Torah Preservation

[Jayhawker Soule]

You forget, I was never a young rabbi. I did not enter the rabbinate until I was at an age when many rabbis are considering retirement, if they have not already retired.

I never knew this. It sounds like a facet of an inspiring memoir.

 

[Jake1001]

If you want to hang your hat on the scientific explanation, then feel free. The Torah, its authority and its authorship are functions of faith. Not everyone subscribes to your point of view. Did you read the Rambam's 13 Ikkarim?

How can Torah, authority and authorship be functions of faith ? Does that mean when Newton sat under the apple tree when the apple fell, if he did not believe in gravity, it would have fallen upward ? R. Rosen, are you living in a computer simulation?

 

[Jake1001]

If you want to hang your hat on the scientific explanation, then feel free. The Torah, its authority and its authorship are functions of faith. Not everyone subscribes to your point of view. Did you read the Rambam's 13 Ikkarim?

Lets try :

The Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith

First note, Rambam uses a dash !

Second, nowhere does he say, “lets make it up
as we go along”.

Rambam was a hardcore rationalist. Not a word of superstition!! He was good people!!

 

[Jake1001]

You forget, I was never a young rabbi. I did not enter the rabbinate until I was at an age when many rabbis are considering retirement, if they have not already retired.

Yes, thanks for reminding us, It’s why your such a zeisen Rabbi !!

 

[Jake1001]

I never knew this. It sounds like a facet of an inspiring memoir.

We all knew this @ Jaybo! Have you left your keys in the refrigerator lately ?

 

[Jake1001]

And then there's ...

“You must accept the truth from whatever source it comes.”
― Moses Ben Maimon​

It all comes down to acceptance criteria.

Cute one, @ Jaybo, can you explain its corollary ?

 

[rosends]

Lets try :

The Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith

First note, Rambam uses a dash !

Second, nowhere does he say, “lets make it up
as we go along”.

Rambam was a hardcore rationalist. Not a word of superstition!! He was good people!!

No, the Rambam gives torah sources for each of the principles of faith
הקדמת הרמב"ם לפרק חלק (שלמה בן יוסף) – ויקיטקסט

read down to #8.

 

[rosends]

How can Torah, authority and authorship be functions of faith ? Does that mean when Newton sat under the apple tree when the apple fell, if he did not believe in gravity, it would have fallen upward ? R. Rosen, are you living in a computer simulation?

They are functions of our belief not in that that makes it so, but in that they are theological positions that we subscribe to and others don't. Your not believing in the divine authorship of the text doesn't make it not divine. Your position is a function of your belief.

 

[Jake1001]

No, the Rambam gives torah sources for each of the principles of faith
הקדמת הרמב"ם לפרק חלק (שלמה בן יוסף) – ויקיטקסט

read down to #8.

We might even agree on this. To me divine is non-anthropomorphic.

 

[Jake1001]

They are functions of our belief not in that that makes it so, but in that they are theological positions that we subscribe to and others don't. Your not believing in the divine authorship of the text doesn't make it not divine. Your position is a function of your belief.

But what if your belief system is illogical? Shouldn’t @ Big R correct your thinking ?

 

[rosends]

But what if your belief system is illogical? Shouldn’t @ Big R correct your thinking ?

faith is often irrational. The Rambam's source for the Torah's being divine is the Torah. Or are you going to tell me that the Rambam is such a rationalist that he doesn't believe in belief? Or maybe, since the Rambam advocates for a divine-authorship position and he is a rationalist, to believe otherwise is irrational?

 

[Jake1001]

faith is often irrational. The Rambam's source for the Torah's being divine is the Torah. Or are you going to tell me that the Rambam is such a rationalist that he doesn't believe in belief? Or maybe, since the Rambam advocates for a divine-authorship position and he is a rationalist, to believe otherwise is irrational?

If faith is irrational it is likely that what you have faith in is not correct. You may want to examine the validity of your faith.

 

[rosends]

If faith is irrational it is likely that what you have faith in is not correct. You may want to examine the validity of your faith.

You should tell that to the Rambam who has articles of faith that one is required to adopt without having to be proven. Or maybe to every other observant Jew who has (for example) eaten only kosher food for the last few thousand years.

Maybe you would prefer the term "a-rational" (as defined here):
"I use ‘a-rational’ rather than ‘irrational’ in order to indicate that for this approach, the transcendence of rationality required for faith is not something negative, but rather sublime and heroic."

You may want to examine your flippant dismissal of a divine authorship. The, um "Big R" would not be happy with you.

 

[Jake1001]

You should tell that to the Rambam who has articles of faith that one is required to adopt without having to be proven. Or maybe to every other observant Jew who has (for example) eaten only kosher food for the last few thousand years.

Maybe you would prefer the term "a-rational" (as defined here):
"I use ‘a-rational’ rather than ‘irrational’ in order to indicate that for this approach, the transcendence of rationality required for faith is not something negative, but rather sublime and heroic."

You may want to examine your flippant dismissal of a divine authorship. The, um "Big R" would not be happy with you.

I believe in divine creation. However, non-anthropomorphic G-ds don’t write books !

Furthermore, big R agrees with Reform views eventhough he is Conservadox.

 

[rosends]

I believe in divine creation. However, non-anthropomorphic G-ds don’t write books !

No, they dictate them.

Furthermore, big R agrees with Reform views eventhough he is Conservadox.

then you and I are talking about different Big R's.

 

[RabbiO]

I believe in divine creation. However, non-anthropomorphic G-ds don’t write books !

Furthermore, big R agrees with Reform views eventhough he is Conservadox.

Here’s the thing. You need to learn when to take off the clown suit.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Maybe you would prefer the term "a-rational" (as defined here):
"I use ‘a-rational’ rather than ‘irrational’ in order to indicate that for this approach, the transcendence of rationality required for faith is not something negative, but rather sublime and heroic."

That's an interesting and, I think, valuable perspective. Thanks.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Judaism DIR.

How do we know the Torah we have is the Torah as it has always been?
Thanks.

I did a paper on this topic. See attached.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

If you want to hang your hat on the scientific explanation, then feel free. The Torah, its authority and its authorship are functions of faith. Not everyone subscribes to your point of view. Did you read the Rambam's 13 Ikkarim?

If I can add a note here. The Rambam didn't call them principles of "Faith." Translated in Hebrew, what he wrote was:

וממה שראוי שאזכיר כאן וזהו המקום היותר ראוי להזכירם בו, שעיקרי תורתינו הטהורה ויסודותיה שלש עשרה יסודות​

In fact, in other places where modern translations of the Rambam - he actually used the Arabic word which means "to know" not "to beleive."

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Lets try :

The Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith

First note, Rambam uses a dash !

Second, nowhere does he say, “lets make it up
as we go along”.

Rambam was a hardcore rationalist. Not a word of superstition!! He was good people!!

Just to note. There are a number of writings that the Rambam wrote in Judeo-Arabic. Rabbi Yoseph Qafahh in his editions of the Rambam's works make it clear that there are a translations into Hebrew that were made in the past by people who were not as fluent in the Arabic of the Rambam's time. Thus, there are some who tried to translate word for word without translating the concept correctly.

One of those areas that he notes is with the Arabic (אעתקאד) which many prior translations translate as (אמונה) "faith" or "trust in something that has been established" actually should really be translated as (ידיעה) "knowledge" or "awareness", Also, the original wording that the Rambam used was a lot longer than what most quote as "13 principles of faith." So, essentially the Rambam was writing about principels of the foundation of the Torah and not principles of faith.