , and Holy Ghodt, is all one: the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet there are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated; but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty; and yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God, and yet they are not three Gods but one God."

    It would be difficult to conjure up a more comprehensive collection of incongruities and inconsistencies. These "creeds" betray one of my favorite scriptures; John 17:3. There should not be a man, woman or child reading this that does not know it by heart, as it is the meaning of life. How can you know the incomprehensible, unreachable, unfathomable and utterly mystical God of the Catholic church? You cannot; and thus is the validity of the "Trinity" undone (or uncreated).
     
  8. Tom Davidson

    Tom Davidson Member

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    Hello Dan -

    It would be difficult to conjure up a more comprehensive collection of incongruities and inconsistencies.

    "And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?
    Mark 8:27

    Such comments always call to mind that for myself, many elements of Scripture were incongruous and inconsistent, until I came to understand their meaning. What you present is an opinion, but it is not an argument. My my athiest neighbour would agree with you, but in so doing include the entirely of Scripture.

    The verse you quote suggests that we might know God AND Christ - two separate Persons, unless we assume that Jesus Christ is God alone, which would utterly contradict every with with regard to the Father. Further it also implies that if you don't know one then you don't know the other.

    The assumption that Scripture should be utterly obvious to everyone is a fundamentalist fallacy - it implies that even the most cursory glance should reveal the deepest meanings of Revelation. Further, the insistentce that Scripture likewsise has only one, literal, understanding, means God, as the source and inspiration of Scriptrure, is less able than the average poet, who manages to imbue almost every word with meanings, significances and resonances far beyond its everyday usage.

    Lastly I would say that the Gospel of St John talks of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. It is up to man to seek the meaning of this, and that is the Doctrine of the Trinity.

    Thomas
     
  9. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you that scripture can hold many layers of understanding and comprehension, but those creeds are not scripture (not even by Catholic standards), they are the prose of man, and they are false. They are indicative of the Catholic standard of worshiping God in the most melancholy, esoteric and enigmatic way possible. This is the result of the pagan influence on the church early on in its life. As more and more Gentiles joined the church it changed in an effort to appeal to converts that were used to pretentious ceremony and superfluous pomp. The church adopted these attitudes to hold on to their converts, and that is why you have the most outlandish and ridiculous ceremonies practiced in the Catholic church throughout the world. In the Philippines people actually crucify themselves in their parades! Traditionalism is the only thing the holds the church together in may countries.

    I believe John 17:3 is pretty self explanatory. If we know one we know the other, not because they are one being, but because they are exactly alike in their will, purpose, and perfection. If you have seen the Son you have seen the Father. Why? Because they act, think and even look the same. At the same time, I don't believe I made any comment about everyone's capacity to understand the scripture, I said they should all be familiar with it; and I believe all are.
     
  10. Tom Davidson

    Tom Davidson Member

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    Why? Because they act, think and even look the same.

    Do I read this to mean there are two gods - identical, but different?
     
  11. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is sometimes called God in the Bible, so if you want to think of it that way; but if you're trying to get me to concur so you can shriek blaspheme at me it's not going to work. There is one God, but His Son is like Him in every conceivable way.
     
  12. Tom Davidson

    Tom Davidson Member

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    I had no intention of shrieking blaspheme.

    The Doctrine of the Trinity, if I may paraphrase, conceives how God is One and yet Three - how the Son is like the Father and yet still the Son. And the same with regard to the Spirit.
     
  13. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    The doctrine of the Trinity explains something that is really not that difficult. The whole idea of them being one being and yet three beings is not taught in the Bible, and it's not true. God the Father (Elohim) is one being; Jesus Christ is the Son of God; the Holy Ghost is the last member of the Godhead. They are three distinct beings that share the same goals, will and mind of God the Father. They all work towards His glory, but they are three distinct persons.
     
  14. Tom Davidson

    Tom Davidson Member

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    Then I must ask this question: Is Christ man, or is he God?

    If just a man, then we have something akin to Arianism - a heresy that threatened to split the church in two and the very heresy that Nicea was called to clarify - and this was the important point. The theological definition of the Council of Nicea was not fully formulated until the Council of Chalcedon in 451, but like Nicea it did not add anything to the Deposit of Faith, but clarified issues of understanding.

    Christian teaching is One God - Three Persons - and the Trinity is a revelation of the relation between the three.

    If not One God - Three Persons, then we must have One God, and then secondary and subsidiary beings, or we have three Gods.

    I don't think it's a case of being 'difficult', it's a case of not distinctions. Christianity holds that Jesus Christ is man and God; Arianism holds that Jesus Christ is man but not God, Docetism holds that Jesus Christ is God but not man.

    You say 'one will' and this is open to question: the Monophysite argument: One person, one hypostasis, one nature; the Nestorian argument: One person, two hypostases, two natures; the Catholic argument: One person, one hypostasis, two natures.

    It is certainly a profoundly complex subject, but without the Trinity Christianity would have been reduced to either something akin to Judeo/Buddhism (an unknowable and utterly transcendant paternal Deity) or something akin to Islam (There Is But One God and those who do His will).
     
  15. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    It's not difficult, but Catholics seem to enjoy the spiritual masturbation that is esoteric disertations of dogma.

    How many Colorado Avalanche are there? Maybe this will help you understand the truth.
     
  16. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    The question is not semantic. The trinity in name and meaning is a pagan and unchristian heresy. There is one God, supreme ruler of the universe, who alone is responsible for everything, the Father. He has a son, who by right of birth in heaven before anything was created is God in nature but not in authority. The Son of God did not exist throughout eternity, but instead has an origin. This is what the Bible writers believed, including the Apostles, patriarchs, prophets, etc.

    The Catholic church has been promoting the heresy of the Trinity, and claims that it is the central doctrine of its church. As Protestants, we must protest.
     
  17. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    Sorry, I didn't see the second page.
     
  18. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    The sayings of Jehovah God below contradicts the trinity of three Divine persons before creation.

    I am Jehovah, and besides Me there is no Savior (Isa. 43:11).

    Am not I Jehovah, and there is none besides Me, and there is no Savior besides Me. Look unto Me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth (Isa. 45:21, 22).

    I am Jehovah thy God, and there is no Savior besides Me (Hos. 13:4).

    It shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God we have waited for Him, and He will save us; this is Jehovah, we have waited for Him; we will rejoice and be glad in His salvation (Isa. 25:9).

    I Jehovah will give thee for a covenant to the people, for a light of the nations. I am Jehovah, that is My name, and My glory will I not give to another (Isa.42:6, 8).

    Harry
     
  19. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Jehovah is the pre-mortal Christ.
     
  20. Christ Michael

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    - YAHWEH--GOD OF THE HEBREWS



    In conceiving of Deity, man first includes all gods, then subordinates all foreign gods to his tribal deity, and finally excludes all but the one God of final and supreme value. The Jews synthesized all gods into their more sublime concept of the Lord God of Israel. The Hindus likewise combined their multifarious deities into the "one spirituality of the gods" portrayed in the Rig-Veda, while the Mesopotamians reduced their gods to the more centralized concept of Bel-Marduk. These ideas of monotheism matured all over the world not long after the appearance of Machiventa Melchizedek at Salem in Palestine. But the Melchizedek concept of Deity was unlike that of the evolutionary philosophy of inclusion, subordination, and exclusion; it was based exclusively on creative power and very soon influenced the highest deity concepts of Mesopotamia, India, and Egypt.

    The Salem religion was revered as a tradition by the Kenites and several other Canaanite tribes. And this was one of the purposes of Melchizedek's incarnation: That a religion of one God should be so fostered as to prepare the way for the earth bestowal of a Son of that one God. Michael (Jesus)could hardly come to Urantia until there existed a people believing in the Universal Father among whom he could appear.

    The Salem religion persisted among the Kenites in Palestine as their creed, and this religion as it was later adopted by the Hebrews was influenced, first, by Egyptian moral teachings; later, by Babylonian theologic thought; and lastly, by Iranian conceptions of good and evil. Factually the Hebrew religion is predicated upon the covenant between Abraham and Machiventa Melchizedek, evolutionally it is the outgrowth of many unique situational circumstances, but culturally it has borrowed freely from the religion, morality, and philosophy of the entire Levant. It is through the Hebrew religion that much of the morality and religious thought of Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Iran was transmitted to the Occidental peoples.

    1. DEITY CONCEPTS AMONG THE SEMITES
    The early Semites regarded everything as being indwelt by a spirit. There were spirits of the animal and vegetable worlds; annual spirits, the lord of progeny; spirits of fire, water, and air; a veritable pantheon of spirits to be feared and worshiped. And the teaching of Melchizedek regarding a Universal Creator never fully destroyed the belief in these subordinate spirits or nature gods.

    The progress of the Hebrews from polytheism through henotheism to monotheism was not an unbroken and continuous conceptual development. They experienced many retrogressions in the evolution of their Deity concepts, while during any one epoch there existed varying ideas of God among different groups of Semite believers. From time to time numerous terms were applied to their concepts of God, and in order to prevent confusion these various Deity titles will be defined as they pertain to the evolution of Jewish theology:

    1. Yahweh was the god of the southern Palestinian tribes, who associated this concept of deity with Mount Horeb, the Sinai volcano. Yahweh was merely one of the hundreds and thousands of nature gods which held the attention and claimed the worship of the Semitic tribes and peoples.

    2. El Elyon. For centuries after Melchizedek's sojourn at Salem his doctrine of Deity persisted in various versions but was generally connoted by the term El Elyon, the Most High God of heaven. Many Semites, including the immediate descendants of Abraham, at various times worshiped both Yahweh and El Elyon.

    3. El Shaddai. It is difficult to explain what El Shaddai stood for. This idea of God was a composite derived from the teachings of Amenemope's Book of Wisdom modified by Ikhnaton's doctrine of Aton and further influenced by Melchizedek's teachings embodied in the concept of El Elyon. But as the concept of El Shaddai permeated the Hebrew mind, it became thoroughly colored with the Yahweh beliefs of the desert.

    One of the dominant ideas of the religion of this era was the Egyptian concept of divine Providence, the teaching that material prosperity was a reward for serving El Shaddai.

    4. El. Amid all this confusion of terminology and haziness of concept, many devout believers sincerely endeavored to worship all of these evolving ideas of divinity, and there grew up the practice of referring to this composite Deity as El. And this term included still other of the Bedouin nature gods.

    5. Elohim. In Kish and Ur there long persisted Sumerian-Chaldean groups who taught a three-in-one God concept founded on the traditions of the days of Adam and Melchizedek. This doctrine was carried to Egypt, where this Trinity was worshiped under the name of Elohim, or in the singular as Eloah. The philosophic circles of Egypt and later Alexandrian teachers of Hebraic extraction taught this unity of pluralistic Gods, and many of Moses' advisers at the time of the exodus believed in this Trinity. But the concept of the trinitarian Elohim never became a real part of Hebrew theology until after they had come under the political influence of the Babylonians.

    6. Sundry names. The Semites disliked to speak the name of their Deity, and they therefore resorted to numerous appellations from time to time, such as: The Spirit of God, The Lord, The Angel of the Lord, The Almighty, The Holy One, The Most High, Adonai, The Ancient of Days, The Lord God of Israel, The Creator of Heaven and Earth, Kyrios, Jah, The Lord of Hosts, and The Father in Heaven.

    Jehovah is a term which in recent times has been employed to designate the completed concept of Yahweh which finally evolved in the long Hebrew experience. But the name Jehovah did not come into use until fifteen hundred years after the times of Jesus.
    Up to about 2000 B.C., Mount Sinai was intermittently active as a volcano, occasional eruptions occurring as late as the time of the sojourn of the Israelites in this region. The fire and smoke, together with the thunderous detonations associated with the eruptions of this volcanic mountain, all impressed and awed the Bedouins of the surrounding regions and caused them greatly to fear Yahweh. This spirit of Mount Horeb later became the god of the Hebrew Semites, and they eventually believed him to be supreme over all other gods.

    The Canaanites had long revered Yahweh, and although many of the Kenites believed more or less in El Elyon, the supergod of the Salem religion, a majority of the Canaanites held loosely to the worship of the old tribal deities. They were hardly willing to abandon their national deities in favor of an international, not to say an interplanetary, God. They were not universal-deity minded, and therefore these tribes continued to worship their tribal deities, including Yahweh and the silver and golden calves which symbolized the Bedouin herders' concept of the spirit of the Sinai volcano.

    The Syrians, while worshiping their gods, also believed in Yahweh of the Hebrews, for their prophets said to the Syrian king: "Their gods are gods of the hills; therefore they were stronger than we; but let us fight against them on the plain, and surely we shall be stronger than they."

    As man advances in culture, the lesser gods are subordinated to a supreme deity; the great Jove persists only as an exclamation. The monotheists keep their subordinate gods as spirits, demons, fates, Nereids, fairies, brownies, dwarfs, banshees, and the evil eye. The Hebrews passed through henotheism and long believed in the existence of gods other than Yahweh, but they increasingly held that these foreign deities were subordinate to Yahweh. They conceded the actuality of Chemosh, god of the Amorites, but maintained that he was subordinate to Yahweh.

    The idea of Yahweh has undergone the most extensive development of all the mortal theories of God. Its progressive evolution can only be compared with the metamorphosis of the Buddha concept in Asia, which in the end led to the concept of the Universal Absolute even as the Yahweh concept finally led to the idea of the Universal Father. But as a matter of historic fact, it should be understood that, while the Jews thus changed their views of Deity from the tribal god of Mount Horeb to the loving and merciful Creator Father of later times, they did not change his name; they continued all the way along to call this evolving concept of Deity, Yahweh.



    [from The Urantia Book]


    I hope this helps in clearing -up some confusion !!



    Cheers
     
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