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Torah Preservation

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Judaism DIR.

How do we know the Torah we have is the Torah as it has always been?

Also, when/why was it decided that such books as Esther, Shir HaShirim and so forth should be included in the Tanakh as a whole?

I'm not looking for arguments against Torah preservation; I've seen those. I'm looking for positive arguments.

Thanks.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Contemporary Jewish Issues | Rabbi Anthony Manning

Rabbi Anthony Manning has at least a few classes on the topic, for example: Archeology part 1 and part 2. I'm in the middle of pt. 1 but he said that at some point he'll talk about what are the halachic implications of finding an ancient Torah scroll and it turns out it's different from the ones we have.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Judaism DIR.

How do we know the Torah we have is the Torah as it has always been?
We don't. What we do know is that there was what Emanuel Tov* referred to as a pluriformaty of Torah text at the time of Qumran, that the difference were for the most part very minor, and that very early on a proto-Masoretic text evolved to become the standard within Judaism.

* see Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible
 
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Jake1001

Computer Simulator
Judaism DIR.

How do we know the Torah we have is the Torah as it has always been?

Also, when/why was it decided that such books as Esther, Shir HaShirim and so forth should be included in the Tanakh as a whole?

I'm not looking for arguments against Torah preservation; I've seen those. I'm looking for positive arguments.

Thanks.

Hi Rival, the Torah was written by men for men. The editor decided how to compile the Torah. The torah offers great lesson of man dealing with man. It is a great ethics primer. Agreed @ Jay ?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Hi Rival, the Torah was written by men for men. The editor decided how to compile the Torah. The torah offers great lesson of man dealing with man. It is a great ethics primer. Agreed @ Jay ?
I generally agree except, rather than talking about an editor, I think in terms of a redaction process.

By the, to signal a member there can be no space between the @ symbol and the (full) username. "@ Jay" accomplishes nothing.
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Contemporary Jewish Issues | Rabbi Anthony Manning

Rabbi Anthony Manning has at least a few classes on the topic, for example: Archeology part 1 and part 2. I'm in the middle of pt. 1 but he said that at some point he'll talk about what are the halachic implications of finding an ancient Torah scroll and it turns out it's different from the ones we have.
Really cool.... Harel. This is going on the top of my to-be-read pile.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member

There is a 1991 article by David Aune in the Journal of Biblical Literature titled

On the Origins of the "Council of Javne" Myth

where the author begins by claiming:

There is now widespread agreement that the notion of a "Council of Javneh" at which the third division of the Hebrew canon of scriptures was closed is a distortion of the evidence found in rabbinic sources.​

and then traces the "myth" to Spinoza.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Judaism DIR.

How do we know the Torah we have is the Torah as it has always been?

Also, when/why was it decided that such books as Esther, Shir HaShirim and so forth should be included in the Tanakh as a whole?

I'm not looking for arguments against Torah preservation; I've seen those. I'm looking for positive arguments.

Thanks.
You are going to get very different answers from different Jews, as I'm sure you are prepared for. :)

First, I'm sure you are already aware that, for example, Genesis is a cut and paste job of different sources. It was not written by one person (although there may be traditionalists here who disagree with that). Indeed the Torah as we know it was compiled in Babylon.

So why would I accept the Torah as my sacred text? I accept it because it is the sacred text of my people. We, as a people, have adopted it in the form it is now in. It doesn't really matter if there were older versions or alternative versions. This is the version that has come down to us. We have chosen it. And IMHO I think God had some hand in moving our hearts in this matter.

So, maybe King David didn't have the Tanakh that I have today. Maybe he didn't even have the Torah that I have today. It doesn't matter to me. Not one iota.
 

Jake1001

Computer Simulator
You are going to get very different answers from different Jews, as I'm sure you are prepared for. :)

First, I'm sure you are already aware that, for example, Genesis is a cut and paste job of different sources. It was not written by one person (although there may be traditionalists here who disagree with that). Indeed the Torah as we know it was compiled in Babylon.

So why would I accept the Torah as my sacred text? I accept it because it is the sacred text of my people. We, as a people, have adopted it in the form it is now in. It doesn't really matter if there were older versions or alternative versions. This is the version that has come down to us. We have chosen it. And IMHO I think God had some hand in moving our hearts in this matter.

So, maybe King David didn't have the Tanakh that I have today. Maybe he didn't even have the Torah that I have today. It doesn't matter to me. Not one iota.
Not sure how to deal with this post. First, its a bit wordy. Also, we all know that Torah was written by many different authors. Btw, when you write G-d, please put a hyphen between the G and the d. @RabbiO can explain why.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Not sure how to deal with this post. First, its a bit wordy. Also, we all know that Torah was written by many different authors. Btw, when you write G-d, please put a hyphen between the G and the d. @RabbiO can explain why.
I'm aware of the Jewish tradition. I used to do that myself. However, I got tired of explaining it to non-Jews.
 

Jake1001

Computer Simulator
I would think that @Jake1001 would remember that I write “G-d” simply because it has become a wide spread convention, not because it is necessary.
Thank you, big R, but you haven’t explained why it has become a convention. So you are ok if I write out all 3 letters ? When you were a young Rabbi, around 2,000 years ago, we started using the dash.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Hold the phone, here, R. Rosen, you know the archeology and anthropology all indicates multiple authors, right? Did you read the book “Who Wrote the Bible”?
If you want to hang your hat on the scientific explanation, then feel free. The Torah, its authority and its authorship are functions of faith. Not everyone subscribes to your point of view. Did you read the Rambam's 13 Ikkarim?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
If you want to hang your hat on the scientific explanation, then feel free. The Torah, its authority and its authorship are functions of faith. Not everyone subscribes to your point of view. Did you read the Rambam's 13 Ikkarim?
And then there's ...

“You must accept the truth from whatever source it comes.”
― Moses Ben Maimon​

It all comes down to acceptance criteria. :)
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Thank you, big R, but you haven’t explained why it has become a convention. So you are ok if I write out all 3 letters ? When you were a young Rabbi, around 2,000 years ago, we started using the dash.
You forget, I was never a young rabbi. I did not enter the rabbinate until I was at an age when many rabbis are considering retirement, if they have not already retired.
 
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