To any Atheists, I Have a Few Scenarios for you to Look At.

[DarkSun]

Because, as I said, the scientific method can address certain claims made about God. You even agreed to a specific case. No, science is never going to say "God does not exist", but that's mainly because of the wide range of meanings for "God" that exist. Science can say that certain qualities don't work.

I haven't admitted that. You just want me to have done that. What I've admitted is that science can prove and disprove some claims about God. If the claims concerning a certain god concept are proven wrong, it's more logical not to believe in that god concept.

Hypothesis: An omnimax, intervening, loving, creator god exists.
Tests: Looking for evidence in the universe that could only point to that being existing.
Results: Some people claim it's true, but that's the only "evidence" - if you consider it that - to be found.
Conclusion: As far as we're concerned this god does not exist.

Well, I suppose omnimax, intervening, loving and creator are qualities which can be attributed to God. But how would you disprove the existence of a creator God? What about a loving God?

 

[Magic Man]

Well, I suppose omnimax, intervening, loving and creator are qualities which can be attributed to God. But how would you disprove the existence of a creator God? What about a loving God?

OK, now we're getting somewhere. You can't disprove the existence of a creator God, at least not with the info available to us right now. You can disprove a loving God with facts about the world and logic, though. An all-loving God doesn't make sense with the existence of evil.

 

[DarkSun]

Who ever said it was? I've told you several times that this is the problem. No one has ever claimed this, at least not here. We're talking specifically about one particular god, not all forms of god. Talking about all forms of god is just stupid. There are too many versions to have a meaningful conversation. All we're concerned with is the one god concept, the Abrahamic one.

I don't see why we should focus on the Abrahamic God when you don't believe in any form of God at all.

Anyway... I'm going to go now. I'm over this, to be honest.

Good night.

 

[DarkSun]

OK, now we're getting somewhere. You can't disprove the existence of a creator God, at least not with the info available to us right now.

Funny that. And can you stop using the plaural "us" and "we"? It sounds as if you're being exclusivistic.

You can disprove a loving God with facts about the world and logic, though. An all-loving God doesn't make sense with the existence of evil.

That's not empirical evidence.

Besides, evil could come from human flaw, not from any Creator.


... And how is attempting to disprove the qualities of one God (and failing...) relevant to disproving the existence of any God?

 

[Magic Man]

I don't see why we should focus on the Abrahamic God when you don't believe in any form of God at all.

ARGGHH! I never said I don't believe in any form of God! I've even said that I believe in some forms. Some people say "God is love", so obviously I believe in love. I don't necessarily reject all forms of God. I don't believe in the classic theistic God, which is what atheism is, a-theism, not theism.

Anyway... I'm going to go now. I'm over this, to be honest.

That would be fine, if I didn't think you were just going to bring this up again later on some time.

The one thing you need to get through your head is that atheists don't necessarily reject every form of god. They do reject the theistic God I've mentioned and that's why they call themselves atheists. They might reject others, too, but they probably won't claim that those others don't make sense the way the theistic one doesn't make sense.

See, it's you who needs to understand atheists, not vice versa.

 

[Magic Man]

Funny that.

No, it's not. There's nothing really funny about it.

That's not empirical evidence.

Yes, it is.

Besides, evil could come from human flaw, not from any Creator.

Where does that human flaw come from then, if not from the Creator?

 

[DarkSun]

Bye. :help:

 

[Magic Man]

Bye. :help:

Not really surprising, I guess. You came in to "correct" atheists on their viewpoint, and when it becomes clear that it's yours that needs correcting, you decide to just leave. Well, that certainly does drop your credibility and respectability.

 

[DarkSun]

Yes, it is.

Not in science, mate. Empirical evidence in science is based on experimental results... which is another reason why God doesn't come into it.

Where does that human flaw come from then, if not from the Creator?

Heard of free will?

 

[DarkSun]

Not really surprising, I guess. You came in to "correct" atheists on their viewpoint, and when it becomes clear that it's yours that needs correcting, you decide to just leave. Well, that certainly does drop your credibility and respectability.

It's currently 11.25pm, I need to wake up at 4am. And it speaks volumes of my credibility to want to go to bed?

Honestly, cut the Gustapo cr*p and lose the arrogance.

 

[Magic Man]

Not in science, mate. Empirical evidence in science is based on experimental results... which is another reason why God doesn't come into it.

Yup, in science, mate. You take what you know (that bad things exist) and combine it with the claim, and, presto!, they don't work.

Heard of free will?

Yup. And where does that come from again? I could be mistaken, but what I was told in 8 years of Catholic school was that free will was given to us by God.

 

[Magic Man]

It's currently 11.25pm, I need to wake up at 4am. And it speaks volumes of my credibility to want to go to bed?

No, what spoke to your credibility was saying you're getting bored with this and then saying "Bye", as if you weren't coming back. If you're coming back, that's a different story.

Honestly, cut the Gustapo cr*p and lose the arrogance.

 

[DarkSun]

ARGGHH! I never said I don't believe in any form of God! I've even said that I believe in some forms. Some people say "God is love", so obviously I believe in love. I don't necessarily reject all forms of God. I don't believe in the classic theistic God, which is what atheism is, a-theism, not theism.



That would be fine, if I didn't think you were just going to bring this up again later on some time.

The one thing you need to get through your head is that atheists don't necessarily reject every form of god. They do reject the theistic God I've mentioned and that's why they call themselves atheists. They might reject others, too, but they probably won't claim that those others don't make sense the way the theistic one doesn't make sense.

See, it's you who needs to understand atheists, not vice versa.

So you don't believe in theistic gods? Do you have evidence for that?

 

[DarkSun]

No, what spoke to your credibility was saying you're getting bored with this and then saying "Bye", as if you weren't coming back. If you're coming back, that's a different story.

Except in this case, you don't KNOW anything. You've just pre-empted the fact that God doesn't exist based on your own experience. And no, your own individual experiences do not count as empirical evidence in science.

Thanks. You just proved me right.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

Both theists and atheists have evidence to support their view. They're both using inductive reasoning. But that doesn't mean either of them have empirical evidence for or against - which is what I'm basing my "equally justified" statement on.

I would disagree.
I have already seen conclusive logical arguments against specific gods. I havent seen any conclusive argument for any god.

I have seen empirical evidence against specific actions that specific gods supposedly undertook or undertake. I havent seen any empirical evidence for any god yet.

To call such a situation "equal" is in my view not really reasonable.

Please also do keep in mind that the proposition of "a" god actually always has been related to specific religions in the past.
It is not so as if the discussion whether "god" exists or not had been going on when no monotheistic religion had before conquered the world.....

Your generalization of the god question to any god is the grave mistake you make.

 

[Magic Man]

So you don't believe in theistic gods? Do you have evidence for that?

I see you haven't been paying attention.

 

[DarkSun]

No, what spoke to your credibility was saying you're getting bored with this and then saying "Bye", as if you weren't coming back. If you're coming back, that's a different story.

Good night.

 

[DarkSun]

I see you haven't been paying attention.

I see you still haven't given me any evidence.

 

[Magic Man]

Except in this case, you don't KNOW anything. You've just pre-empted the fact that God doesn't exist based on your own experience. And no, your own individual experiences do not count as empirical evidence in science.

Pre-empted? Which word did you mean to use there?

No, my own individual experiences alone don't. Luckily, I'm not going on just my own.

Thanks. You just proved me right.

 

[Magic Man]

Good night.

I fixed it for you.