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To provoke thought.

JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
How do you coax someone out of a mental morass of willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, and denial?
How do you persuade others to think critically and objectively?

Slowly.

Try to find out why they believe what they do. Are they clinging to a nonsense belief out of emotional security or some other personal attachment/reasoning? If so, you'll have to address the ill emotion before you can properly address the mistaken thought.

You'll also have to learn enough about the person to understand how to best communicate with them. If you holler and flail your arms, you could scare them away; on the flip side, another person may need you to holler and flail your arms.

It probably won't be done in a day, and you can't do it effectively with multiple people all at once. And sometimes a person is just too entrenched in their thoughts/beliefs that they've made a culture out of it, and trying to dislodge that becomes very difficult indeed.

Just my thoughts...
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
How do you coax someone out of a mental morass of willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, and denial?
How do you persuade others to think critically and objectively?
With empathy and encouragement?
I’m not sure.

Debate I think is largely unhelpful. Discussion where you sort of wear a person down, so to speak, might be useful. Get the person to ask questions. About themselves, about you, about their views, about yours etc. But do so in a non confrontational manner

I used to have very toxic views and failed to have any real empathy for my supposed “opponents.” For me it wasn’t so much someone opening my eyes to the wonder of critical thinking. It was experiencing/seeing the consequences of my worldview. Which admittedly did rely on my own introspection somewhat. After realising what had happened and figuring out how exhausting my toxicity was, I sort of snapped out of it. (Thankfully.)
 

JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
Debate I think is largely unhelpful.

I would agree with this... if anything, the heated emotions make a person cling to their original view all the more firmly.

I remember 'conversing' with someone who began yelling at me... I asked him "why are you yelling at me?" He replied "so you'll see reason!" It didn't make me see reason, it made me think he was a jerk.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Through evidence.
Through debate using either the Cartesian method or the Socratic method. Or other methods.

The "me versus you" approach is wrong a priori.

It is the approach of the person who knows/thinks they are right and the only approach they have is "I am right because I am I ...whereas you are wrong a priori".
 
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SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I would agree with this... if anything, the heated emotions make a person cling to their original view all the more firmly.

I agree. Though I think in academic settings heated debates can be a useful tool. But only if they have a good moderator to keep everyone in check.
More often than not though debates are about pageantry and showing off how awesome your ideas are. And how you totally “schooled your dumb opponent.” But how useful is that really?

I used to naively buy into the idea of “letting the marketplace of ideas decide.” But as someone once pointed out to me, you can find an audience for pretty much anything under the sun. So maybe don’t rely too much on said marketplace lol

I remember 'conversing' with someone who began yelling at me... I asked him "why are you yelling at me?" He replied "so you'll see reason!" It didn't make me see reason, it made me think he was a jerk.
Oof. I think I’ve managed to make myself look like an idiot more than once by being overly emotional and doubling down. Without the use of liquor even.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
How do you coax someone out of a mental morass of willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, and denial?

- give them a way to do it without losing face to their community/peer group.

- recognize that absurd-seeming views are often a coping mechanism. They're often responses to real, valid problems and concerns, even if they're unhealthy responses to those problems. You probably aren't going to shake someone loose from, say, conspiracy theories unless you can help them find better coping strategies.

- don't just give them facts; also give them a narrative that incorporates those facts into a new, cohesive worldview.

How do you persuade others to think critically and objectively?
Get them to make it part of their identity. Make it a point of pride that they abandon beliefs when they realize they aren't supported and suddenly you create a situation where they won't lose face for doing it.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
How do you coax someone out of a mental morass of willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, and denial?
How do you persuade others to think critically and objectively?

Personally, I lower my expectations. It's sad, but after you provide coaxing for an extended period of time, there really is no choice but to give up.

From that POV, although I can't ever recall being there personally, must provide a great deal of psychological comfort.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How do you coax someone out of a mental morass of willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, and denial?

I've never had any success there. I don't know that it can be done. What are you going to tell them to convince them that these are problems they have, or that they are problems? It might be different if they are young people, but in my experience, past a certain age, if that's who you are now, that's who you will always be.

How do you persuade others to think critically and objectively?

Once again, this is fruitless. Anybody that knows how to think critically does. Those that don't, don't because they can't. Most often, they don't even know what the phrase means.

Furthermore, critical thinking is a skill that only comes after years of university. I don't see it anywhere else. You don't have to go to university to be intelligent, but if you want to evaluate evidence properly and arrive at sound conclusions, you need to learn a lot of rules, and you need to learn them over years of practice. What fraction of people can construct a sound argument, or identify the fallacies in an unsound one, and what fraction of those have no advanced formal education?

We see plenty of people on these threads that do that quite competently, you included, but to the best of my knowledge, they are all college graduates. They go to Sunday school and learn the creation story through repetition and exhortation. Then, they go to university and take a class in biological evolution. Nobody says, "Today, we'll apply critical thinking." They are simply given the evidence available to Darwin and others since along the with arguments that lead to their conclusions, and see how it's done without the phrase ever being mentioned. Then they take a history class, then a math class, then an English literature class, and in each case, they will be presented facts, evidence (perhaps examples), arguments, and their conclusions, and by repeating this way of thinking over and again, they eventually learn the skill to a greater or lesser degree. I am quite sure that by the time I finished my education, I couldn't define the term critical thinking, although I was already doing it to some degree and with some success.

But it was only in the last few years here on RF that I have come to understand that most posters not only are unpracticed at critical thinking and can't make a sound argument, but also that large numbers don't know what it is or what it can do. This is manifest as, "That's only your opinion" when they see it. In fact, isn't that what Dunning-Kruger is all about. It refers to, "people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general," but I would suggest it is better described as underestimating the skills of others, a subtle distinction. That is, where I once thought that most people had at least an idea of what critical thinking is whether they had developed that skill in themselves or not, and that they respected it in others and hoped to do well at it themselves, that is not the case at all. When an anti-vaxxer takes advice from a crackpot rather than the consensus of recognized experts ("What does Fauci know about it anyway - he's just in it a big pharma's behest"), it's because he doesn't know that the opinions of the two are derived using different methods. He is unaware that there are other methods of determining what is true.

So, from that perspective, how do you persuade others to think critically? In the last third of life, you don't. You can't even teach them what it is, much less how to do it. The best one can hope for is to help them learn who to trust, and even that seems futile. I was thinking about this last night while watching the new and hearing about 140 Republicans signing a document repudiating the opinion of the RNC. I thought that that might reach some Republican voters in a way that the January 6th committee never could, since the latter is definitely not trusted. But teach them to think critically? That ship has sailed.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I've never had any success there. I don't know that it can be done. What are you going to tell them to convince them that these are problems they have, or that they are problems? It might be different if they are young people, but in my experience, past a certain age, if that's who you are now, that's who you will always be.



Once again, this is fruitless. Anybody that knows how to think critically does. Those that don't, don't because they can't. Most often, they don't even know what the phrase means.

Furthermore, critical thinking is a skill that only comes after years of university. I don't see it anywhere else. You don't have to go to university to be intelligent, but if you want to evaluate evidence properly and arrive at sound conclusions, you need to learn a lot of rules, and you need to learn them over years of practice. What fraction of people can construct a sound argument, or identify the fallacies in an unsound one, and what fraction of those have no advanced formal education?

We see plenty of people on these threads that do that quite competently, you included, but to the best of my knowledge, they are all college graduates. They go to Sunday school and learn the creation story through repetition and exhortation. Then, they go to university and take a class in biological evolution. Nobody says, "Today, we'll apply critical thinking." They are simply given the evidence available to Darwin and others since along the with arguments that lead to their conclusions, and see how it's done without the phrase ever being mentioned. Then they take a history class, then a math class, then an English literature class, and in each case, they will be presented facts, evidence (perhaps examples), arguments, and their conclusions, and by repeating this way of thinking over and again, they eventually learn the skill to a greater or lesser degree. I am quite sure that by the time I finished my education, I couldn't define the term critical thinking, although I was already doing it to some degree and with some success.

But it was only in the last few years here on RF that I have come to understand that most posters not only are unpracticed at critical thinking and can't make a sound argument, but also that large numbers don't know what it is or what it can do. This is manifest as, "That's only your opinion" when they see it. In fact, isn't that what Dunning-Kruger is all about. It refers to, "people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general," but I would suggest it is better described as underestimating the skills of others, a subtle distinction. That is, where I once thought that most people had at least an idea of what critical thinking is whether they had developed that skill in themselves or not, and that they respected it in others and hoped to do well at it themselves, that is not the case at all. When an anti-vaxxer takes advice from a crackpot rather than the consensus of recognized experts ("What does Fauci know about it anyway - he's just in it a big pharma's behest"), it's because he doesn't know that the opinions of the two are derived using different methods. He is unaware that there are other methods of determining what is true.

So, from that perspective, how do you persuade others to think critically? In the last third of life, you don't. You can't even teach them what it is, much less how to do it. The best one can hope for is to help them learn who to trust, and even that seems futile. I was thinking about this last night while watching the new and hearing about 140 Republicans signing a document repudiating the opinion of the RNC. I thought that that might reach some Republican voters in a way that the January 6th committee never could, since the latter is definitely not trusted. But teach them to think critically? That ship has sailed.
Me, someone without a university/college education: :(:(
But yeah I have to agree with you. Still, I feel called out lol :p
 
How do you coax someone out of a mental morass of willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, and denial?
How do you persuade others to think critically and objectively?

You don't. People generally don't realise they are doing it. It may be that people are even incapable of realising it due to cognitive bias.

Even intelligent, critically minded people who insist they are uber rational (and are 95% of the time), and would feel ashamed if they knew they were being naive and credulous often repeat palpable nonsense on certain issues they are emotionally attached to. They are not simply wrong, but impervious to correction.

There have even been studies that show people with superior reasoning abilities are less likely to change their minds when presented with evidence showing them to be wrong on issues they are emotionally attached to. This is presumably because they are are better at rationalising away their cognitive dissonance.

The thing to realise is that we all do this to some extent as we all have our blind spots.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
The first part is self work, demonstrating yourself as a person that that person can be confident in, that you're often correct and that you're happily open to being shown that you are incorrect. Studies have shown that people form opinions of "experts" or people they can trust and that those are the people they believe. It's also difficult to claim that position if you've already been evaluated otherwise.

Further, you have to make sure your interactions represent a recognition of your equality as persons and not superiority.

Lastly, you have to dissociate ideas from identity. Most people identify with at least some of their ideas, to challenge the idea is to challenge the idea of the person.

Then, you have to have patience for an opportunity that may not come.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
How do you coax someone out of a mental morass of willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, and denial?
How do you persuade others to think critically and objectively?
Evidence like others have suggested.

Also lead by example is a good venue.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Evidence like others have suggested.

Also lead by example is a good venue.
But that's the problem with those who are willfully ignorant, they only accept evidence when supports their preconceived views. They reject it otherwise.

As for example, I fully admit to being a poor one; trolling isn't a very persuasive tactic. In fact it usually causes others to double down.
 

Vitality

Member
Critical thinking is a learned skill. You cannot “pursuade” anyone to think more critically, but you can assist them with examining their analysis of information and teach them to recognize bias. The ability to apply critical thinking to broad concepts takes time to develop. Much like math requires an understanding of fundamental operations in order to perform more advanced calculations, critical thinking requires a foundation of discernment. Unfortunately, many people do not have the privilege of education that teaches them how to think. We are inundated by a surplus of information through various forms of media that allows people to find whatever most aligns with their personal ideas and values. It’s easier to accept the rationale of those who are in a place of superior authority or expertise than it is to analyze the process of said rationale, even if that rationale is riddled with bias and based on selective evidence.

So, how do you maneuver willful ignorance? With extreme patience and understanding that the likelihood of influencing someone to change their mind about something is slim. In most cases, it’s simply not worth engaging with people who are unwilling to see things from another perspective.
 
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Schwarzweg

Ullr, Nebet-Het,Wendigowak
How do you coax someone out of a mental morass of willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, and denial?
How do you persuade others to think critically and objectively?
Ich will gar nicht überzeugen .
Mir reicht es zu sagen ...................
Absolut ALLES...............................hat IMMER.....2 Seiten
Und egal wie wer eingestellt ist, man kann dann immer jeweils die andere Seite bringen
Und das bezieht sich auf MENSCHEN
OHNE Menschen ist es wie es ist , nur der Mensch teil alles ein
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
How do you coax someone out of a mental morass of willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, and denial?
How do you persuade others to think critically and objectively?


Identifying and correcting the faults of others is generally an unproductive pursuit in my experience; identifying and attempting to correct one's own, is more likely to pay dividends.
 
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