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Trinity Symbol

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by cOnfusedGrl, Jun 13, 2004.

  1. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    To say that God is simply a concept, evolving over time is to ignore the Bible. Although it is true that people's view of God has changed, the Bible makes it plain that this is under the influence of God. The various names, which according to the last post refer to different "gods", are in the Bible used to describe the same person, expressions such as the god of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob make this plain. It is a literal person, not an evolving concept that is communicating with the writers and characters in the Bible, or the authors are liars and worse.
     
  2. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    Concerning the references in Isaiah and Hosea that Jehovah is the only savior, I do not believe that these verses must refer to Christ. If Jehovah is the literal father of Christ, it is appropriate for Him to say that besides Him, the Father, there is no savior, because he is the author, the cause behind the plan of salvation. Without the Father, there would be no savior. He is the one who paid the ultimate price at the cross, the possibility that he would never see his only bone Son again. Certainly Jesus loves us, but giving up one's only son is a much greater sacrifice than giving up oneself.
     
  3. Tom Davidson

    Tom Davidson Member

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    "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" John 14:6

    "I and my Father are one." John 10:30

    "All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him" Luke 10:22

    In these claims, Christ speaks with an authority that can only be vested in Him by God, and can only be His if He is God, else the Father is subject to the mediation of the Son, which Christ rejects, and which is manifest in his passion.

    Again the Trinity talks of Three Persons but One Substance - One Being - The Trinity is One God, as Boethius said, not Three Gods. It is a doctrine of relation, and is the type by which our own relation to God is established. Without is we fall into a panthesitic monism, or an inescapable dualism.

    Thomas
     
  4. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    One God has many names,and God as a Man is named Jesus Christ is one of them.

    There are many names of God which are not to be taken in vain, such as Jehovah, Jehovah God, Jehovah Zebaoth, Elohim, the Holy One of Israel, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

    The name Elohim means many gods,such as angels and men of the church. Even the Lord said to the Jews that in the Scripture ye are called gods. God's Divine Essence is called Divine Good and Divine Truth. Angels and men if regenerated by the Lord are forms good and truth.Truth can be express in many ways as there are angels in heaven. In that case they are called little gods. These little gods have power,and by their will they can destroy cities.

    The angel stretched out his hand against Jerusalem to destroy it but Jehovah repented Him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough, now stay thy hand. And David saw the angel that smote the people (2 Samuel 24. 16, 17).

    Besides other passages. Because the angels have such power they are called powers; as in David:-- Bless Jehovah, ye angels, mighty in power (Psalm 103. 20).

    It has been shown above that the Divine truth that goes forth from the Lord has all power, and that angels have power to the extent that they are receptions of Divine truth from the Lord.

    But angels are so far receptions of Divine truth as they are receptions of Divine good, for truths have all their power from good, and none apart from good. So, too, good has all its power through truths, and none apart from truths. Power springs from the conjunction of these two.

    The same is true of faith and love; for it is the same whether you say truth or faith, since every thing of faith is truth; also it is the same whether you say good or love, since every thing of love is good.

    The great power that angels have by means of truths from good is shown also from this, that when an evil spirit is merely looked at by the angels he falls into a swoon, and does not appear like a man, and this until the angel turns away his eyes.

    Such an effect is produced by the look of the eyes of angels, because the sight of angels is from the light of heaven, and the light of heaven is Divine truth. Moreover, the eyes correspond to truths from good.

    As truths from good have all power, so falsities from evil have no power at all and as all in hell are in falsities from evil they have no power against truth and good. But what power they have among themselves, and what power evil spirits have before they are cast into hell, will be told hereafter.

    Harry
     
  5. Tom Davidson

    Tom Davidson Member

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    In answer to the original question - Christians reverenced the Father, Son and holy Spirit from the very first - baptising in their Name as Christ told them.

    The doctrine of the Trinity was to some degree formalised by ecumenical Councils, which do not, as their objectors hold, get together to 'invent' doctrine, but to clarify theological issues amongst the bishops of the church, to ensure that the one gospel is being preached everywhere. Thus the doctrine is much older than the Council that proclaimed it.

    All the churches of Antiquity - the Roman, the Greek, the Coptic, the Antiochian, even the Malabar Syriac Church of India, teach and uphold the Doctrine of the Trinity.

    It's formal rejection by the Protestant reformers did not take place intil the sixteenth century.

    It is a doctrine implicit to pre-Reformation Christianity

    Therefore, whether one supports it or not, it cannot be said to be 'anti-Christian'
     
  6. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    To claim that the council that first formulated the doctrine of the trinity was simply an effort to unify doctrines that were already being taught is truly revisionist. The Council of Nic├Ža did not unify or uphold the commonly held belief of the majority of bishops at the time that Jesus was the literal Son of God.

    The fact that most "Christians" today hold to a particular doctrine is no evidence of its validity. When has the majority ever been right?
     
  7. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    There is no evidence than any apostle literally followed the command to baptize in no name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. They instead baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ; laid hands on those baptized and they received the Holy Ghost. As a matter of fact, the name of the Holy Spirit does not appear in scriptures (It would be strange to name a spirit), so the command cannot be literally followed.
     
  8. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    How is it possible for someone to receive authority or anything else from himself? The fact is that he can't.

    Jesus, as the Son of God, received everything from His Father. He cannot therefore be the supreme ruler of the universe as His Father is. He cannot be the only immortal God, because he was dead. There are many differences between the Father and Son, but there are similarities.

    I am human, therefore my son is human. The Son of God can also rightly be called God, because he is God's Son, but just as my son has authority over my whole house, but has no authority over me, so the Son of God has a God, the Father.
     
  9. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    The spirit is part of the person's being,and cannot be divided from the person. So how can there be third person of the Holy Trinity be divided from its being or person Jesus Christ? Can we divide our spirit from our self? The spirit is the man himself.

    Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit means Divine Truth,and the Truth is the Word,and the Word is Our Lord Jesus Christ.Amen

    Harry
     
  10. Christ Michael

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    - THE PARADISE CREATOR SONS



    THE Creator Sons are the makers and rulers of the local universes of time and space. These universe creators and sovereigns are of dual origin, embodying the characteristics of God the Father and God the Son. But each Creator Son is different from every other; each is unique in nature as well as in personality; each is the "only-begotten Son" of the perfect deity ideal of his origin.

    In the vast work of organizing, evolving, and perfecting a local universe, these high Sons always enjoy the sustaining approval of the Universal Father. The relationship of the Creator Sons with their Paradise Father is touching and superlative. No doubt the profound affection of the Deity parents for their divine progeny is the wellspring of that beautiful and well-nigh divine love which even mortal parents bear their children.

    These primary Paradise Sons are personalized as Michaels. As they go forth from Paradise to found their universes, they are known as Creator Michaels. When settled in supreme authority, they are called Master Michaels. Sometimes we refer to the sovereign of your universe of Nebadon as Christ Michael. Always and forever do they reign after the "order of Michael," that being the designation of the first Son of their order and nature.

    The original or first-born Michael has never experienced incarnation as a material being, but seven times he passed through the experience of spiritual creature ascent on the seven circuits of Havona, advancing from the outer spheres to the innermost circuit of the central creation. The order of Michael knows the grand universe from one end to the other; there is no essential experience of any of the children of time and space in which the Michaels have not personally participated; they are in fact partakers not only of the divine nature but also of your nature, meaning all natures, from the highest to the lowest.

    The original Michael is the presiding head of the primary Paradise Sons when they assemble for conference at the center of all things. Not long since on Uversa we recorded a universal broadcast of a conclave extraordinary on the eternal Isle of one hundred fifty thousand Creator Sons assembled in the parental presence and engaged in deliberations having to do with the progress of the unification and stabilization of the universe of universes. This was a selected group of Sovereign Michaels, sevenfold bestowal Sons.

    1. ORIGIN AND NATURE OF CREATOR SONS


    When the fullness of absolute spiritual ideation in the Eternal Son encounters the fullness of absolute personality concept in the Universal Father, when such a creative union is finally and fully attained, when such absolute identity of spirit and such infinite oneness of personality concept occur, then, right then and there, without the loss of anything of personality or prerogative by either of the infinite Deities, there flashes into full-fledged being a new and original Creator Son, the only-begotten Son of the perfect ideal and the powerful idea whose union produces this new creator personality of power and perfection.

    Each Creator Son is the only-begotten and only-begettable offspring of the perfect union of the original concepts of the two infinite and eternal and perfect minds of the ever-existent Creators of the universe of universes. There never can be another such Son because each Creator Son is the unqualified, finished, and final expression and embodiment of all of every phase of every feature of every possibility of every divine reality that could, throughout all eternity, ever be found in, expressed by, or evolved from, those divine creative potentials which united to bring this Michael Son into existence. Each Creator Son is the absolute of the united deity concepts which constitute his divine origin.


    The divine natures of these Creator Sons are, in principle, derived equally from the attributes of both Paradise parents. All partake of the fullness of the divine nature of the Universal Father and of the creative prerogatives of the Eternal Son, but as we observe the practical outworking of the Michael functions in the universes, we discern apparent differences. Some Creator Sons appear to be more like God the Father; others more like God the Son. For example: The trend of administration in the universe of Nebadon suggests that its Creator and ruling Son is one whose nature and character more resemble that of the Eternal Mother Son. It should be further stated that some universes are presided over by Paradise Michaels who appear equally to resemble God the Father and God the Son. And these observations are in no sense implied criticisms; they are simply a recording of fact.

    I do not know the exact number of Creator Sons in existence, but I have good reasons for believing that there are more than seven hundred thousand. Now, we know that there are exactly seven hundred thousand Unions of Days and no more are being created. We also observe that the ordained plans of the present universe age seem to indicate that one Union of Days is to be stationed in each local universe as the counseling ambassador of the Trinity. We note further that the constantly increasing number of Creator Sons already exceeds the stationary number of the Unions of Days. But concerning the destiny of the Michaels beyond seven hundred thousand, we have never been informed.



    [from The Urantia Book]

    Jesus Christ is ONE of many Sons, an offspring between The Father and Eternal Son !!


    Cheers
     
  11. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    I believe that the Bible alone is the standard for faith and action. Like the doctrine of the trinity, I believe this book of Urantia to be of pagan origin. At least it is in plain contradiction to the Bible. The authors of the Bible believed that there was ONE God, the Father. They also believed that God had ONE BORN (begotten) SON. Anything contrary to this is antithetical to the Bible and Christianity.

    There is no doubt that God has more sons, the angels are sons of God, they are created sons. We are sons of God, adopted sons in Christ, who is our elder brother.

    The world is full of strange beliefs; do not believe a lie. Turn to Jesus who alone is the Wisdom of God. When you know the ONE true God and Jesus Christ who He sent, then and only then will you have eternal life.
     
  12. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    The Formation of the Doctrine of the Trinity

    Follow the link above to read about the formation of the doctrine of the trinity. You might be suprised.

    My compliments to the author from presenttruth.info who has generously provided this book on this website.
     
  13. Tom Davidson

    Tom Davidson Member

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    There seems to be some confusion here -

    The Doctrine of the Trinity does NOT propose three Gods;

    The Doctrine of the Trinity does NOT propose that Christ is NOT begotten of the Father;

    The argument of the Doctrine is based entirely on Scripture.
     
  14. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    Actually, I have detected at least three different versions of the trinity doctrine on this site.

    1. There is one god who appears as different people depending on the circumstances, sometimes refered to as the "Jesus only" trinity.

    2. The second suggests that there are three distinct people that make up one "God" (This is not technically the trinity, but a form of polytheism.)

    3. The third trinity doctrine is probably the orthodox trinity. This doctrine holds that there is one substance, but still three persons that make one god. (This is described as a mystery, because of course no one can understand such a thing. So we cannot know God, and we have no hope for eternal life.)

    Only in the second is the possibility of a father-son relationship possible, but it can not be logically held that there is one God. Instead there are three.

    The first allows for the possibility of one god, but makes the gospel a sham in which that one god is just pretending. As a matter of fact, all of these formulations of the doctrine of the trinity have an element of pretense. If truly believed, most of what Jesus said about his Father is a lie, and most of what the old testament writers said about there being only one God alone is a lie.

    In fact, the trinity is a lie. The truth is that there is ONE God, the Father. There is one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father. Only to these may we give praise. We are to pray to the Father in Jesus' name. By the power of the Father in Jesus' name are we saved.
     
  15. Tom Davidson

    Tom Davidson Member

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    This ignores the prologue of the gospel of St John:

    1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...
    1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

    How do you explain this?
     
  16. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    1. Obviously the Word is NOT the God he was with in the first part of the verse. (It isn't logical to say that you are with yourself.)

    2. The second part says that the Word was God. This makes sense that a being that is the Son of God is also God. The son of a human is a human, and no less of a human, but is still under his father.

    3. The Greek actually consists of a word that was untranslated. The verse would better be translated "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God."

    It is clear from the rest of the chapter that the character identified as the Word, although exalted before the incarnation, was not the supreme ruler of the universe, only His Father is called God in the remaining verses of this chapter. See John 1:12, 13, 18.

    Do a quick search for the term, "God the Father". Then look for "God the Son". It is clear, by the weight of evidence, who is the supreme ruler, the one and only potentate, the only true God, and the only immortal God. The Father alone is God, in a way that no other being can ever be, even the Son of God, who indeed is exalted above any other.
     
  17. Tom Davidson

    Tom Davidson Member

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    1 - So The Gospels are 'illogical' when it comes to something that transcends human understanding?

    2 - Your second point is invalid. if the son of a human is human, then the son is no less human than the father, all that differs between them is their relation to each other. In essence, in energy and in power they are equal. Likewise, another individual who is not a son by relation shares everything that the son is and has, except the relation (other than that of species)

    You seem stuck on the relation of Father to Son - I do not question that and uphold everything you say in that regard, as does the Doctrine of the Trinity - my point is that you appear to keep saying 'the Son is God' and then 'only the Father is God' - anything the Son has is because the Father gave it to him, and the Father gave everything to his Son without condition - including the fullness of Deity.

    Either Jesus Christ, the Word, is One with the Father and proceeds from Him, or we have two Gods, or the Gospel is obviously wrong (note 'logic' is a human construct).
     
  18. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    I do not claim that the Gospel is illogical. It is illogical only if the false doctrine of the trinity is forced on it. I have no doubt that there are things in the bible that are beyond human understanding. These things are not explained in the Bible, but the Bible declares that,

    "The secret [things belong] unto the LORD our God: but those [things which are] revealed [belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that [we] may do all the words of this law." Deut 29:29

    Why would God choose a relationship, that of a Father to an only born son, so familiar to people to explain the relationship between Himself and His Son if no such relationship exists? If God were to claim such a relationship, would Satan not be correct, that God is a liar? In fact the Bible is quite logical. Jesus is the literal born Son of God, born before anything was created.

    Fundamental to the gospel is the relationship between the Father and His Son. An understanding of what the Father was willing to give up to save us is a measure of how much He loves us.


    "We love him, because he first loved us." 1 John 4:19

    Regarding the first point you are quite correct. As a being, the Son is like his father in every way. The scriptures say that the Son is a perfect representation of His Father. Even as a human, the life of Jesus could not be taken from Him. He had to give it up. As a being, Jesus is like his Father in every way.

    Concerning the second point, you are quite incorrect. A son is not like any other individual unrelated to his father, and a son although he is like his father is not equal in power or authority. The son of a king is obviously different from the son of a pauper, and although he has great authority does not reign over the kingdom and has NO authority over the king. The prince only has the power and authority that is given to him by the king. Those in the kingdom pay homage to the prince out of respect to the king. This is the true relationship between the Father and Son.

    Is there more than one god? Obviously. Paul says so:

    "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

    But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him." 1 Cor. 8:5, 6

    So by recognizing that there is more than one God, we are not polytheists. Instead, by worshiping the one true God and praising the one Lord, we are Christians, monotheists. Is it right to praise the Lord? God tells us to. Following the command of God cannot be wrong.
     
  19. Tom Davidson

    Tom Davidson Member

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    You said Scripture was illogical - not I.

    A son is not like any other individual unrelated to his father, and a son although he is like his father is not equal in power or authority. The son of a king is obviously different from the son of a pauper, and although he has great authority does not reign over the kingdom and has NO authority over the king.

    No - here you are wrong and this points to my argument. In essence, in substance and in being, there is no difference between a prince and a pauper - the only difference is 'accidental' and is in fact determined by relation - in this instance biological - this prince is the issue of that king, this pauper is the issue of that pauper - but both are human, no more and no less.

    With regard to the Son, the relation between God and Jesus Christ is not biological so what is it? And how is it? In essence, in substance, or in being? Or in all three?

    The whole issue of the Trinity was not an invention - but the resolution of the question - what is the relation between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit by whom the Son was conceived?

    The Doctrine of the Trinity protected the Divine Birthright of Christ as the Son, whereas Arius (and others) would have it that Jesus Christ was a man, and that his 'sonship' was a metaphor, but not a reality.

    Catholics believe that Christ is the Son of God, and God as much as God is, wholly of that essence, that substance and that being - not partly, nor effectively, nor in a sense, but utterly and entirely, because for everything the father has, the Son has also, because the Father gave it to him - and furthermore that Christ is totally man, and was a man as much as any man is.

    Lastly 'no man has seen God' and yet we praise the Father, but a father is not a father without a son, so even as God the Father, it is through the Son that this is made known to us.

    The Trinity is a Mystery of One in Three and Three in One - when the Catholic worships any Person of the Trinity he worships the One True God.
     
  20. dharveymi

    dharveymi Member

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    Not to belabor the point, but I have searched and cannot find where I claimed that the scripture was "illogical". I do believe that the doctrine of the trinity is illogical, but since that cannot be found in the scriptures, I stand by my assertion.
     
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