• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Too dumb to see?

sugnim

Member
Suppose that there is a god who wants humans to believe in him/her/it. And suppose, as some religions would have it, those who do not sincerely believe are to be punished. Now suppose further that a person does not believe in god because they are simply too stupid to see the truth. Would that person be deserving of divine punishment?

When I say "stupid," I'm using that term very loosely. The person I have in mind for this hypothetical is an otherwise capable person of average intelligence who leads a self-sufficient life and contributes to society appropriately. Our hypothetical person may even be considered to be educated, but just does not believe in any god. In our hypothetical, this person is ignorant of the truth, but not through personal choice or fault, rather simply because they couldn't make any sense of the proof they were offered.

Thoughts?
 

syo

Well-Known Member
Suppose that there is a god who wants humans to believe in him/her/it. And suppose, as some religions would have it, those who do not sincerely believe are to be punished. Now suppose further that a person does not believe in god because they are simply too stupid to see the truth. Would that person be deserving of divine punishment?

When I say "stupid," I'm using that term very loosely. The person I have in mind for this hypothetical is an otherwise capable person of average intelligence who leads a self-sufficient life and contributes to society appropriately. Our hypothetical person may even be considered to be educated, but just does not believe in any god. In our hypothetical, this person is ignorant of the truth, but not through personal choice or fault, rather simply because they couldn't make any sense of the proof they were offered.

Thoughts?
you describe a cult, not a religion. according to the cult, the ''stupid'' person would be punished.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Suppose that there is a god who wants humans to believe in him/her/it. And suppose, as some religions would have it, those who do not sincerely believe are to be punished. Now suppose further that a person does not believe in god because they are simply too stupid to see the truth. Would that person be deserving of divine punishment?

When I say "stupid," I'm using that term very loosely. The person I have in mind for this hypothetical is an otherwise capable person of average intelligence who leads a self-sufficient life and contributes to society appropriately. Our hypothetical person may even be considered to be educated, but just does not believe in any god. In our hypothetical, this person is ignorant of the truth, but not through personal choice or fault, rather simply because they couldn't make any sense of the proof they were offered.

Thoughts?
Or are the explainers to stupid to explain? A topic can be true and nonsense follows trying to explain it. Is the problem with the individual that can't understand the nonsense or the one creating the nonsense?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
There are too many "supposes" in the OP. I don't agree with them so take your OP as entirely hypothetical and not reflective of reality.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Suppose that there is a god who wants humans to believe in him/her/it. And suppose, as some religions would have it, those who do not sincerely believe are to be punished. Now suppose further that a person does not believe in god because they are simply too stupid to see the truth. Would that person be deserving of divine punishment?

Deserving according to whom?

One thing I often notice when humans pontificate upon theology is that they often do so with very anthropocentric assumptions that are ill-suited to the question at hand. In this particular case, for example, the question I posed above should be rhetorical. It logically follows that if a deity has laid out their rules and laws, the only entity that gets to decide who deserves what is that deity. The gods lay down the rules and what humans think about them and if it is "deserved" is entirely irrelevant. A human can say all it wants "I don't deserve to fall to my death if I walk off this cliff" but the gods don't care and are going to kill you anyway. Rules are rules.

This question gets at the broader issue of human beliefs about reality. In particular, a rather common narrative that there is some sort of cosmic justice system with score cards and such. These narratives exist because humans feel a deep need to rationalize or find meaning in things that happen to them (or other creatures/things). We're terrible at experiencing things at face value and do all sorts of story writing over the events of our lives. We insert all sorts of "deserved" and "ought to" and other assorted norms instead of being objective or impartial. This isn't a bad thing - impartial objectivity is horrifyingly boring. But I think it's good to recognize we're telling stories... and then ask ourselves if the stories are serving our needs well.

Stories about cosmic justice aren't very appealing to me. I think about the consequences of that narrative and don't like what I see. If we grant that there's some singular higher power who establishes cosmic justice, it's their way or bust. It sets the stage for an authoritarian way of living that denies alternatives and squelches diversity.
Not a fan.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Suppose that there is a god who wants humans to believe in him/her/it. And suppose, as some religions would have it, those who do not sincerely believe are to be punished. Now suppose further that a person does not believe in god because they are simply too stupid to see the truth. Would that person be deserving of divine punishment?
Under the condition you mentioned, Yes. Yes that person is deserving of divine punishment. Unfair? IMO, exceedingly so.

When I say "stupid," I'm using that term very loosely. The person I have in mind for this hypothetical is an otherwise capable person of average intelligence who leads a self-sufficient life and contributes to society appropriately. Our hypothetical person may even be considered to be educated, but just does not believe in any god. In our hypothetical, this person is ignorant of the truth, but not through personal choice or fault, rather simply because they couldn't make any sense of the proof they were offered.

Thoughts?
Ah ha! I see that you're talking about the loving and just god of Christianity.
popcorn.gif


.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Suppose that there is a god who wants humans to believe in him/her/it.
Believe it or not, this is about jobs. I read this question a lot. Actually I think that its ministers wanting people to believe in themselves and use this horribly tortured Bible language to justify their jobs. If they had a modicum of honesty (and they don't) they'd tell you that God wants your faith, not your 'Belief'. Belief changes from day to day and moment to moment. Faith is something else, but why would anyone tell you that if the people paying them aren't telling them to say it? Its about jobs.

Jesus is in the gospels and talks about faith moving mountains. Well guess what actually moves mountains? Faithfulness. Guess what doesn't? Beliefs. Guess what the translators should have written: They should have written that faithfulness moves mountains; but it wouldn't get them paid. Its entirely within the range of the language, but people do what they are paid to do, not what's best for you.

So, yeah, what if there was some God who wanted me to believe in him? Consider the following:

"But Joash replied to the hostile crowd around him, “Are you going to plead Baal’s cause? Are you trying to save him? Whoever fights for him shall be put to death by morning! If Baal really is a god, he can defend himself when someone breaks down his altar.” (NIV Judges 6:31)

If Baal is required to defend himself, then of course its no sin to doubt God its not like your are being unfaithful or mean. Surely God can defend himself if Baal is expected to! Why would you be forced to pay the price for not having beliefs that are alien to your nature? If God is upset over my non-belief, then he is lowered below Baal and is not anyone. The problem is when you lose faith in your minister, and he or she starts to worry about their job or whether they can get a vacation and so forth.

"....To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." (Micaiah 6:8 ) Keep in mind here that love and justice are paramount here, not beneath God but equals.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
I don't think it's about believing in God, it's adhering to a religion. Those who believe in God but don't believe in any religion get no credit, in my opinion.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Suppose that there is a god who wants humans to believe in him/her/it.

An omnipotent wants nothing from us. It's not like God is going to die unless some number of people make it into heaven.

When I say "stupid," I'm using that term very loosely. The person I have in mind for this hypothetical is an otherwise capable person of average intelligence who leads a self-sufficient life and contributes to society appropriately. Our hypothetical person may even be considered to be educated, but just does not believe in any god. In our hypothetical, this person is ignorant of the truth, but not through personal choice or fault, rather simply because they couldn't make any sense of the proof they were offered.

Thoughts?

Retards are generally not given the death penalty except in Texas.

I very much doubt a God of love would dole out punishment that would be considered to be cruel and unusual by secular law standards. Every one you sinned against gets to experience eternal heavenly bliss so it all works out in the end.

btw, there's no "truth" here. What you have is faith. You are making a number of assumptions as being true without any proof evidence.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Suppose that there is a god who wants humans to believe in him/her/it. And suppose, as some religions would have it, those who do not sincerely believe are to be punished. Now suppose further that a person does not believe in god because they are simply too stupid to see the truth. Would that person be deserving of divine punishment?

Suppose that the God who created us gave us instructions, right at the start. And suppose he had a reason not to make us 'programmed' like the animals, but wanted creatures to represent him on this planet to take care of what is already here in the way God wanted.

Now suppose he had to give those representatives qualities that would make them like himself....morality in a sense of right and wrong, a sense of justice so that dominion over God's creation and with each other would be fair, wisdom to work problems out peacefully, and the power to make good choices of their own free will. All the Creator required was obedience to his instructions, which as we know, was not rocket science....had those instructions been followed, none of us would be living this life and the world would not be in such turmoil.

Creation itself testifies to the existence and wisdom and generosity of the Creator, so obeying him was in their best interests. Disobeying the only negative command there was, meant death. By unleashing a knowledge of what God already knew would not benefit them in any way, humans set the stage for disobedience to spread throughout the earth's entire population with horrible results. But rebellion began in God's heavenly family. The first rebel was not human. But he lured the first humans into disobedience so that he could set himself up as their god. A truly pathetic substitute, as things turned out.

If you have a loving family and there are rebels in the house, then you know about the destructive influence that their behavior can have on everyone else who has to live with them and the consequences of what they do. God's formerly orderly heavenly 'family' now housed rebels.

But loving his children as he does, he gave them opportunity to realize the error of their ways by allowing them to experience the full consequences of their own actions, and make choices about their behavior. Experience is the best teacher.
That first rebel influenced quite a number of his own kind to join him in rebellion. That was an exercise of their free will....and that rebellion spread to us because satan tested our free will by lying about the penalty and making independence from God seem attractive...he still does.

So both humans and angels are undergoing the same test....will they use their God-given powers for good or will they abuse their free will and seek to satisfy their own desires to the detriment of others?

Are any of these creatures (human or angelic) too stupid to see the truth?...or is God catching all of us in the act of being ourselves? Do we want what God wants?...or do we only want what WE want?

The Creator has laid it all out in his instruction manual....and its there for all to see. Obey and live....disobey and die...that was the first and only law in the Garden of Eden....it still applies. But if a human is born with some kind of mental deficiency that precludes them from making the right choices, then God knows the heart of every individual and will judge them accordingly.

When I say "stupid," I'm using that term very loosely. The person I have in mind for this hypothetical is an otherwise capable person of average intelligence who leads a self-sufficient life and contributes to society appropriately. Our hypothetical person may even be considered to be educated, but just does not believe in any god. In our hypothetical, this person is ignorant of the truth, but not through personal choice or fault, rather simply because they couldn't make any sense of the proof they were offered.

"Stupid is as stupid does".....isn't that the truth? If the hypothetical person is of sound intelligence, then is there an excuse for them to disobey the laws of the Creator? If the Creator exists and will directly intervene in human affairs as he says he will, belief or unbelief will not save anyone. Obedience will. If you don't obey because you don't believe, then that is your problem. The same information is available to all. We all have the same choices.

Spirituality is inherent in the human race (to which history will attest). All cultures have their "religion" and beliefs. But like a muscle, spirituality gets weak if it is not used or exercised. That innate spirituality is strong in some people and not in others, so what are we to make of this? Who is responsible for who we become as adults? Why are some people so spiritual and others are not at all?

We are not individually created by God but by those who were our parents. Each had a gene pool that gave us a bit of who we are. So it is a bit of a lottery as to how we turn out. But we all have the same choices about who or what we will worship. For some it is a deity, for others it is celebrities or sports stars, for still others it is material things and the trappings of wealth; whatever it is that you give devotion to is "worship". Hearts make those choices.

Since the Bible says that the Creator wants to cleanse this earth of its current corrupt system of governance, he has issued a warning to all of earth's inhabitants of his intentions in much the same way as Noah warned the people of his day about what God was going to do back then. (Matthew 24:37-39) We all have the ability to weigh the evidence for ourselves and make a decision about it.

I believe that God's Kingdom will one day rule this earth and God is choosing its citizens as we speak. Do we individually have the qualities that God is looking for? If so we will be invited to enter......if not, then we have no place to go. There is nothing we can offer as an excuse because we all make our own decisions about these things. We pass the entrance exam...or we fail it. :shrug:
 
Top