Topic: Loving Jesus or Muhammad: Can I Have Both?

[Cordoba]

Yes, and the 'anti-christ' are all who oppose his rulership and standards.

So how come Jesus will contradict his own teachings?

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

apparently its 100 whips for a man but death for a woman.

Do you know why there is a difference in punishment?

It is for both man and woman. I dont know who told you that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

"I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery." - Mt 19:9

Is this supposed to mean that as long as you do not divorce your innocent first wife you can marry another?

Something like that, yes

You see .. some men might have 'got bored' with their wives and thought that it would be smart to divorce her and marry 'a new one' .. this meant that the man no longer had responsibility for his 'old wife' ..

Clearly, this is evil (unless the wife is guilty of some major sins)
A man who takes more than one wife is saddled with more responsibilty, and so it is not something easy .. but it's preferable to adultery, FOR SURE!

 

[muhammad_isa]

One question, according to Christianity, when Jesus returns will he fight against the Anti-Christ?

Yes, and the 'anti-christ' are all who oppose his rulership and standards.

I agree!
Yet you seem confused .. in an earlier post, you were claiming that Christ forbade war .. yet now you're saying that he will lead it..

 

[Pegg]

So how come Jesus will contradict his own teachings?

He wont contradict his own teachings. His teachings as found in the gospel are still his teachings today 2000 years later.

Jesus restated all of Gods original standards and requirements. He upheld the superior wisdom of the Almighty Father and he opposed man-made attitudes and rules which had developed during the time that mankind ruled themselves independently of God and when they established their own religions and their own religious & cultural ideas. .

Jesus will not support those man-made things. Mans religions and warped ideas of right and wrong will be put in the garbage where they deserve to be.

 

[Pegg]

It is for both man and woman. I dont know who told you that.

Sharia law as practiced in muslims countries told me that. Men receive lashes, women receive death by stoning.

 

[Pegg]

Something like that, yes

You see .. some men might have 'got bored' with their wives and thought that it would be smart to divorce her and marry 'a new one' .. this meant that the man no longer had responsibility for his 'old wife' ..

Clearly, this is evil (unless the wife is guilty of some major sins)
A man who takes more than one wife is saddled with more responsibilty, and so it is not something easy .. but it's preferable to adultery, FOR SURE!

I agree!
Yet you seem confused .. in an earlier post, you were claiming that Christ forbade war .. yet now you're saying that he will lead it..

He forbids his earthly followers to participate in acts of war. It is not our place to hurt our fellow man. But Christ is in a position of authority to do so. He is mankinds king and judge and he will judge the nations 'with an iron sword' says the bible. This means that he will hold the power to execute the unrighteous and to save the righteous. But no earthly person has such authority or power... rulership does not belong to people...that is what Jesus is going to change. He will take away all earthly authorities and remove all earthly systems which attempt to interfere with his rulership.... and the world will oppose him when the does which will lead us to the greatest battle the earth has ever seen -the battle of Armageddon.

 

[Woodrow LI]

i dont know, but in looking around it 'apparently' does not prescribe it even though sharia law (law based on the quran) imposes it quite frequently. Either the Quran says it, or no one wants to admit the quran says it. But if the quran does not say it, then why do they impose it? Is Islam doing something it should not?

Funny thing is i found some information saying the verses from the quran which did prescribe it was eaten by a goat!

Interesting and hilarious at the same time.



Yes, and the 'anti-christ' are all who oppose his rulership and standards.

Sharia is based only patially on the Qur'an, Under each of the 4 madhabs of Islamic Jurisprudence (Sharia) there are several sources used. I am most familiar with the Hanafi Madhab, it is the most flexible school of Sharia and it relies on several sources. It is quite adaptable to changes in cultures and nations

Hanafi legal methodology and the approach of the School to Usul-al-Fiqh

The legal rulings of all the Islamic Schools of law are based on the Quranic principles either in letter or in spirit or both. The Quran contains fairly substantial legislative material covering inheritance, marriage, divorce, laws of war, and several other civil and criminal issues. To solve further problems jurists resorted to the practices and words of the Prophet as contained in his Sunnah and after him, to the legal verdicts of those Companions who had been close enough to the Prophet to know what the Prophet had done had he been present at the moment. The Sunnah of the Prophet and the Companions was seen to emanate from the Quran itself as it was the principles of the Quran that they adopted and emulated in their lives. The Sunnah thus provided with valuable precedents in the legal practice. In an environment when a large number of Ahadith were being fabricated, the method for establishing the authenticity of a Hadith as adopted by Imam Abu Hanifa and other leading scholars required dual check, first regarding the credibility, experience, memory and righteousness of the transmitters transmitting in an unbroken chain and second regarding the content of the Hadith.

The Quran and Sunnah however did not offer the solution to every specific case that ever came before the community. The jurists in that case had recourse to such legal methods as Ijma (consensus) and Qiyas (analogical deduction). Ijma refers to the process of obtaining consensus regarding a particular legal problem among the Companions, their successors or all the mujtahids of any one of the future generations. A Hanafi scholar Shashi, writing in the eighth century CE, considers the consensus among few mujtahids accompanied by silence or absence of objection by all other Mujtahids a valid Ijma. The concept of Qiyas is of analogical deduction. If no direct solution is found regarding a particular case in Quran or Sunnah, the jurist identifies similar cases in these sources and if valid analogy is established between the two cases, the solution of the first case can be applied to the other. An example is that of permissibility of drinking date wine. The jurist finds out that the grape wine is prohibited because of its intoxicating affect. Since the harmful affect is also present in the date wine, it will also be prohibited as well. Apart from Ijma and Qiyas, Hanafi School introduced the concept of Istihsan (Juristic preference) as Maliki madhab introduced the method of istislah/maslah (public interest) to solve legal problems.
SOURCE

 

[Pegg]

Sharia is based only patially on the Qur'an, Under each of the 4 madhabs of Islamic Jurisprudence (Sharia) there are several sources used. I am most familiar with the Hanafi Madhab, it is the most flexible school of Sharia and it relies on several sources. It is quite adaptable to changes in cultures and nations

Hanafi legal methodology and the approach of the School to Usul-al-Fiqh

The legal rulings of all the Islamic Schools of law are based on the Quranic principles either in letter or in spirit or both. The Quran contains fairly substantial legislative material covering inheritance, marriage, divorce, laws of war, and several other civil and criminal issues. To solve further problems jurists resorted to the practices and words of the Prophet as contained in his Sunnah and after him, to the legal verdicts of those Companions who had been close enough to the Prophet to know what the Prophet had done had he been present at the moment. The Sunnah of the Prophet and the Companions was seen to emanate from the Quran itself as it was the principles of the Quran that they adopted and emulated in their lives. The Sunnah thus provided with valuable precedents in the legal practice. In an environment when a large number of Ahadith were being fabricated, the method for establishing the authenticity of a Hadith as adopted by Imam Abu Hanifa and other leading scholars required dual check, first regarding the credibility, experience, memory and righteousness of the transmitters transmitting in an unbroken chain and second regarding the content of the Hadith.

The Quran and Sunnah however did not offer the solution to every specific case that ever came before the community. The jurists in that case had recourse to such legal methods as Ijma (consensus) and Qiyas (analogical deduction). Ijma refers to the process of obtaining consensus regarding a particular legal problem among the Companions, their successors or all the mujtahids of any one of the future generations. A Hanafi scholar Shashi, writing in the eighth century CE, considers the consensus among few mujtahids accompanied by silence or absence of objection by all other Mujtahids a valid Ijma. The concept of Qiyas is of analogical deduction. If no direct solution is found regarding a particular case in Quran or Sunnah, the jurist identifies similar cases in these sources and if valid analogy is established between the two cases, the solution of the first case can be applied to the other. An example is that of permissibility of drinking date wine. The jurist finds out that the grape wine is prohibited because of its intoxicating affect. Since the harmful affect is also present in the date wine, it will also be prohibited as well. Apart from Ijma and Qiyas, Hanafi School introduced the concept of Istihsan (Juristic preference) as Maliki madhab introduced the method of istislah/maslah (public interest) to solve legal problems.
SOURCE

men are good at devising complex legal systems... Bring on Gods Kingdom with is simple legal system built on but 2 principles

1. Love God with your whole heart mind and strength
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

This is what the bible calls the 'kingly law' and the 'law of the Christ'

Its simple, and it can easily apply in all circumstances to all people at all times and solve all problems... it also prevents all problems.

 

[Woodrow LI]

men are good at devising complex legal systems... Bring on Gods Kingdom with is simple legal system built on but 2 principles

1. Love God with your whole heart mind and strength
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

This is what the bible calls the 'kingly law' and the 'law of the Christ'

Its simple, and it can easily apply in all circumstances to all people at all times and solve all problems... it also prevents all problems.

It also is not enforceable in this Human dunya where most people will not accept it.
It would work if all people had the same believes and had sincere belief in the existance of Gof(swt) but today that doe not exist.

 

[Woodrow LI]

men are good at devising complex legal systems... Bring on Gods Kingdom with is simple legal system built on but 2 principles

1. Love God with your whole heart mind and strength
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

This is what the bible calls the 'kingly law' and the 'law of the Christ'

Its simple, and it can easily apply in all circumstances to all people at all times and solve all problems... it also prevents all problems.

This is what the bible calls the 'kingly law' and the 'law of the Christ'

It is basically what we call sharia in Islam

1. Love God with your whole heart mind and strength
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[Pegg]

It also is not enforceable in this Human dunya where most people will not accept it.
It would work if all people had the same believes and had sincere belief in the existance of Gof(swt) but today that doe not exist.

well thats not a problem either because only those who really do love God will remain in the world.

What do you think judgement day actually is?

 

[Woodrow LI]

well thats not a problem either because only those who really do love God will remain in the world.

What do you think judgement day actually is?

Having been a Christian for most of my life, my concept is probably pretty much flavored by Christianity.

I spent the first half of my christian life as a Catholic and the second half as AoG (Assembly of God
I see those views as being the same as the Islamic view.

Short version-- All who lived will be held accountable for their transgressions and appropiate punishment will be meted out tempered with Mercy and Justice along with the sinerity of our rentence if we have repented and asked for forgiveness.
Islam also has a concept of Purgatory like what is found in Catholicism in that we will receive temporary punishment for sins we have not repented for.

 

[Pegg]

Having been a Christian for most of my life, my concept is probably pretty much flavored by Christianity.

I spent the first half of my christian life as a Catholic and the second half as AoG (Assembly of God
I see those views as being the same as the Islamic view.

Short version-- All who lived will be held accountable for their transgressions and appropiate punishment will be meted out tempered with Mercy and Justice along with the sinerity of our rentence if we have repented and asked for forgiveness.
Islam also has a concept of Purgatory like what is found in Catholicism in that we will receive temporary punishment for sins we have not repented for.

You might be surprised by what the bible says about death then... at death, all sins are forgiven. All transgressions are paid for. All our debt to God is finished.
Romans 6:7 For the one who has died has been acquitted* from his sin.

So if a persons sins are acquitted upon their death, then when they are resurrected, of what do they have to be judged? What do you think??

 

[Pegg]

This is what the bible calls the 'kingly law' and the 'law of the Christ'

It is basically what we call sharia in Islam

1. Love God with your whole heart mind and strength
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

Sharia imposes strict and cruel punishments by people who are just as imperfect and sinful as the one they are punishing. We've all seen the photographs of people being brutally punished, floggings, hit with sticks, stoned, heads cut off, hands cut off....seriously, sharia does not allow for 'love your neighbor as yourself' because as soon as you make a mistake, someone is coming over to beat you stupid! That is not 'love your neighbor as yourself'

Jesus rule will be different in that no one will have the power to pronounce any form of cruel punishment on anyone else. Its not mans job...it will be Jesus alone who will deal with sinners and he will do so in his own way.

 

[Woodrow LI]

You might be surprised by what the bible says about death then... at death, all sins are forgiven. All transgressions are paid for. All our debt to God is finished.
Romans 6:7 For the one who has died has been acquitted* from his sin.

So if a persons sins are acquitted upon their death, then when they are resurrected, of what do they have to be judged? What do you think??

Notice that does not apply to all, it has a qualifier with it.

1.What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Now unless you are a JW you probably understand it as meaning those that those not forgiven by Jesus are sent to eternal danmation

 

[Woodrow LI]

Sharia imposes strict and cruel punishments by people who are just as imperfect and sinful as the one they are punishing. We've all seen the photographs of people being brutally punished, floggings, hit with sticks, stoned, heads cut off, hands cut off....seriously, sharia does not allow for 'love your neighbor as yourself' because as soon as you make a mistake, someone is coming over to beat you stupid! That is not 'love your neighbor as yourself'

Jesus rule will be different in that no one will have the power to pronounce any form of cruel punishment on anyone else. Its not mans job...it will be Jesus alone who will deal with sinners and he will do so in his own way.

There seems to be somethings you don't understand about Sharia. the purpose of Sharia is not to punish, but rather to help a person avoid punishment.
I can not give an example of Sharia as no Nation follows it.
But many of us Muslims do not believe there will be Shariah until the return of Jesus and the Caliphate is established.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Sharia law as practiced in muslims countries told me that. Men receive lashes, women receive death by stoning.

then they are wrong

 

[Pegg]

Notice that does not apply to all, it has a qualifier with it.

1.What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Now unless you are a JW you probably understand it as meaning those that those not forgiven by Jesus are sent to eternal danmation

When the criminal besides Jesus on the torture stake asked him to remember him when he comes into his kingdom, what was Jesus reply?

Didn't he say "truly i tell you today you will be with me in paradise"

Hence, why would a criminal such as that man be promised a place in paradise? Obviously the verse at Romans 6:7 applies to all mankind in general. When anyone dies, believer or non-believer, their sins are paid for....they have paid the price for sin and hence their sins are forgiven.
This is the only explanation as to how that man could be promised a place in the paradise.

 

[Pegg]

There seems to be somethings you don't understand about Sharia. the purpose of Sharia is not to punish, but rather to help a person avoid punishment.
I can not give an example of Sharia as no Nation follows it.
But many of us Muslims do not believe there will be Shariah until the return of Jesus and the Caliphate is established.

Oh right, so all those images we see and accounts we read about muslims being put to death, stoned beaten etc are just false media...non of that really goes on?

Perhaps you prefer to believe these things occur due to cultural reasons rather then religious reasons? Unfortunately religion plays a major role in muslim culture and these things do occur because Islam prescribes it.

imo it needs to stop. People need to stop being executed or whipped or beaten because they failed to live perfectly. No one is perfect...where is the mercy Islam speaks so much about? Its not being demonstrated by muslims so how merciful can Islam really be?? Isnt it said that Allah is all merciful? Why dont muslims show the same mercy??