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Trinity Symbol

1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...

1. Obviously the Word is NOT the God he was with in the first part of the verse. (It isn't logical to say that you are with yourself.)
 

dharveymi

Member
Ahh! But I do not believe that the person He was with was Himself. Instead, I believe that the person He was with was His Father. Did you read the rest of the post?
 
So the third phrase of the verse 'and the word was God' is erroneous?

And if not, when you said "Obviously the Word is NOT the God he was with in the first part of the verse. (It isn't logical to say that you are with yourself.)" what God is the Word?
 

dharveymi

Member
The Word is identified in the remaining verses of the chapter as the Son of God, not the only true God, not the Supreme ruler of the Universe, not the one and only Potentate, not the only immortal God. Jesus is the Word, the Son of God. God in every way that a son is like his father, but without the authority over His Father. Instead, the Son is subject to his Father. He is subject to His will, His authority, and His Kingdom. It is the Son that sits on the right hand of His Father. The Son is subject to his Father in every way but over everything and everybody else. This is clear from the words of Jesus, and the rest of scripture.
 

dharveymi

Member
The difference between the prince and the pauper is real. A previous post claims that the only difference between them is accident. An "accident" is the reason for their difference, but their difference is none-the-less real. (I do not believe that those in power are there by accident, but that is another topic.)

For example, if one where to believe that the only difference between a prince and a pauper is an "accident" then I could start World War III, I could afford to purchase an island, dictate who would rule the nations, cause the sun to stand still, make someone love another, grant eternal life, or do away with evil. I, of course, cannot do any of these things (but if I could, it would be reasonable to assume that one day my son might also be able to do at least some of these things.)

This is the case with the Son of God. Catholics believe that the Father and the Son are of the same substance (consubstantial.) Which, face it, just doesn't make sense and is contrary to the Bible. How could two beings share the same substance and still be two beings? Well, they could be Siamese twins, but this would contradict the words of Jesus that His Father had forsaken Him. They believe that they are the same age (coeternal.) This also doesn't make sense and is contrary to the Bible. How can a Father be the same age as his Son? They say that the Father and the Son are of equal authority. Jesus said that the Father was greater than Him.

I'm a mathematician by training; 3=1 and 1=3 only makes sense in imaginary systems, like the Trinity. It is the result of someone's imagination, not the plain word of God.
 
- THE PARADISE CREATOR SONS



THE Creator Sons are the makers and rulers of the local universes of time and space. These universe creators and sovereigns are of dual origin, embodying the characteristics of God the Father and God the Son. But each Creator Son is different from every other; each is unique in nature as well as in personality; each is the "only-begotten Son" of the perfect deity ideal of his origin.

In the vast work of organizing, evolving, and perfecting a local universe, these high Sons always enjoy the sustaining approval of the Universal Father. The relationship of the Creator Sons with their Paradise Father is touching and superlative. No doubt the profound affection of the Deity parents for their divine progeny is the wellspring of that beautiful and well-nigh divine love which even mortal parents bear their children.

These primary Paradise Sons are personalized as Michaels. As they go forth from Paradise to found their universes, they are known as Creator Michaels. When settled in supreme authority, they are called Master Michaels. Sometimes we refer to the sovereign of your universe of Nebadon as Christ Michael. Always and forever do they reign after the "order of Michael," that being the designation of the first Son of their order and nature.

The original or first-born Michael has never experienced incarnation as a material being, but seven times he passed through the experience of spiritual creature ascent on the seven circuits of Havona, advancing from the outer spheres to the innermost circuit of the central creation. The order of Michael knows the grand universe from one end to the other; there is no essential experience of any of the children of time and space in which the Michaels have not personally participated; they are in fact partakers not only of the divine nature but also of your nature, meaning all natures, from the highest to the lowest.

The original Michael is the presiding head of the primary Paradise Sons when they assemble for conference at the center of all things. Not long since on Uversa we recorded a universal broadcast of a conclave extraordinary on the eternal Isle of one hundred fifty thousand Creator Sons assembled in the parental presence and engaged in deliberations having to do with the progress of the unification and stabilization of the universe of universes. This was a selected group of Sovereign Michaels, sevenfold bestowal Sons.

1. ORIGIN AND NATURE OF CREATOR SONS


When the fullness of absolute spiritual ideation in the Eternal Son encounters the fullness of absolute personality concept in the Universal Father, when such a creative union is finally and fully attained, when such absolute identity of spirit and such infinite oneness of personality concept occur, then, right then and there, without the loss of anything of personality or prerogative by either of the infinite Deities, there flashes into full-fledged being a new and original Creator Son, the only-begotten Son of the perfect ideal and the powerful idea whose union produces this new creator personality of power and perfection.

Each Creator Son is the only-begotten and only-begettable offspring of the perfect union of the original concepts of the two infinite and eternal and perfect minds of the ever-existent Creators of the universe of universes. There never can be another such Son because each Creator Son is the unqualified, finished, and final expression and embodiment of all of every phase of every feature of every possibility of every divine reality that could, throughout all eternity, ever be found in, expressed by, or evolved from, those divine creative potentials which united to bring this Michael Son into existence. Each Creator Son is the absolute of the united deity concepts which constitute his divine origin.


The divine natures of these Creator Sons are, in principle, derived equally from the attributes of both Paradise parents. All partake of the fullness of the divine nature of the Universal Father and of the creative prerogatives of the Eternal Son, but as we observe the practical outworking of the Michael functions in the universes, we discern apparent differences. Some Creator Sons appear to be more like God the Father; others more like God the Son. For example: The trend of administration in the universe of Nebadon suggests that its Creator and ruling Son is one whose nature and character more resemble that of the Eternal Mother Son. It should be further stated that some universes are presided over by Paradise Michaels who appear equally to resemble God the Father and God the Son. And these observations are in no sense implied criticisms; they are simply a recording of fact.

I do not know the exact number of Creator Sons in existence, but I have good reasons for believing that there are more than seven hundred thousand. Now, we know that there are exactly seven hundred thousand Unions of Days and no more are being created. We also observe that the ordained plans of the present universe age seem to indicate that one Union of Days is to be stationed in each local universe as the counseling ambassador of the Trinity. We note further that the constantly increasing number of Creator Sons already exceeds the stationary number of the Unions of Days. But concerning the destiny of the Michaels beyond seven hundred thousand, we have never been informed.



[from The Urantia Book]

Jesus Christ is ONE of many Sons, an offspring between The Father and Eternal Son !!


Cheers
 

dharveymi

Member
I think we have seen this post before. It's value is not increased with repetition. There is no evidence for the assertions of the author. There is still no reason to believe that the author of the quoted book is anything other than possessed by a spirit other than the Spirit of God, and there is still less reason to accept that anything stated is based on anything like reality.
 
dharveymi said:
I think we have seen this post before. It's value is not increased with repetition. There is no evidence for the assertions of the author. There is still no reason to believe that the author of the quoted book is anything other than possessed by a spirit other than the Spirit of God, and there is still less reason to accept that anything stated is based on anything like reality.


And what proof do you have for your stated beliefs ? I question the CREDIBILITY of the people who claim their truth is derived from a "holy book" that has "talking snakes and donkeys" in it. Your ignorance in things spiritual in no way negates what The Urantia Book has to say!!!



Cheers
 
. THE GIFT OF REVELATION



Revelation is evolutionary but always progressive. Down through the ages of a world's history, the revelations of religion are ever-expanding and successively more enlightening. It is the mission of revelation to sort and censor the successive religions of evolution. But if revelation is to exalt and upstep the religions of evolution, then must such divine visitations portray teachings which are not too far removed from the thought and reactions of the age in which they are presented. Thus must and does revelation always keep in touch with evolution. Always must the religion of revelation be limited by man's capacity of receptivity.


But regardless of apparent connection or derivation, the religions of revelation are always characterized by a belief in some Deity of final value and in some concept of the survival of personality identity after death.

Evolutionary religion is sentimental, not logical. It is man's reaction to belief in a hypothetical ghost-spirit world--the human belief-reflex, excited by the realization and fear of the unknown. Revelatory religion is propounded by the real spiritual world; it is the response of the superintellectual cosmos to the mortal hunger to believe in, and depend upon, the universal Deities. Evolutionary religion pictures the circuitous gropings of humanity in quest of truth; revelatory religion is that very truth.

There have been many events of religious revelation but only five of epochal significance. These were as follows:

1. The Dalamatian teachings. The true concept of the First Source and Center was first promulgated on Urantia by the one hundred corporeal members of Prince Caligastia's staff. This expanding revelation of Deity went on for more than three hundred thousand years until it was suddenly terminated by the planetary secession and the disruption of the teaching regime. Except for the work of Van, the influence of the Dalamatian revelation was practically lost to the whole world. Even the Nodites had forgotten this truth by the time of Adam's arrival. Of all who received the teachings of the one hundred, the red men held them longest, but the idea of the Great Spirit was but a hazy concept in Amerindian religion when contact with Christianity greatly clarified and strengthened it.( see Lucifer Manifesto thread)

2. The Edenic teachings. Adam and Eve again portrayed the concept of the Father of all to the evolutionary peoples. The disruption of the first Eden halted the course of the Adamic revelation before it had ever fully started. But the aborted teachings of Adam were carried on by the Sethite priests, and some of these truths have never been entirely lost to the world. The entire trend of Levantine religious evolution was modified by the teachings of the Sethites. But by 2500 B.C. mankind had largely lost sight of the revelation sponsored in the days of Eden.

3. Melchizedek of Salem. This emergency Son of Nebadon inaugurated the third revelation of truth on Urantia. The cardinal precepts of his teachings were trust and faith. He taught trust in the omnipotent beneficence of God and proclaimed that faith was the act by which men earned God's favor. His teachings gradually commingled with the beliefs and practices of various evolutionary religions and finally developed into those theologic systems present on Urantia at the opening of the first millennium after Christ.

4. Jesus of Nazareth. Christ Michael presented for the fourth time to Urantia the concept of God as the Universal Father, and this teaching has generally persisted ever since. The essence of his teaching was love and service, the loving worship which a creature son voluntarily gives in recognition of, and response to, the loving ministry of God his Father; the freewill service which such creature sons bestow upon their brethren in the joyous realization that in this service they are likewise serving God the Father.

5. The Urantia Papers. The papers, of which this is one, constitute the most recent presentation of truth to the mortals of Urantia. These papers differ from all previous revelations, for they are not the work of a single universe personality but a composite presentation by many beings. But no revelation short of the attainment of the Universal Father can ever be complete. All other celestial ministrations are no more than partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions in time and space. While such admissions as this may possibly detract from the immediate force and authority of all revelations, the time has arrived on Urantia when it is advisable to make such frank statements, even at the risk of weakening the future influence and authority of this, the most recent of the revelations of truth to the mortal races of Urantia.



[from The Urantia Book]


P.S. Dharveymi, in your very LIMITED knowledge you only know very LITTLE about number four !! There is a long road ahead of you to get where I am but with your kind of attitude I can see that you will never get there !!!



Cheers
 

Lightkeeper

Well-Known Member
P.S. Dharveymi, in your very LIMITED knowledge you only know very LITTLE about number four !! There is a long road ahead of you to get where I am but with your kind of attitude I can see that you will never get there !!!

***MOD POST***

Please no belittling of other people and their beliefs or where they are on their spiritual path. This forum is about the many roads that can be taken and honoring that.
 

dharveymi

Member
It's great to know that someone is out there, so Hi!

Now, back to the road to Urantia. You know I'm not real sure about how long the road is, but I am sure about not getting there.

Let's break this down. Epistemology is the study or a theory of the nature and grounds of knowledge especially with reference to its limits and validity. There are many different assumptions a person could make about the nature of truth and how one knows what is true; for example,

1. One could believe that TRUTH can be known by what is observed.

2. One could believe that TRUTH can be known by whether it is in agreement with some authority such as the Bible.

3. One could believe that TRUTH can be known by what one experiences or even imagines.

4. One could believe that TRUTH can be known by whether it is logical.

There are many such assumptions that can be made. I admit that by definition they are unprovable, and as such are always open to debate. It is possible for people who hold very different epistemological assumptions to share a common name such as Christian.

On the other hand, it is quite rational to approach those with a well established philosophy on common ground or to at least explain the basis for their differences in world view.

I am a Protestent Christian. I believe that the Bible is my only standard for faith and action. I am in good company, for thousands of years, Jews and Christians have depended on the writting of the holy men that wrote the Bible for comfort, inspiration, and a knowledge of the God who they serve.

I admit that I differ with some Christians in that I do not accept the authority of the "church" when it contradicts the Word of God, and will happily discuss this difference, but am also happy to concede that it is an assumption that seperates us, and as such cannot be resolved by simple rational discussion.

Now, if there is some other basis for TRUTH, it is the responsibility of the teller to explain this NEW source of TRUTH. It is the height of arrogance to employ any other than accepted channels of truth without expressly identifying those NEW sources. Once identified they can be examined and accepted if found to have merit or rejected if they are found wanting.

So citizens of Urantia, I'm glad you are reading these posts and welcome, look around, tell us where you are and how you got there. It might be a place I'd like to visit, but I'm afraid you are right about me not getting there, and I won't be buying my ticket any time soon.
 

Dr Sani Udu

New Member
I always say the matter is too simple for debate.
There is no trinity in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Can you put your finger in the particular places Jesus himself said that he is God,
or he is son of God or that God is 3-in-1, or where Mary the virgin, his mother,
ever called him God?

Or can anyone claim to know Jesus better than Jesus knows himself?
Or can anyone claim to know God better than Jesus himself.
Or can anyone claim to know Jesus better than his mother?

Jesus Christ (AS) says he is pure servant of God and that he had no powers
except those which God gave him. When he cried `Oh God, have you forsaken
me?' he told the whole story: there is only one God, the creator of Jesus (AS).

I thought the internal contradiction in the doctrine of trinity was so profound that
some Christian denominations removed it completely from their editions of the
Bible. The Jehovahs, for instance.

The religion Jesus Christ professed (He did not call it Christianity! or you show
yourself in the Bible where he ever did) was and is unabashedly monotheistic.


Sani
www.RunToGod.net
[email protected]
 

dharveymi

Member
I especially appreciate the last post, it is so close to the truth, but still misses the mark.

I have a son. I love him very much. If anything where to happen to him, I would be devastated. I could have another child but it would never replace my first born. Jesus was not created. I did not create my son. I am responsible for his existence, but if I had created him I could simply create another just like him if the need should arise. I cannot. He is one of a kind. The relationship we share is like no other I could ever have with another being. I love him beyond measure. I would gladly give my life in his place, if the choice was ever presented.

The sacrifice that the Father made at the cross was this kind of sacrifice. God cannot give His life for sinful man. If he could have, he would have. The Bible declares that everything is upheld by His hands. If God were to die, everything would cease to exist. He cannot die under any circumstances. But a greater sacrifice was provided. God sent His Son, knowing that if Jesus were to sin, He would forever be seperated from the One with whom he shared the closest relationship. But, he loved us so much that He was willing to risk that possibility.

No, it is true that Jesus was not God, the supreme ruler of the universe, the one true God, or the only immortal God, but he is the only born Son of God, a being so exalted and worthy of worship, that His sacrifice represented a love for fallen man beyond anything that could be described or imagined.
 
I think a similar thread has occured. There is another Book of Urantia thread that was started in debates. Does this book have any scriptural backing? Personally, I thought it resembles something out of a fantasy novel gone haywire.
 

dharveymi

Member
Most of the participants of this thread have based their arguments on scripture to some degree.

Concerning the book of Urantia, I think this quote from the Urantia Foundation website speaks for itself, "The Urantia Book, first published by the Urantia Foundation in 1955, was authored by celestial beings as a special revelation to our planet, Urantia."

The scripture says to test the spirits, if they are not according to the "law and the prophets", that is because there is no "light" in them. In other words, in order for a book or any other work to be based on scripture, it must not contradict the other authors of the Bible. There is a golden thread of unbroken truth that extends from Genesis to Revelation, that speaks of the Father's love for us in sending His only born Son to die for us, his sinful enemies, at Calvary and His plan to bring us back into harmony with Him.
 
dharveymi said:
Most of the participants of this thread have based their arguments on scripture to some degree.

Concerning the book of Urantia, I think this quote from the Urantia Foundation website speaks for itself, "The Urantia Book, first published by the Urantia Foundation in 1955, was authored by celestial beings as a special revelation to our planet, Urantia."

The scripture says to test the spirits, if they are not according to the "law and the prophets", that is because there is no "light" in them. In other words, in order for a book or any other work to be based on scripture, it must not contradict the other authors of the Bible. There is a golden thread of unbroken truth that extends from Genesis to Revelation, that speaks of the Father's love for us in sending His only born Son to die for us, his sinful enemies, at Calvary and His plan to bring us back into harmony with Him.


I guess Jesus' gospel was not according to the "law and the prophets", so they crucified him !!! Maybe there was another reason I am not aware of ? Please enlighten me !! Thanx.


Cheers
 

dharveymi

Member
On one level Jesus was crucified to placate the rulers of a subjegated people by the Romans. On a deeper level, Jesus was crucified to maintain the religio-political power of the Scribes and Pharisees. On an even deeper level, Jesus died at the hands of the evil one who in a fit of rage when he realized that his days were numbered after he could not cause Jesus to yeild to his temtations, murdered the beloved of the universe, the one and only begotten of the Father. But, on the deepest level, Jesus died to demonstrate how much God loves us. The Father would allow those that hated Him to kill his Son who He love more than anything. Jesus would voluntarily give up His life, His eternal life, not because he wanted to die, but because He trusted His Father, because He loved His Father and He loved us.
 
Jesus died to save us from our sins. It was a plan that God put in place as soon as Adam and Eve had sinned. Jesus could have freed himself at any time during His captivity and crucifixion. However, He did not because His death was necessary for our salvation. Satan did not want Christ to die. He knew the Scripture just as well as God does and he knew that if Christ died, he would be defeated. On several occasions, Satan even utilizied Christ's own disciples to stop His crucifixion.
 
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