To Conservatives: George W. Bush on George Floyd and America's Duty

[Windwalker]

Empathy has the downside that it is typically directed at some, but not others.
If one values respect for others, then find leaders sharing that value.
Just having empathy is no predictor of peaceful policy.

True empathy know no boundaries. It does not see the other as "other", but as an extension of ourselves, as our very own even when they are complete strangers.

What you are describing is not a shortcoming of Love and innate human empathy, but ethnocentrism. It is a developmental stage which you find most dominant in traditionalist societies. At each successful stage, who gets included into that circle of love, widens and expands.

The problem isn't a shortcoming of empathy, but simply a developmental stage that cannot yet see beyond those it immediately recognizes as the same as them. This is why conservatism fights against pluralism. They can love their own just fine, but those others are still seen as outsiders, and hence, that love doesn't get extended to them. And then the baser parts of our humanity take over when confronted with them. The response is usually defensive, rather than accepting, let alone loving.

So there is limitation because of that, sure. But helping others to grow who that love and empathy extends to can be done. But what you cannot do, is give someone who is a true narcasist, human empathy. It's a defect, not a developmental stage that one can mature in. Trump is not capable of human empathy, at any level. Narcassists cannot recognize the feelings of others. It's all seen as a reflection of themselves, like a child playing with barbie dolls.

 

[Kenny]

Think about these things.

Statement by President George W. Bush | Bush Center

Laura and I are anguished by the brutal suffocation of George Floyd and disturbed by the injustice and fear that suffocate our country. Yet we have resisted the urge to speak out, because this is not the time for us to lecture. It is time for us to listen. It is time for America to examine our tragic failures – and as we do, we will also see some of our redeeming strengths.

It remains a shocking failure that many African Americans, especially young African American men, are harassed and threatened in their own country. It is a strength when protesters, protected by responsible law enforcement, march for a better future. This tragedy — in a long series of similar tragedies — raises a long overdue question: How do we end systemic racism in our society? The only way to see ourselves in a true light is to listen to the voices of so many who are hurting and grieving. Those who set out to silence those voices do not understand the meaning of America — or how it becomes a better place.

America’s greatest challenge has long been to unite people of very different backgrounds into a single nation of justice and opportunity. The doctrine and habits of racial superiority, which once nearly split our country, still threaten our Union. The answers to American problems are found by living up to American ideals — to the fundamental truth that all human beings are created equal and endowed by God with certain rights. We have often underestimated how radical that quest really is, and how our cherished principles challenge systems of intended or assumed injustice. The heroes of America — from Frederick Douglass, to Harriet Tubman, to Abraham Lincoln, to Martin Luther King, Jr. — are heroes of unity. Their calling has never been for the fainthearted. They often revealed the nation’s disturbing bigotry and exploitation — stains on our character sometimes difficult for the American majority to examine. We can only see the reality of America's need by seeing it through the eyes of the threatened, oppressed, and disenfranchised.

That is exactly where we now stand. Many doubt the justice of our country, and with good reason. Black people see the repeated violation of their rights without an urgent and adequate response from American institutions. We know that lasting justice will only come by peaceful means. Looting is not liberation, and destruction is not progress. But we also know that lasting peace in our communities requires truly equal justice. The rule of law ultimately depends on the fairness and legitimacy of the legal system. And achieving justice for all is the duty of all.

This will require a consistent, courageous, and creative effort. We serve our neighbors best when we try to understand their experience. We love our neighbors as ourselves when we treat them as equals, in both protection and compassion. There is a better way — the way of empathy, and shared commitment, and bold action, and a peace rooted in justice. I am confident that together, Americans will choose the better way. ​

Great speech...

Lousy OP Title

 

[Wandering Monk]

Sadly, at this point I have to wonder how much 'empathy' is actually genuine rather than 'expedient.' I see mayors taking the knee DAYS AFTER protests and riots started.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

You ca bet the Bush is now an enemy in the opinion of Trump stalwarts, Just like Laura Ingram, Fox News, George Will and others who dare criticize their orange god,

"Dubya isn't a REAL Republican" in 3...2...

 

[Revoltingest]

True empathy know no boundaries.

I just invented the "No True Empath".

It does not see the other as "other", but as an extension of ourselves, as our very own even when they are complete strangers.

What you are describing is not a shortcoming of Love and innate human empathy, but ethnocentrism. It is a developmental stage which you find most dominant in traditionalist societies. At each successful stage, who gets included into that circle of love, widens and expands.

The problem isn't a shortcoming of empathy, but simply a developmental stage that cannot yet see beyond those it immediately recognizes as the same as them. This is why conservatism fights against pluralism. They can love their own just fine, but those others are still seen as outsiders, and hence, that love doesn't get extended to them. And then the baser parts of our humanity take over when confronted with them. The response is usually defensive, rather than accepting, let alone loving.

So there is limitation because of that, sure. But helping others to grow who that love and empathy extends to can be done. But what you cannot do, is give someone who is a true narcasist, human empathy. It's a defect, not a developmental stage that one can mature in. Trump is not capable of human empathy, at any level. Narcassists cannot recognize the feelings of others. It's all seen as a reflection of themselves, like a child playing with barbie dolls.

Empathy can certainly be useful, but as we've seen, the empath, GW Bush,
still started 2 terrible useless wars. This shows that empathy can lead to
irrational behavior, & even vengeance.
Also, I find the charge that Trump lacks empathy to be extremely convenient,
& not backed up by objective analysis. Like Dubya, Trump has those he cares
about, & also those he's willing to sacrifice for a wrongful agenda.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Think about these things.

Statement by President George W. Bush | Bush Center

Laura and I are anguished by the brutal suffocation of George Floyd and disturbed by the injustice and fear that suffocate our country. Yet we have resisted the urge to speak out, because this is not the time for us to lecture. It is time for us to listen. It is time for America to examine our tragic failures – and as we do, we will also see some of our redeeming strengths.

It remains a shocking failure that many African Americans, especially young African American men, are harassed and threatened in their own country. It is a strength when protesters, protected by responsible law enforcement, march for a better future. This tragedy — in a long series of similar tragedies — raises a long overdue question: How do we end systemic racism in our society? The only way to see ourselves in a true light is to listen to the voices of so many who are hurting and grieving. Those who set out to silence those voices do not understand the meaning of America — or how it becomes a better place.

America’s greatest challenge has long been to unite people of very different backgrounds into a single nation of justice and opportunity. The doctrine and habits of racial superiority, which once nearly split our country, still threaten our Union. The answers to American problems are found by living up to American ideals — to the fundamental truth that all human beings are created equal and endowed by God with certain rights. We have often underestimated how radical that quest really is, and how our cherished principles challenge systems of intended or assumed injustice. The heroes of America — from Frederick Douglass, to Harriet Tubman, to Abraham Lincoln, to Martin Luther King, Jr. — are heroes of unity. Their calling has never been for the fainthearted. They often revealed the nation’s disturbing bigotry and exploitation — stains on our character sometimes difficult for the American majority to examine. We can only see the reality of America's need by seeing it through the eyes of the threatened, oppressed, and disenfranchised.

That is exactly where we now stand. Many doubt the justice of our country, and with good reason. Black people see the repeated violation of their rights without an urgent and adequate response from American institutions. We know that lasting justice will only come by peaceful means. Looting is not liberation, and destruction is not progress. But we also know that lasting peace in our communities requires truly equal justice. The rule of law ultimately depends on the fairness and legitimacy of the legal system. And achieving justice for all is the duty of all.

This will require a consistent, courageous, and creative effort. We serve our neighbors best when we try to understand their experience. We love our neighbors as ourselves when we treat them as equals, in both protection and compassion. There is a better way — the way of empathy, and shared commitment, and bold action, and a peace rooted in justice. I am confident that together, Americans will choose the better way. ​

You know your racism and authoritarianism is bad when George W. Bush thinks you've gone too far.

 

[Windwalker]

I just invented the "No True Empath".

People commonly speak in terms of how genuine love acts, vs. does not act. It's not a fallacy. In fact the entire chapter of 1 Cor. 13 sets out to do just that, to give examples of what true love is, and is not. You must have heard it quoted in full before at someone's wedding, or two?

Empathy can certainly be useful, but as we've seen, the empath, GW Bush,
still started 2 terrible useless wars. This shows that empathy can lead to
irrational behavior, & even vengeance.

Nonsense. Empathy or love does not lead to those. "Love works no ill". I completely agree with that scripture, even though I don't believe the bible is supernatural. People who have experienced genuine love, recognize the truth of that. If you love someone, you will do them no harm. It's kind of common sense actually.

Also, I find the charge that Trump lacks empathy to be extremely convenient,
& not backed up by objective analysis. Like Dubya, Trump has those he cares
about, & also those he's willing to sacrifice for a wrongful agenda.

It's not political in nautre when I say that. It's pyschological in nature. I recognize the personality disorder when I see it. I grew up with a familiy member with this disorder.

The problem with the United States, is typical in families with a someone with a disorder. They keep thinking they are normal. Trump is not normal. He is a true narcassist, as well as a number of other things. I would not say the same of any other president. Only him.

 

[Revoltingest]

People commonly speak in terms of how genuine love acts, vs. does not act. It's not a fallacy. In fact the entire chapter of 1 Cor. 13 sets out to do just that, to give examples of what true love is, and is not. You must have heard it quoted in full before at someone's wedding, or two?

Poetic recitations at weddings aren't a good basis for philosophy, psychology, or sociology.

Nonsense. Empathy or love does not lead to those.

I said "can lead to". A vast difference there.
Empathy is about emotion, which isn't the best basis for reason.
Hence Dubya's invasion of Iraq & Afghanistan with unrealistic
expectations. His & Congress's emotions over-rode cold hard
judgement...which was what we really needed. They never
considered the likely alternative consequences.

"Love works no ill". I completely agree with that scripture, even though I don't believe the bible is supernatural. People who have experienced genuine love, recognize the truth of that. If you love someone, you will do them no harm. It's kind of common sense actually.

I've no use for scripture. It's vague, not "truth", & unreliable.
Much carnage is caused by people who have love & empathy.
The victims just got on the wrong side of it.

It's not political in nautre when I say that. It's pyschological in nature. I recognize the personality disorder when I see it. I grew up with a familiy member with this disorder.

The problem with the United States, is typical in families with a someone with a disorder. They keep thinking they are normal. Trump is not normal. He is a true narcassist, as well as a number of other things. I would not say the same of any other president. Only him.

All the psychological reasoning aside, GW Bush's wonderful
empathy still sent us into those devastating yet unproductive wars.
Put your trust in those who value pease & respect for others if
that's what you really want, rather than trusting expressions of
warm feelings.

How would one even detect true empathy or true love?
Does Biden have it?

 

[Father Heathen]

If Bush were to play his cards right, and keep his head and heart in the right place, he could do as Carter has; a bad president who became a good philanthropist.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If Bush were to play his cards right, and keep his head and heart in the right place, he could do as Carter has; a bad president who became a good philanthropist.

Yeah, Bush was a horrible president (I wore that "Not My President" shirt in high school) but I don't think him or Laura are necessarily horrible human beings.

 

[Father Heathen]

Yeah, Bush was a horrible president (I wore that "Not My President" shirt in high school) but I don't think him or Laura are necessarily horrible human beings.

I think Bush was just misguided, clueless, and manipulated by those around him. He doesn't seem to have the narcissistic and vindictive nature that Trump has.

Here's an interesting read from a while back:
Michelle Obama defends friendship with George W. Bush

 

[Windwalker]

Poetic recitations at weddings aren't a good basis for philosophy, psychology, or sociology.

Says who? Of course they are. Poetry speaks the greatest truths. And one can study the effects of love in each of these fields.

I said "can lead to". A vast difference there.

Not much of a difference at all actually. Whether it's will lead to, or can lead to, both are nonsense statements. Love cannot, nor will not lead to violence and retribution. It's like you cannot be both happy and angry at the same time. You cannot be both violent and peaceful. Love does not lead to murder.

What you are doing is mistaking love for possesivness and desire, fueled by fear. It's fear that leads to all of that, not love. Love leads to the opposite of harm to others.

Empathy is about emotion, which isn't the best basis for reason.

Ah, not really. Empathy is about perception. Different kinds of emotions may or may not follow as a result of that perception, but empathy is about recognizing the value and worth in another person as if they were extensions of yourself. It's the simple abiltiy to relate to how another feels looking at the world through their eyes. It's a developmental thing. And it becomes more of a way of thinking, an attitude more than just emotion.

If you want a more sciencey understanding, rather than a poetic expression of a human realization, then link it to mirror neurons. Those are not emotion centers. They have to do with how we recognize others.

Here. I think they may help you understand exactly what this is about. It's a really good talk with animation, and it's like lifting the skull cap on my head and looking inside to how I see these things working together. We are wired for empathy for survival. Some people have that broken and it does not function. Trump's brain is broken.

Hence Dubya's invasion of Iraq & Afghanistan with unrealistic
expectations. His & Congress's emotions over-rode cold hard
judgement...which was what we really needed. They never
considered the likely alternative consequences.

That is because they were not acting out of love and compassion through empathy. They were acting out of self-intest driven by a thirst for vengence, dominance, money, poll ratings, etc. Not one of those is even remotely guided or tempered by empathy or love. The opposite is the case.

A man who murders his girlfriend because he is jealous of her, is not acting out of love. He is acting out of fear. Fear is the opposite of love. Fear is the absence of love. Here's some more poetry for you. "Love casts out all fear". It happens to be true.

I've no use for scripture. It's vague, not "truth", & unreliable.

Understood the way fundamentalist use it, I have no use for it either. I'm not a literalist or a supernaturalist. However, the pages do not have to be supernatural in order to speak human truths that mystics and poets and lovers the world over recognize as true, whether or not that poetry was part of their culture. These are human truths that are found in all the world's religions and philosophies. "Love works no ill." is an axiom that just happens to be in scripture too.

Much carnage is caused by people who have love & empathy.
The victims just got on the wrong side of it.

Absolutely not. Fear, anger, jealousy and rage do all of that. Those happen when you do not love and do the opposite of what love does. Did you mother love you so much she choked you to death? Considering you're still here, her love preserved your life and nurtured it for you, rather than taking her self interests ahead of your own.

How would one even detect true empathy or true love?

"Love works no ill". Love treats others as extensions of itself, without conditions. Also, another human axiom that happens to be in scripture too, "By their fruits you shall know them". Does it generate peace, forgiveness, help, support, safety, unity? Then that's love being detected. Does it generate fear, angry, vengeance, dishonesty with others, death, disease, famine, and war? Then that is how you detect that love is not present.

These are things they teach in Sunday School. Unfortunately, it seems very few were paying much attention.

Does Biden have it?

Yes, I believe that. I believe you do to. I believe all healthy normal human beings have the capacity for it (see video above). Trump does not have it however. As he is psychologically damaged.

 

[Revoltingest]

Says who?

Says me.

Of course they are. Poetry speaks the greatest truths. And one can study the effects of love in each of these fields.

One person's "truth" isn't necessarily another's.

Not much of a difference at all actually. Whether it's will lead to, or can lead to, both are nonsense statements. Love cannot, nor will not lead to violence and retribution. It's like you cannot be both happy and angry at the same time. You cannot be both violent and peaceful. Love does not lead to murder.

What you are doing is mistaking love for possesivness and desire, fueled by fear. It's fear that leads to all of that, not love. Love leads to the opposite of harm to others.


Ah, not really. Empathy is about perception. Different kinds of emotions may or may not follow as a result of that perception, but empathy is about recognizing the value and worth in another person as if they were extensions of yourself. That's more an attitude than an emotion.

If you want a more sciencey understanding, rather than a poetic expression of a human realization, then link it to mirror neurons. Those are not emotion centers. They have to do with how we recognize others.

Here. I think they may help you understand exactly what this is about. It's a really good talk with animation, and it's like lifting the skull cap on my head and looking inside to how I see these things working together. We are wired for empathy for survival. Some people have that broken and it does not function. Trump's brain is broken.

That is because they were not acting out of love and compassion through empathy. They were acting out of self-intest driven by a thirst for vengence, dominance, money, poll ratings, etc. Not one of those is even remotely guided or tempered by empathy or love. The opposite is the case.

A man who murders his girlfriend because he is jealous of her, is not acting out of love. He is acting out of fear. Fear is the opposite of love. Fear is the absence of love. Here's some more poetry for you. "Love casts out all fear". It happens to be true.


Understood the way fundamentalist use it, I have no use for it either. I'm not a literalist or a supernaturalist. However, the pages do not have to be supernatural in order to speak human truths that mystics and poets and lovers the world over recognize as true, whether or not that poetry was part of their culture. These are human truths that are found in all the world's religions and philosophies. "Love works no ill." is an axiom that just happens to be in scripture too.


Absolutely not. Fear, anger, jealousy and rage do all of that. Those happen when you do not love and do the opposite of what love does. Did you mother love you so much she choked you to death? Considering you're still here, her love preserved your life and nurtured it for you, rather than taking her self interests ahead of your own.


"Love works no ill". Love treats others as extensions of itself, without conditions. Also, another human axiom that happens to be in scripture too, "By their fruits you shall know them". Does it generate peace, forgiveness, help, support, safety, unity? Then that's love being detected. Does it generate fear, angry, vengeance, dishonesty with others, death, disease, famine, and war? Then that is how you detect that love is not present.

These are things they teach in Sunday School. Unfortunately, it seems very few were paying much attention.


Yes, I believe that. I believe you do to. I believe all healthy normal human beings have the capacity for it (see video above). Trump does not have it however. As he is broken pyschologically.

I think we should agree to disagree about the relative importance of empathy vs values.

 

[Windwalker]

Says me.

One person's "truth" isn't necessarily another's.

I think we should agree to disagree about the relative importance of empathy vs values.

I don't think we agree to disagree at all. There's no basis to support your argument. It's just incorrect. I really recommend watching that video.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think we agree to disagree at all. There's no basis to support your argument. It's just incorrect. I really recommend watching that video.

This is not a debate forum.
You ought not be trying to win,
particularly in matters of opinion.

 

[Windwalker]

This is not a debate forum.
You ought not be trying to win,
particularly in matters of opinion.

I understand now you're not interested in supporting your opinions, as you consider that debating. I don't however, and consider supporting our opinions to be a part of normal discussions, and not debating. Thanks for your time. I'll know what to expect going forward.

 

[Revoltingest]

I understand now you're not interested in supporting your opinions, as you consider that debating. I don't however, and consider supporting our opinions to be a part of normal discussions, and not debating. Thanks for your time. I'll know what to expect going forward.

Tis best to not presume to tell others what interests them.
I've been supporting my views, but perhaps not satisfactorily.
Neither of us has "the truth". So I prefer to recognize irreconcilable
differences of opinion, & to accept them with equanimity.

 

[Windwalker]

Tis best to not presume to tell others what interests them.
I've been supporting my views, but perhaps not satisfactorily.
Neither of us has "the truth". So I prefer to recognize irreconcilable
differences of opinion, & to accept them with equanimity.

nonsense. discussion over.

 

[Revoltingest]

nonsense. discussion over.

I thought to end it gracefully.

 

[metis]

Says who? Of course they are. Poetry speaks the greatest truths. And one can study the effects of love in each of these fields.


Not much of a difference at all actually. Whether it's will lead to, or can lead to, both are nonsense statements. Love cannot, nor will not lead to violence and retribution. It's like you cannot be both happy and angry at the same time. You cannot be both violent and peaceful. Love does not lead to murder.

What you are doing is mistaking love for possesivness and desire, fueled by fear. It's fear that leads to all of that, not love. Love leads to the opposite of harm to others.


Ah, not really. Empathy is about perception. Different kinds of emotions may or may not follow as a result of that perception, but empathy is about recognizing the value and worth in another person as if they were extensions of yourself. It's the simple abiltiy to relate to how another feels looking at the world through their eyes. It's a developmental thing. And it becomes more of a way of thinking, an attitude more than just emotion.

If you want a more sciencey understanding, rather than a poetic expression of a human realization, then link it to mirror neurons. Those are not emotion centers. They have to do with how we recognize others.

Here. I think they may help you understand exactly what this is about. It's a really good talk with animation, and it's like lifting the skull cap on my head and looking inside to how I see these things working together. We are wired for empathy for survival. Some people have that broken and it does not function. Trump's brain is broken.

That is because they were not acting out of love and compassion through empathy. They were acting out of self-intest driven by a thirst for vengence, dominance, money, poll ratings, etc. Not one of those is even remotely guided or tempered by empathy or love. The opposite is the case.

A man who murders his girlfriend because he is jealous of her, is not acting out of love. He is acting out of fear. Fear is the opposite of love. Fear is the absence of love. Here's some more poetry for you. "Love casts out all fear". It happens to be true.


Understood the way fundamentalist use it, I have no use for it either. I'm not a literalist or a supernaturalist. However, the pages do not have to be supernatural in order to speak human truths that mystics and poets and lovers the world over recognize as true, whether or not that poetry was part of their culture. These are human truths that are found in all the world's religions and philosophies. "Love works no ill." is an axiom that just happens to be in scripture too.


Absolutely not. Fear, anger, jealousy and rage do all of that. Those happen when you do not love and do the opposite of what love does. Did you mother love you so much she choked you to death? Considering you're still here, her love preserved your life and nurtured it for you, rather than taking her self interests ahead of your own.


"Love works no ill". Love treats others as extensions of itself, without conditions. Also, another human axiom that happens to be in scripture too, "By their fruits you shall know them". Does it generate peace, forgiveness, help, support, safety, unity? Then that's love being detected. Does it generate fear, angry, vengeance, dishonesty with others, death, disease, famine, and war? Then that is how you detect that love is not present.

These are things they teach in Sunday School. Unfortunately, it seems very few were paying much attention.


Yes, I believe that. I believe you do to. I believe all healthy normal human beings have the capacity for it (see video above). Trump does not have it however. As he is psychologically damaged.

The opposite of "empathy" is "self-centeredness", which is the domain of "right libertarians" and some other elements that are heavily "into themselves".