Trinitarians' interpretation of "us"

[PHOTOTAKER]

hebrew gramer:
Elohim has plural morphological form in Hebrew, but it is used with singular verbs and adjectives in the Hebrew text when the particular meaning of the God of Israel (a singular deity) is traditionally understood. Thus the very first words of the Bible are bre**** bara Elohim, where bara ??? is a verb inflected as third person singular masculine perfect. If Elohim were an ordinary plural word, then the plural verb form bar'u ???? would have been used in this sentence instead. Such plural grammatical forms are in fact found in cases where Elohim has semantically plural reference (not referring to the God of Israel).

In most English translations of the Bible (e.g. the King James Version), the letter G in "god" is capitalized in cases where Elohim refers to the God of Israel, but there is no distinction between upper and lower case in the Hebrew text.

i copied and pasted seemed relavent, how ever this fail to notice places were it is the God of Isrial but then still plural stance.

 

[Halcyon]

Not necessarily, especially since the Bible is an anthology rather than 2 books stuck together (for the Christians, anyway).

The thing is, if you have different authors writing to different audiences in different times and cultures for different purposes, it's hardly surprising if there are differences in writing styles.

Actually, this is exactly why i believe the use of Elohim in Genesis is plural and meant as Us rather than I.
Because i believe that the first two genesis myths are from a polytheistic religion, possibly Canaanite in origin. Therefore the Elohim they write about are plural, the gods of the Canaanites.
Thus the use of Elohim was kept plural in the first two myths of genesis. When the Hebrews absorbed the Canaanite mythology into their own culture, they kept the word but changed its meaning to a singular for the subsequent books that they wrote.

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

Actually, this is exactly why i believe the use of Elohim in Genesis is plural and meant as Us rather than I.
Because i believe that the first two genesis myths are from a polytheistic religion, possibly Canaanite in origin. Therefore the Elohim they write about are plural, the gods of the Canaanites.
Thus the use of Elohim was kept plural in the first two myths of genesis. When the Hebrews absorbed the Canaanite mythology into their own culture, they kept the word but changed its meaning to a singular for the subsequent books that they wrote.

wernt at one point the canaanite also have a belief in the God of Aberham?

 

[writer]

9 Sure Elohim is used throughout the bible, along with various other names for God, but only in Genesis 1 is it translated as the "Royal We", nowhere else.
Sounds like royal imagination.
What's Genesis 1:27? The unroyal "He"?

2 It was and still is normal language for Kings or Queens to speak of themselves as "us"and "our"
It was only natural to use that form when translating the Bible to refer to God speaking.
It's natural cuz God, by nature,'s Father, Son, Spirit

19 I don't think I made myself very clear. Who is the "us" referring to when in Genesis it says "let US make man in our image"?
God, He (Genesis 1:27), the 3-1

 

[Halcyon]

wernt at one point the canaanite also have a belief in the God of Aberham?

That's complicated phototaker, and isn't something you're likely to believe.

The God of Abraham was El.
El was the head of the Canaanite pantheon, like Zeus was the head of the Greek and Ra the head of the Egyption.

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

That's complicated phototaker, and isn't something you're likely to believe.

The God of Abraham was El.
El was the head of the Canaanite pantheon, like Zeus was the head of the Greek and Ra the head of the Egyption.

mostly what i know about the Land of Canaan is what is in the bible... i know that they became evil and joshia distroyed them... gen 37:1 And Jacob dwelt in the land wherein his father was a stranger, in the land of Canaan. i had to go back and thank about it for a min... my bad

 

[roli]

Actually I've heard it explained that Elohim can be interpreted as both plural and singular. Either way, in none of the verses that you mentioned is God making reference to himself. In almost every instance that I'm aware of in which God references himself he uses the pronoun "I". For some reason this particular passage he uses the pronoun "us". I suggest that it's because there were more than one being involved in the creation.

Yes, maybe explained by common folks,but ask a theologian or study it yourself from such sources and you will see where most stand regarding the plurality of God in the old Testament
The verses that I listed show the trinity,the individual components of the God head
God,Holy Spirit,Jesus.
Can we figure it all out using empirical evidence,logic or knowledge,no,does it make sense no,but we are not here to explain God,or try to.
The mention of the Holy Spirit,Jesus ,and God are used interchangablely throughout scripture.
They make up and represent the power,presence,and person of God and without one you don'rt have the fullness of God.

 

[roli]

I don't think I made myself very clear. Who is the "us" referring to when in Genesis it says "let US make man in our image"?

Gen 1 - God is mentioned first in the beginning ,"God"
Gen 2 - The Holy Spirit moved upon the waters.
Jesus is mentioned of being in the beginning Col,John 1 ,Heb
We have all 3 in the beginning ,do many accept that ,"NO" but that is another thread

 

[firstsamuel]

I agree with the points Halcyon has made and I will go further, in saying... that when God says 'Let us make man in our image." he is taking into account all of the heavenly hosts. Angels, ArchAngels, and the original creator.

God is the DNA of everything. There is also mention that God created all things thru Jesus Christ. Ephesians 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ."

It doesn't say that God is the same person as all of his heavenly host or as Jesus. Jesus says that he is so like God that if you have seen him, you have seen the Father. Then again, John calls Jesus the only begotten. Could it be that Jesus was the only being that the original God created?

Thinking in this vein makes me think about the character of every living thing and wonder if the image of God isn't somehow represented in all of them?

 

[Katzpur]

The mention of the Holy Spirit,Jesus ,and God are used interchangablely throughout scripture.

Interchangeably? So we could just as accurately say that the Holy Ghost was baptized, God the Father was sitting on the bank of the river watching and the voice of Jesus Christ was heard from Heaven? What are you trying to say here, 'cause you really lost me!

 

[Katzpur]

We have all 3 in the beginning ,do many accept that ,"NO" but that is another thread

I think many do accept that, including non-trinitarian Christians such as myself.

 

[Cub Reporter]

I do not understand exactly how people can believe in the 'Trinity,' for it seems so clear to me in the Bible how God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit are seperate! The passage where Jesus is baptised is so clear to me of a testimony of this! I mean here you have Jesus being baptised, the Father's voice speaking and the Holy Spirit clearly manifest in the form of a dove. (Matthew 3:15-17, and of course there are the other testimonies of this in Mark, Luke and John.)
I often, probably quite rudely, "Can it get much clearer than this?" I think not, and honestly do not understand how someone can not see this. Yet I know that we are all entitled to believe how we see fit to believe and that is ok. (It is one of those things that makes this country so beautiful, huh?!)

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

I do not understand exactly how people can believe in the 'Trinity,' for it seems so clear to me in the Bible how God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit are seperate! The passage where Jesus is baptised is so clear to me of a testimony of this! I mean here you have Jesus being baptised, the Father's voice speaking and the Holy Spirit clearly manifest in the form of a dove. (Matthew 3:15-17, and of course there are the other testimonies of this in Mark, Luke and John.)
I often, probably quite rudely, "Can it get much clearer than this?" I think not, and honestly do not understand how someone can not see this. Yet I know that we are all entitled to believe how we see fit to believe and that is ok. (It is one of those things that makes this country so beautiful, huh?!)

when i learned how Jesus is our father i can see how easly God the Father and Jesus can get confused... we have a father that we are born to which is God the Father we are his spirit children, we are then adopted into Jesus family though baptisom and he becomes our father, friend and already our brother, it is this relationship that i belive got confused in the early history of the christians. the relationship between the members of the God and there role that they play can be confusing becouse if one speeks they all speek like husband and wife they are one...

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

In Genesis 1:26 we read "And God said let US make man in OUR own image and after OUR likeness". To us non-trinitarians this makes perfect sense since we believe that both God the Father and Jesus Christ were involved in the creation. I'm curious though, how do trinitarians interperet the references to "us" and "our" in this passage?

lol...this is funny, because usually this is a passage that Trinitarians use to show the Trinity in Scripture...
The different persons' of the Godhead communicated in creation...doesn't sound too convoluted to me, although when you believe there is only one person in the Godhead it makes it a little tougher, it seems to me.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

I do not understand exactly how people can believe in the 'Trinity,' for it seems so clear to me in the Bible how God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit are seperate!

Trinitarians believe they are separate...thus the frequent accusation by non-Trinitarians that we're polytheists.

 

[Polaris]

lol...this is funny, because usually this is a passage that Trinitarians use to show the Trinity in Scripture...
The different persons' of the Godhead communicated in creation...doesn't sound too convoluted to me, although when you believe there is only one person in the Godhead it makes it a little tougher, it seems to me.

Corrrect me if I am wrong, but don't you believe that they are of one substance? Does that not mean that they are essentially one being?

You say they are separate, in what way?

Were they separate before the incarnation of Jesus Christ?

Why are all other instances in scripture where God references himself done so with a singular pronoun ("I the Lord am God"), why in this particular case doesn't the verse say "And the Lord God said I will make man in my own image"? Where is the consistancy in your interpretation of scripture here?

Everywhere else He refers to himself with "I", this passage uses the pronoun "us", it seems natural to interpret the creation process as involving more than one being.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Because one of the hundreds of people over the centuries who've translated the Bible from whichever language into the next made a mistake?

Could you back that up with any proof in this instance?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I agree with the points Halcyon has made and I will go further, in saying... that when God says 'Let us make man in our image." he is taking into account all of the heavenly hosts. Angels, ArchAngels, and the original creator.

God is the DNA of everything. There is also mention that God created all things thru Jesus Christ. Ephesians 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ."

It doesn't say that God is the same person as all of his heavenly host or as Jesus. Jesus says that he is so like God that if you have seen him, you have seen the Father. Then again, John calls Jesus the only begotten. Could it be that Jesus was the only being that the original God created?

Thinking in this vein makes me think about the character of every living thing and wonder if the image of God isn't somehow represented in all of them?

These certainly are not Biblical positions.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Elohim is a plural noun used to describe a singular entity much like we would say a "Bunch" of grapes describing one bunch but with many grapes.

"Heaven," describing the abode of God, has the same intonation, as in "In my Father's house are many mansions."

 

[writer]

32 I do not understand exactly how people can believe in the 'Trinity,'
Cuz they can count?

for it seems so clear to me in the Bible how God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit are seperate!
Gen 1:26-27; Mt 28:19; Jn 14:10-11; etc r clear to me precisely the opposite.
"I'm in the Father and the Father's in Me. The Father abides in Me. Believe Me that I'm in the Father and the Father's in Me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves"

The passage where Jesus is baptised is so clear to me of a testimony of this!
Given that the Bible's not Mt 3:16-17 only; but that, just like the Father and Son (and Spirit), it coexists simultaneously in the same book as Jn 14:10-11 etc: Father, Son, Holy Spirit are not separate

I often, probably quite rudely, "Can it get much clearer than this?" I think not, and honestly do not understand how someone can not see this.
i think i understand how some can try to separate Father, Son, and Spirit.
They don't know Him

...It is one of those things that makes this country so beautiful, huh?!
yes

35 Trinitarians believe they are separate...thus the frequent accusation by non-Trinitarians that we're polytheists.
"Separate," strictly-speaking = either polytheism, or denial of God as He is

39 Elohim is a plural noun used to describe a singular entity much like we would say a "Bunch" of grapes describing one bunch but with many grapes.
amen

"Heaven," describing the abode of God, has the same intonation, as in "In my Father's house are many mansions."
Same chapter that the Son reveals the 3 in 1.
Except like grapes on vine (Jn 15),
the many abodes comprise the Son's Body (Jn 14:23, 2, 10).
Not heaven.
Thanks