• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Topic: Loving Jesus or Muhammad: Can I Have Both?

Woodrow LI

IB Ambassador
Yes we are well aware of that account about the adulteress being a forgery....thats why we didnt include it in our New World Translation bible.

But with regard to polygamy, how can a person with multiple wives not be an adulterer? Jesus said plainly that Gods standard for marriage is seen in Adam and Eve when God put them together in marriage. He said "a man will leave his mother and father and he must stick to his wife and the two will become 'ONE' flesh, Therefore, what God has yolked together LET NO MAN PUT APART'

AS soon as you add 2 or 3 or 4 , you can no longer be called 'one flesh' therefore you are not practicing marriage in the way that God intended.

And this is why the Christian writings are clear that a man is to have only one wife. To honor God, we must honor his will and it is his will that marriage be binding between one man and one woman. If we claim to honor and respect God, we will show that in how we live our life and how we apply his Will in our life. If God wants marriage to be between one man and one woman, who are we to change it? Why must our will override Gods? That is not respecting or submitting to God at all.

If jesus and done away with polygamy there would be no reason to Timothy 3:12 to say:
New International Version
A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well.

New Living Translation
A deacon must be faithful to his wife, and he must manage his children and household well.

English Standard Version
Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.

New American Standard Bible
Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.

King James Bible
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Deacons must be husbands of one wife, managing their children and their own households competently.

International Standard Version
Ministers must be husbands of one wife and must manage their children and their families well.

NET Bible
Deacons must be husbands of one wife and good managers of their children and their own households.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
A Minister should be one who has one wife and leads his children and his household well.

There would have been no reason to emphasis ONE wife, unless polygamy was the norm.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Don't be silly .. marriage is about 1 man marrying 1 woman .. a man who has more than one wife does not (or should not!) sleep with them simultaneously :D

What makes you think that becoming 'one flesh' has anything to do with sex?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
If jesus and done away with polygamy there would be no reason to Timothy 3:12 to say:
New International Version
A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well.

New Living Translation
A deacon must be faithful to his wife, and he must manage his children and household well.

English Standard Version
Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.

New American Standard Bible
Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.

King James Bible
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Deacons must be husbands of one wife, managing their children and their own households competently.

International Standard Version
Ministers must be husbands of one wife and must manage their children and their families well.

NET Bible
Deacons must be husbands of one wife and good managers of their children and their own households.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
A Minister should be one who has one wife and leads his children and his household well.

There would have been no reason to emphasis ONE wife, unless polygamy was the norm.

nor would there have been the need to emphasis the 'one wife' rule if Christ had not put an end to polygamy.
 

Woodrow LI

IB Ambassador
you can follow it if you like.

But if it is Gods final revelation, why would God need Jesus at all? Why not install mohammad as the one to lead mankind back to God?

Not very logical.

Why were any Prophets needed?

Besides Jesus is still alive and will return to complete his work.
There would have been no need for the Qur'an if people had followed the teachings of Jesus(as).
Muhammad(saaws) was given the Qur'an as mankind's last chance to get it right and not mess it up again

Jesus(as) did teach the truth But many ignored the message and began worshiping the messenger.
Others have either come upon very strange interpretations of what Jesus(as) taught or ignore him completely.
 
Last edited:

Woodrow LI

IB Ambassador
nor would there have been the need to emphasis the 'one wife' rule if Christ had not put an end to polygamy.

As polygamy was the norm and Timothy wanted the clergy to have just one wife. It had to be stated.

If polygamy had been outlawed Timothy would have simply stated they must be married.

But that is not what Timothy is saying he is saying if the clergy are married, they are to have just one wife.
Timothy is making it very clear early Christians did practice polygamy. Because he is adamant the clergy could not have more than one wife.

Polygamy was legal in Christianity until the Church held a synod in Hertford, England, in 673. and made it illegal

If Jesus(as) had forbidden polygamy there would have been no need for the Church to outlaw it nearly 700 years after Jesus(as).
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
I think Rachel or Samuel's mother Hannah might have a few words to say about sharing a husband when we see them in the resurrection - if asked. The Law regulated it, but Jesus made it clear that what was permitted would no longer be so at Mt 19:9.

"I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery." - Mt 19:9

Is this supposed to mean that as long as you do not divorce your innocent first wife you can marry another?
 
Last edited:

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
As polygamy was the norm and Timothy wanted the clergy to have just one wife. It had to be stated.

If polygamy had been outlawed Timothy would have simply stated they must be married.

But that is not what Timothy is saying he is saying if the clergy are married, they are to have just one wife.
Timothy is making it very clear early Christians did practice polygamy. Because he is adamant the clergy could not have more than one wife.

Polygamy was legal in Christianity until the Church held a synod in Hertford, England, in 673. and made it illegal

If Jesus(as) had forbidden polygamy there would have been no need for the Church to outlaw it nearly 700 years after Jesus(as).

The book of Timothy is a letter by the Apostle Paul to the disciple Timothy. Its very easy to misunderstand these writings as you've demonstrated here.

Jesus teachings are clearly outlined in the gospels, and the letters written mostly by Paul testify to those teachings. Having one wife was a law right from Christianities founding. If people were practicing polygamy after the fact, it just shows their reluctance to apply Christs council and take it to heart thereby proving themselves to be false followers.... but their actions have no bearing on the subject because we know exactly what Christ thought of the practice of being married to more then one woman....it was adultery.
 

Woodrow LI

IB Ambassador
I think Rachel or Samuel's mother Hannah might have a few words to say about sharing a husband when we see them in the resurrection - if asked. The Law regulated it, but Jesus made it clear that was permitted would no longer be so at Mt 19:9.

"I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery." Mt 19:9

Is this supposed to mean that as long as you do not divorce your innocent first wife you can marry another?

Well it does not indicate you commit adultry if you do not divorce the first wife. The verse is a prohibition of divorce, not of polygamy

Looking further we find
Christ fulfils the law of Polygamy

This subject of polygamy applies to Christ and the gospel, in that Christ came to fulfill the law and the prophets (Mat.5:17). Christ is a polygamist in the sense that the church is likened to five wise betrothed virgins (Matt. 25:1-13, Matt. 24:34). Christ is one with the "members" (plural) of His body, the church, and one Spirit with them all (1 Corinthians 6:15-17).

Christ, in fulfilling the law, is the perfect husband to each individual member providing them with "clothing" such as His robes of righteousness (Matt. 22:11-14, Rev. 7:9,13-14, Rev. 22:14), "food" as He is the "bread of life" (Jn. 6:32-35), and "hidden manna" (Rev. 2:17) which God's people are presently feasting on at the wedding supper of the lamb (Rev. 19:9). Could any Christian doubt the loveliness of Christ as his lover? Christ has taken His people to His banqueting house, and His banner over us is love (So. 2:4). He has provided a place or a dwelling for us (Jn. 14:2). There's no question that God's people are well taken care of.
SOURCE

A common argument is that this clearly prohibits polygamy as the man would not be divorced if the divorce is invalid and that is why he is guilty of adultery. but it is not that simple or clear

Now, some make the following argument (Glenn Miller, Polygamy in the NT period):

The key thing to note here is that this argument fails if polygamy is acceptable! Jesus' point is that improper divorce does not nullify a marriage, and if the first marriage still stands, then a "second" marriage is adultery--and NOT simply 'polygamy'! This is very clear.

So the argument is basically this:

Jesus says, the man who invalidly divorces his wife, then marries another, commits adultery
Because the divorce is invalid, the man is still married to his first wife when he marries the second
For the second marriage to be an act of adultery, it must be invalid
If polygamy is prohibited, then the second marriage is invalid, since the man already has a valid existing one
If polygamy is permitted, then the second marriage is valid; the man's existing marriage is irrelevant
Hence, Jesus' words can only be true if polygamy is prohibited
Thus, Jesus implicitly teaches that polygamy is prohibited

Is that logic sound? If not, where is the weakness?

May I suggest the invalidity may be in premise (5): If polygamy is permitted, then the second marriage is valid; the man's existing marriage is irrelevant. This assumes too much. How? Well, if polygamy is allowed, then the mere fact that a man already has a wife is not in itself reason he cannot marry another at the same time. However, that does not mean that he has an unfettered right to marry another; polygamy could well be permissible in some circumstances and not others.

A proposed principle: A man is only permitted to take another wife if he cares for his existing wife/wives, and will treat the new wife and the existing wife/wives equally with one another/each other (the Islamic teaching on polygamy involves a similar principle)

Now, following on from this principle. The man has invalidly divorced his first wife. He has putatively divorced her, put on a show, an act, an appearance, an attempt, of divorcing her, even though the divorce is a legal and moral nullity. In such circumstances, if he marries another woman, is he caring for all his wives equally? By invalidly, illegally and immorally divorcing her, he has not cared for his first wife properly, so he is not permitted to take another; thus any subsequent marriages of his are not valid marriages, and his consumation of them is adulterous. Having illegally divorced his first wife, he cannot marry any further wives, until he sets things right with his first wife (e.g. rescinds the illegal divorce). So, under this proposal, Jesus' words are compatible with polygamy after all.
SOURCE

Was Polygamy A Sin In The New Testament?
Now let's consider the main objections against polygamy taken from the New Testament.

Objection #1:
Jesus himself said that polygamy is a sin.

Rebuttal:
Actually, Jesus never specifically said that polygamy per se is a sin, though many claim he did. Certainly if Jesus had said such a thing unambiguously, Christian giants like Augustine, Aquinas, and Luther would have noticed it. Those claiming Jesus denounced polygamy rely on either Matthew 19:9 or the parallel passages of Mark 10:11 or Luke 16:18 as support:
for the rest see HERE
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Why were any Prophets needed?

Besides Jesus is still alive and will return to complete his work.
There would have been no need for the Qur'an if people had followed the teachings of Jesus(as).

Jesus has already returned and his teachings have been taught for the past 2,000 years.

Jesus teachings have not changed in all that time. Mohammad was not a Christian, he knew little Christs teachings and understood little about how they apply in everyday life.

But when he is resurrected he will be taught more accurately and he will have the opportunity to bring himself into submission to Christ just as all others who are brought back during the judgement day and i can assure you that he will not be taking 9 wives as he did while he was alive.
 

Woodrow LI

IB Ambassador
Jesus has already returned and his teachings have been taught for the past 2,000 years.
He is still waiting in heaven, He will come during the last days and will destroy the anti-Christ (Dajall) Lead the final battle against all who did not follow his true teaching (The non-Believers) establish the final Caliphate and help unite all people as Muslims and an era of Peace will come to be. After which will be the final Judgement and he will testify against those who worshiped him as a god.

Jesus teachings have not changed in all that time. Mohammad was not a Christian, he knew little Christs teachings and understood little about how they apply in everyday life.
The people stopped following the teachings of Jesus(as) not long after he was taken up to heaven and false doctrine began to be followed when the people began to worship him. The Qur'an restored the true teachings of Jesus(as) through Muhammad(saaws)

But when he is resurrected he will be taught more accurately and he will have the opportunity to bring himself into submission to Christ just as all others who are brought back during the judgement day and i can assure you that he will not be taking 9 wives as he did while he was alive.
Muhammad(saaws) and all the Prophets(PBUT) will not be resurrected as they are already in Heaven. Jesus(as) will return to earth because he never died and must complete his life. After he dies an earthly death he will return to heaven.


All of this is revealed in the Qur'an and the Ahadith
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
No, the ethics are very very very very very very different. Even the 10 Commandments tell us we must not murder...yet the Quran allows stoning?

Where in the Qur'an do you find stoning?

One question, according to Christianity, when Jesus returns will he fight against the Anti-Christ?
 

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
Loving Jesus(peace be upon him) with a love based on truth is faith, hating him is disbelief.
Definetely i love him. But let say the christian version of Jesus peace be upon him came to me and asked me to worship him, i would reject that. I worship only Allah, beside whom there is no God.
 

ImaTroll

Member
So, I continued loving my beloved Jesus while I was getting to know Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon them both)...
if Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad ever met each other, then they would most likely have a personality conflict with each other.
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
if Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad ever met each other, then they would most likely have a personality conflict with each other.

Not at all

They would get on perfectly

Prophet Muhammad said:

“I am the closest of the people to the son of Mary.

The prophets are brothers from different mothers and there is no prophet between him and myself
.”

(Hadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari & Sahih Muslim)
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Where in the Qur'an do you find stoning?

i dont know, but in looking around it 'apparently' does not prescribe it even though sharia law (law based on the quran) imposes it quite frequently. Either the Quran says it, or no one wants to admit the quran says it. But if the quran does not say it, then why do they impose it? Is Islam doing something it should not?

Funny thing is i found some information saying the verses from the quran which did prescribe it was eaten by a goat!

Interesting and hilarious at the same time.

One question, according to Christianity, when Jesus returns will he fight against the Anti-Christ?

Yes, and the 'anti-christ' are all who oppose his rulership and standards.
 
Last edited:

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
The stoning and punishment of apostasy is mentioned in hadiths which we cannot take above Qur'an. However what contradicts Qur'an is not to be taken. And you must not forget that hadiths are not 100% reliable.
Punishment for adultery is 100 whips. As for apostasy, Allah swt mentioned only punishment in the hereafter.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
The stoning and punishment of apostasy is mentioned in hadiths which we cannot take above Qur'an. However what contradicts Qur'an is not to be taken. And you must not forget that hadiths are not 100% reliable.
Punishment for adultery is 100 whips. As for apostasy, Allah swt mentioned only punishment in the hereafter.

apparently its 100 whips for a man but death for a woman.

Do you know why there is a difference in punishment?
 
Top