Tradition! Tradition! Tradition!

[Polymath257]

Traditions are part of every society and are part of what makes for the grand diversity of the human species. From holidays, to rituals, to simple words said over meals, traditions are interwoven with all of our lives. On the other hand, there are undoubtedly very destructive traditions (say, female genital mutilation), ones that cause real physical and psychological harm.

So:

1. What is the value of tradition?

2. Does tradition have a value in and of itself?

3. What makes a tradition a *good* tradition?

4. What makes a tradition a *bad* tradition?

5. How should traditions be changed over time?

6. How are new traditions adopted?

Any thoughts?

 

[Polymath257]

I, myself, always find it a poor explanation of why we do something some way to simply say 'it is tradition'. I guess that ultimately means I don't find tradition to be of value simply by the fact of it being a tradition. I want there to be a deeper reason for the behavior that "we've always done it that way".

I am concerned that as society changes, the old traditions be come less and less appropriate and can become harmful by being ill-adapted to the new realities.

On the other hand, it is clear that people need some traditions to give meaning to their lives, to structure their years, and to bind themselves into a larger society. I'm just not sure when the old should be tossed and and replaced and when it should be kept and nurtured.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Now I want to watch Fiddler on the Roof.

 

[Nakosis]

Traditions are part of every society and are part of what makes for the grand diversity of the human species. From holidays, to rituals, to simple words said over meals, traditions are interwoven with all of our lives. On the other hand, there are undoubtedly very destructive traditions (say, female genital mutilation), ones that cause real physical and psychological harm.

So:

1. What is the value of tradition?

2. Does tradition have a value in and of itself?

3. What makes a tradition a *good* tradition?

4. What makes a tradition a *bad* tradition?

5. How should traditions be changed over time?

6. How are new traditions adopted?

Any thoughts?

Not a big fan of traditions myself. Maybe burial traditions to ease the loss of a loved one.

Most other traditions I see little value in. Others do so I go along for their benefit.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Now I want to watch Fiddler on the Roof.

that was my first thought as well...

 

[Unveiled Artist]

1. What is the value of tradition?

2. Does tradition have a value in and of itself?

It keeps our history in check. It gives our society values to hold on to and improve. In the U.S. it helps us ideally form an independent and safe nation by doing what our "ancestors" have done before. Family tradition in the states varies depending on environment as well as people. Further south of me out and the outskirts people seem more family-oriented (the extended family type) than in the city where family dynamics are different but no worse than the other. Tradition keeps us in a sense of our religions (and freedom thereof).

There are people who say we are falling from tradition where prayer is no longer being said in schools and swearing by oath on the bible just the same. Yet, you go to other countries who keep their traditions and culture despite people who was not born and/or raised there.

3. What makes a tradition a *good* tradition?

In my opinion, those that help others, accept people for their differences, and have a less hierarchical perspective (no one is worse at the expense of someone else). I wish our American values stood out a bit more but the innovation value may have gone overboard.

4. What makes a tradition a *bad* tradition?

People die, hurt, belittled, etc. Tradition that's not healthy for societal, communal, and personal growth.

5. How should traditions be changed over time?

We're so mixed in the States I wouldn't know where to start.

6. How are new traditions adopted?

Well, one of our State values is to improve and we're future oriented as a whole; so, I guess finding balance between the "new cure" and things like finding ways to help those who ask for help.

Any thoughts?

I feel the word tradition has been bastardized by "spiritual and not religious" folks and put down by ex-indoctrinates give or take on this side as well. Maybe take a bit from Bahai a bit and work as a unit despite our differences and contradictions.

Who knows?

 

[SigurdReginson]

1: Tradition can allow certain ideas to flourish, but it can also hinder other ideas. It can give a structure to artistic expression, but it can also hinder artistic experimentation. Tradition can also bring people together under one banner, but it also single out those who march to the beat of a different drum. It's a double edged blade.

2: I think it does. Good or bad, it shines a light on the human psyche. Being confronted with foreign traditions also helps to expand people's minds and to get a better understanding of themselves and their place in the world.

3: One that positively influences personal and general wellbeing.

4: One that negatively influences personal and general wellbeing.

5: With more accurate information and thoughtful decision making, I'd hope.

6: New ideas and concepts, good or bad. Most of the time these changes come from being in contact with foreign peoples, but change does come from within as well.

I'd like to add that there are plenty of traditions that are neither good, nor bad, but still have loads of value. Language, mythology, art, history, etc etc. These things are all worth preserving in one form or another. Santa Claus is a far cry from the Yolfathr of ancient nordic times, but I still like that it's a part of our culture.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Now I want to watch Fiddler on the Roof.

That's what I was going to say!!!!

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Traditions are part of the "oil" that makes everything move more easily, without squeaking. But of course they'll change. They just change more slowly than a lot of other things -- they're much more generational than, say, technological changes, which even us senior citizens can begrudgingly cope with.

 

[Twilight Hue]

That's what I was going to say!!!!

I also want to be a rich man.

 

[Stevicus]

that was my first thought as well...

Mine too.

Miracle of miracles.

 

[Stevicus]

 

[Vouthon]

This is a fantastic topic @Polymath257, and actually a really important one as well.

Have you read Gormenghast (1950) by Mervyn Peake?

It is basically a literary exploration of the perils of living in a society hidebound by esoteric traditions / rigid customs / arcane rituals no one understands the meaning of anymore, but which everyone is terrified to risk breaking because of strong cultural conditioning, taboos and a range of superstitious sanctions:

The left hand pages were headed with the date and in the first of the three books this was followed by a list of the activities to be performed hour by hour during the day by his lordship. The exact times; the garments to be worn for each occasion and the symbolic gestures to be used. Diagrams facing the left hand page gave particulars of the routes by which his lordship should approach the various scenes of operation. The diagrams were hand tinted.

The second tome was full of blank pages and was entirely symbolic, while the third was a mass of cross references. . . This complex system was understood in its entirety only by Sourdust – the technicalities demanding the devotion of a lifetime, though the sacred spirit of tradition implied by the daily manifestations was understood by all.

(Titus Groan)

​

Gormenghast (abridged)

Titus, Earl of Groan, is becoming aware of a world beyond the suffocating confines of Gormenghast, bound by centuries of tradition into a pattern of decaying rituals. He yearns for freedom. Meanwhile the amoral Steerpike continues to forge his way into a position of power, leaving death in his wake and nearly dying in the process. But his rise places him at odds with Titus himself; and only one will survive

Titus grow from a young boy into a young man, and he loses none of his defiant spirit, but instead adds to it a fully-formed desire to be free of the mantle of Gormenghast and its endless rituals, and to become his own man, and not a symbol - not an Earl. He is therefore both the symbol of Gormenghast, and the enemy of all that it is.
​

1. What is the value of tradition?

I guess it provides people with a sense of rootedness in and a bond with their heritage - whether personal, familial, ethnic, national or religious - along with those who came before them. Let's call it....a sense of perspective. It ties a person to their place of origin, upbringing or inherited culture / faith / source of their values.

Human beings, at least the majority of us, are sentimental. We develop emotional attachments to things that are familiar to us, or which we associate with fond memories of a loved one or a happy childhood experience.

It can be quite a humbling experience to realise that you are the heir and keeper of something immemorial (or with an air of being 'time immemorial'): a custom that has a deep history of moral meaning, passed down from one generation to the next. There's a real beauty to that and in being able to introduce the next generation to the same traditions that shaped oneself growing up.

In the absence of tradition, I think many people find it difficult to anchor and make sense of their place in the world, or indeed as you say to structure their lives. Traditions promote 'pro-social' behaviour and set aside time for merriment, festivities, a way of marking important milestones in life etc. It can also help people to come to terms with grief, as for instance through the funeral commemoration of a departed relative and to celebrate the memory of that person in a family gathering.

At a time when globalisation has upended traditional communities, shared forms of social life and atomised many people, there is arguably a place for traditions that bring people together around a shared moral purpose / structured meaning.

2. Does tradition have a value in and of itself?

Not in the sense of absolute value. Each tradition needs to be evaluated on its own merits and judged by its consequences. Some traditions are demonstrably harmful, whereas others are demonstrably harmless.

On the one hand.....

I certainly think human dignity demands respect for a person's right to their cultural traditions in the abstract, inasmuch as we have a duty to enable everyone to freely practice traditions (i.e. language, stories, rituals, regular meetings and celebration of rites of passage) they deem to be somehow intrinsic to their identity, so long as they don't violate other fundamental rights in practice.

In China, as we speak, the PRC government is systematically repressing Uighur cultural heritage, in an attempt to foist a single national consciousness upon this minority community. Uighurs are being denied the right to education in their own language and history. Adherence to cultural traditions, as in the case of the Uighur Muslims, can sometimes be a means of resistance to those who would prefer that everybody think like alike and live uniformly. The words beneath my profile are: In varietate concordia (United in diversity).

A country that has only one language and only one tradition is weak and failing. I therefore urge you to welcome foreigners kindly and to hold them in honour, so that they prefer to stay with you rather than elsewhere

- King Saint Stephen, 1031, (Admonitions, VI)​

On the other hand....

Tradition (especially when enforced unwillingly on people as part of a very traditional (pun!), enclosed, hierarchical and conformist society), can be extremely oppressive, detrimental to human dignity, strip people of their agency as individuals and if deeply ingrained, traditionalism can also inhibit social progress / advancement.

Will give more thoughts on this (and other questions) at a later point.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

1. What is the value of tradition?

I have wondered this since I was younger, and I have never understood the point of doing something just because it's what people do.

2. Does tradition have a value in and of itself?

No. Its really nothing more that a higher importance sort of ritualistic behavior.

5. How should traditions be changed over time?

If they change, it isn't tradition.

6. How are new traditions adopted?

There is actually a researched/scientific answer to this. It has to have this and that and that other thingies I don't remember and can't recall.

 

[Augustus]

2. Does tradition have a value in and of itself?

Yes.

Anything that costs humans time/effort/money/etc and has survived a long time is almost certain to provide some form of benefit.

I'm a believer in the heuristic of Chesterton's Fence:

"In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, "I don't see the use of this; let us clear it away." To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: "If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it."

Humans are far less smart than they think they are, and are terrible at predicting the consequences of our actions.

'Rationalism' necessarily leads to faddishness. What is rational today, often seems ludicrous with hindsight. Human history is full of 'well it seemed a good idea at the time' disasters resulting from short-lived intellectual fads.

That something has stood the test of time will usually be a better predictor of value than any given person's evaluation of a contemporary fashion.

This certainly doesn't mean that all traditions must be good, or that change is per se bad. It just incorporates a bias towards tradition as we may not understand the benefits it provides, and don't necessarily understand the downside of its replacement. An inbuilt resistance to intellectual faddishness is also a good thing.

An example: most religions have some form of gathering/congregation. I have no doubt that society would be, on average, better off if people gathered with their local community once a week or more (or at least a community). Human contact, reduced isolation, community spirit, support networks, community services, cheap non-commercial facilities that can be used for community provision, etc. are things many people would benefit from, the religion itself is largely irrelevant.

That, in theory, we could do this without the tradition, doesn't mean that is what happens in reality.

I want there to be a deeper reason for the behavior that "we've always done it that way".

There usually is. We just might not know what it is.

 

[Augustus]

Have you read Gormenghast (1950) by Mervyn Peake?

An interesting article:

A Point Of View: Leaving Gormenghast

We like to imagine that the coming of modern times marks a fundamental alteration in human experience. Whenever it began - some say with the decline of medievalism, others with the rise of modern science - our world is shaped by the belief that it's different from anything that existed before.

In some ways this is obviously right - we know more than we have ever done, we have more powerful technologies, we're richer and live longer than the majority of human beings have ever done. We're different in another way: we expect much more of the future than anyone did in the past.

Until a few hundred years ago, most people believed human history was cyclical - a series of rising and falling civilizations in which what some generations gained, others lost. Today, nearly everyone thinks otherwise. The modern world is founded on the belief that it's possible for human beings to shape a future that's better than anything in the past. If the Gormenghast novels have any continuing theme, it's that this modern belief is an illusion.

Leaving Gormenghast

Also available as a short podcast:

The Myth of Modernity
John Gray draws on the novels of Mervyn Peake to argue it's a mistake to imagine that modernity marks a fundamental change in human experience.
BBC Radio 4 - A Point of View, The Myth of Modernity

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The Myth of Modernity
John Gray draws on the novels of Mervyn Peake to argue it's a mistake to imagine that modernity marks a fundamental change in human experience.

It actually has been with the level of connectedness, which has connected us to the globe but ironically left us more disconnected from each other. But, yeah, instant communication and information has changed so much of our lives.

 

[Augustus]

It actually has been with the level of connectedness, which has connected us to the globe but ironically left us more disconnected from each other. But, yeah, instant communication and information has changed so much of our lives.

He's really saying that the myth or modernity is that we're more in control of our destiny than we were in the past, not that society/technology hasn't changed aspects of our lives.

So we can no more deny change and live entirely in the past than we can control change and shape the future to our will.

But, yes, hyperconnectedness certainly hasn't been the panacea techno-optimists were predicting.

Marshall McLuhan talked about the technological extension of consciousness: the caveman only knew his own environment and that which directly impacted him, now most of what we are conscious of has little direct impact on our lives and is purely trivia.

I feel that localism and some degree of tradition would be a good counterbalance to globalism and an increasing degree of abstraction.

 

[Vouthon]

An interesting article:

A Point Of View: Leaving Gormenghast

We like to imagine that the coming of modern times marks a fundamental alteration in human experience. Whenever it began - some say with the decline of medievalism, others with the rise of modern science - our world is shaped by the belief that it's different from anything that existed before.

In some ways this is obviously right - we know more than we have ever done, we have more powerful technologies, we're richer and live longer than the majority of human beings have ever done. We're different in another way: we expect much more of the future than anyone did in the past.

Until a few hundred years ago, most people believed human history was cyclical - a series of rising and falling civilizations in which what some generations gained, others lost. Today, nearly everyone thinks otherwise. The modern world is founded on the belief that it's possible for human beings to shape a future that's better than anything in the past. If the Gormenghast novels have any continuing theme, it's that this modern belief is an illusion.

Leaving Gormenghast

Also available as a short podcast:

The Myth of Modernity
John Gray draws on the novels of Mervyn Peake to argue it's a mistake to imagine that modernity marks a fundamental change in human experience.
BBC Radio 4 - A Point of View, The Myth of Modernity

John Gray never ceases to surprise.

I had not been aware that he'd been influenced by Mervyn Peake's gothic fantasy trilogy.

Will read and listen to your links with great interest, thanks.

 

[Polymath257]

"In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, "I don't see the use of this; let us clear it away." To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: "If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it."

And what about those fences that originally had a purpose, now long gone and forgotten, but now only serve to impede necessary movement?

Again, I don't see 'tradition' as being a good reason for keeping up the fence. People, as well as tearing down things that might be useful, also keep things that have lasted past their utility.