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Three days and three nights?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Ken Brown, Mar 20, 2013.

  1. Ken Brown

    Ken Brown Well-Known Member

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    I know this has been discussed before, but seeing we are at that time of year, I thought I would bring up some very conclusive evidence that Yeshua was in the tomb for three days and three nights.

    At the heart of proving Yeshua died, and was placed in the tomb on Wednesday at sunset, and then resurrected 72 hours later on the Sabbath at sunset, is the women who bought and prepared burial perfumes.

    These women followed Yeshua from Galilee and Luke 23:55-56 states they were out at the tomb as the Sabbath was about to begin, and they watched as the stone was rolled over the entrance to the tomb Matt 27:60-61.

    Now, Luke states that they "returned" and prepared the burial perfumes and then "rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." So those who think it was Friday have to imagine the women returning someplace (they were outside the city) and then prepare these burial perfumes. If you would do a search on how perfumes were made in those days, you will find out that a fire has to be made, oil boiled, spices added, and it was a very lengthy process. To imagine that they could return to where they either had come from or to where they were staying and then do all this BEFORE the Sabbath started is very unreasonable.

    But then we have Mark's account. Mark states that AFTER the Sabbath the women purchase the ingredients for the burial perfumes (Mark 16:1) How is it that the burial perfumes can be prepared BEFORE the ingredients are purchased, that is IF they prepared them on Friday evening? So this appears to be a very substantial contradiction between Luke and Mark, doesn't it?

    Not really, if it was a Wednesday death and burial. In the Torah, the day which follows the Passover (Nissan 14) is always a Sabbath (Nissan 15), a special Sabbath or High Day as John speaks of it in John 19:31. From Wednesday at sunset to Thursday at sunset was this Nissan 15 special Sabbath (1st Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread-Lev 23-5-7). The Passover-Nissan 14 was the preparation day for this High Sabbath of Nissan 15, and AFTER this Sabbath, as Mark accounts indicates, the women go out and purchase the ingredients (obviously this would have been on Friday as shops would be closed after the High Sabbath on Thursday evening). So they spent the day on Friday buying and preparing the burial perfumes, and didn't have enough time to go back out to the tomb BEFORE the weekly Sabbath began on Friday @ sunset. They then wait until Sunday morning (while it is still dark) to go out to the tomb and find it empty.

    A Wednesday crucifixion and burial at sunset, through a Saturday resurrection at sunset, would give us three days and three nights and Yeshua's SIGN that He gave would be true.

    How does this scenario sound to everyone? KB
     
  2. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I have read this scenario before and it does sound like it could be a feasible possibility, but I haven't spent much time studying it out myself.
     
  3. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Not only that, but also get this:

    "The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it." Luke 23:55

    So, according to this verse it was possible to see the body of Jesus in the Tomb.
    But was not his body buried or covered with a stone? How could she sees His body?
     
  4. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    They saw His body before the stone was rolled over the tomb.
     
  5. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    You put forward some decent arguments. But the Myrrh-Bearing Women weren't the only ones to anoint Jesus' body; Joseph of Arimathea did most of that himself, since he already had all the necessary spices and perfumes handy. Whatever the Myhhr-Bearing Women brought to Jesus' tomb would have been an additional token of respect or some extra anointing, not nearly as large as the amount that was used during the initial preparation of Jesus' body.

    Certainly very plausible, but there's a way that the Friday-to-Sunday scenario can work just as well.
     
  6. Ken Brown

    Ken Brown Well-Known Member

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    Hi Shiranui117, thanks for responding. You are correct in that Joseph of Arimathea used about 75 pounds of myrrh and aloes to initially anoint Yeshua's dead body. The amount they used is a pretty good indicator to me that IF the women were going back out to also anoint Him, they wouldn't be showing up with just an ounce or two. But even if it was a smaller quantity, the process or amount of time for making the ointments would not have changed. I have furnished several links that give ample information that the process for making perfumes and ointments could have taken days, and even weeks in some of the processes. I'm convinced that they completed how they did it using the whole day of Friday (between the Sabbaths).

    I've read a lot of articles that try to explain the problem with these women and the purchasing and making the burial ointments, and they usually do not try to look at the fact that two separate Sabbaths were involved that week. All Sabbaths have a day of preparation before them, especially the Sabbath of Nissan 15, for on that day the lambs had to be prepared and slaughtered. Once someone sees that there were two Sabbaths and Friday separating them, then all the problems go away with the women, and with the three days and three nights.

    I would be interested to hear how you resolve the three days and three nights from Friday at sunset to Sunday at sunrise? KB

    Anceint Perfume Making
    About Ancient Perfume Making | eHow.com
     
  7. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Can you make this point from the 4 gospels?
     
  8. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    You make a good case about the perfume issue, and it's the best case I've seen yet against the Friday afternoon/evening-Sunday morning timeframe. I'll have to do some more research about this before I respond specifically to the perfume argument.

    The three days and three nights issue is resolvable if we keep in mind a literary convention about time that was widely used back in the day:
    Three Days and Three Nights

    Pretty much, it says that the Jews often spoke of any part of a day as the whole day; for example, if I was to tell you to meet me on the third day, or in three days from today, it would go as follows:

    Day 1: Today
    Day 2: Tomorrow
    Day 3: The day after tomorrow.

    So when I say "meet me on the third day" or "meet me in three days," you would meet me the day after tomorrow.

    IOW, even a few minutes of one day is treated as the entire 24-hour period, day and night. So if Jesus died on Friday, then He'd be considered dead for the whole of Friday, day and night, even though He died in the afternoon and wasn't dead for the whole day.

    He was dead for the entire 24-hour period on Saturday, so that's a full day no matter what way you wanna slice it.

    And He was still dead for a small amount of time on Sunday, so those few minutes would also be treated as the full 24-hour day, both day and night.
     
  9. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    John 19:
    38 After this, Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus; and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took the body of Jesus. 39 And Nicodemus, who at first came to Jesus by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds. 40 Then they took the body of Jesus, and bound it in strips of linen with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury. 41 Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid. 42 So there they laid Jesus, because of the Jews’ Preparation Day, for the tomb was nearby.

    Who's "they," you might ask?
    Mark 15
    42 Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 44 Pilate marveled that He was already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him if He had been dead for some time. 45 So when he found out from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph. 46 Then he bought fine linen, took Him down, and wrapped Him in the linen. And he laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock, and rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. 47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses observed where He was laid.

    Matthew 27
    57 Now when evening had come, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus. 58 This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be given to him. 59 When Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 and laid it in his new tomb which he had hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the door of the tomb, and departed. 61 And Mary Magdalene was there, and the other Mary, sitting opposite the tomb.

    So, IOW, the women were there, watching Jesus' body being prepared, and could have very well helped Joseph in anointing and wrapping Jesus' body. They were there as Jesus' body was laid in the tomb and as the stone was rolled over it.
     
  10. Ken Brown

    Ken Brown Well-Known Member

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    Hi Shiranui117, you make a good point if I were to say "meet me on the third day." But if I were to say, "meet me in three days and three nights," your point would not be valid.

    Consider this, Yeshua said, "Are there not twelve hours in the day," and "work while it is day, for night cometh when no man can work." Obviously, Yeshua understood that there were twelve hours in the day, and that did not include the night. The night portion would also have twelve hours. So when Yeshua said that He would be in the tomb for three days and three nights, I can only assume He knew what He was talking about, and a Wednesday crucifixion allows for His understanding of three days and three nights to work with precision. KB
     
  11. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    It sounds incompatible with the Bible. Your version has Jesus crucified before the Last Supper.

    Go back to Mark 14: the Sanhedrin decide that they won't arrest Jesus until after Passover, and the Last Supper is described as a Passover feast.

    BTW, from the looks of this thread, I think you might be interested in this: http://ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/stone.php
     
  12. Ken Brown

    Ken Brown Well-Known Member

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    Hi 9-10ths, ok, I'll bite, how does my version have Yeshua crucified before the Last Supper? KB
     
  13. Poisonshady313

    Poisonshady313 Well-Known Member

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    Not so. We learn from Moses being on the mountain for 40 days and 40 nights that days are days, nights are nights, and that any part of a day is NOT regarded as a whole day. Such a mistake as the one you're making is the reason why the sin of the golden calf happened. They started counting from the moment Moses started to ascend the mountain, instead of properly counting starting from the sundown after he started as night one. So when Moses didn't arrive half a day before he actually did, they despaired, thought he was dead, and the sin of the golden calf happened.

    There certainly is a difference between "third day" and "after three days and three nights". After three days and three nights is essentially another way of saying "fourth night" (because the night comes before the day.)

    If you take a meatloaf out of the oven after 45 minutes, it cannot be said that it was in the oven for an hour.
     
  14. Latuwr

    Latuwr Member

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    Hi 9-10ths_Penguin,
    Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
    I happen to agree with my Brother that Yahushua was crucified on a Wednesday, that HE was in the grave for three days and three nights as HE predicted, and that HE arose at the going down of the sun on Saturday which also happened to be the third day.
    I appreciate your calling our attention to Mr. Dan Barker's Easter Challenge. While I would like to be able to explain every contradiction that arises in the Gospels, there are many things that I cannot now answer, but later an answer will come to me. I do not stop believing in the resurrection of My Messiah Yahushua because I lack answers. I believe because I have been given answers. Here is one answer that I was blessed to receive and which I had previously posted on my own forum:

    Leading Away The Third Day!
    Hi Everyone,

    It is common knowledge among some of the fringe elements of Christianity (an example would be the former Worldwide Church of God and her many offshoots) that Messiah Yahushua suffered and died on Wednesday, that HE was buried as the sun was setting late Wednesday, and that HE arose from the dead exactly 72 hours later on Saturday as the sun was in the process of setting. There exists biblical evidence for this reckoning.

    However, there is one verse in the New Testament which seems to contradict this particular belief:

    Luke 24:21
    21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, today is the third day since these things were done.


    This verse without reservation seems to say that the first day of the week, Sunday, is the expected third day prophesied by Messiah Yahushua (Luke 18:33). Here is literal Greek to English rendition of the last half of the above verse:
    • Alla=Contrariwise, alla is a conjunction used to express keenness and emphasis
    • Ge=Indeed, "ge" is a particle which is used to impart added emphasis to the term to which it is attached. Together with "alla" they mean something like this "but even more"
    • Kai=Also or And or So, "Kai" is a conjuction
    • Sun=Together With, "sun" is a preposition denoting union
    • Pasin=All, "pasin" is the dative plural of "pas"
    • Toutois=These Things, "toutois" is the dative plural of "outos", a demonstrative pronoun
    • Tritan=Third, accusative singular of "tritos"
    • Tautan=The Same, "tautan" is the accusative singular of the demonstrative pronoun "outos"
    • Ameran=Day, accusative singular, "ameran" is the object of the verb
    • Agei=It Leads Away, "agei" is the third person singular present indicative of ago which means to lead away
    • Apo=Away From, a preposition
    • Ou=Where, "ou" is the genitive singular of "os", the relative pronoun
    • Tauta=These Things, "tauta" is accusative plural and the object of the verb
    • Egeneto=It happened
    This phrase put together could be translated thusly:

    "But even more so, together with all these things, it leads away the very third day away from where it happened these things."

    The two Disciples on the road to Emmaus were upset not because Sunday was the Third Day in their thinking. They were upset because the Third Day had come and gone and because Sunday was leading away what they knew to be the Third Day, that is, Saturday.

    Most of the translations of the New Testament assume that Sunday itself was the Third Day so they ignore the verb, "ago", which means to lead away, and they mistakenly translate that verb as if Sunday were the Third Day. If Sunday was the Third Day, then why would the Disciples be upset since that day had not ended, and Sunday cannot in the least lead itself away? The Third Day could only be led away by the day which follows that particular Day.

    Messiah arose from the dead on the Sabbath, and Sunday, the first day of the week, leads away that Day.

    Sincerely, Spying

    I hope this gives you and others some indication that answers from My Messiah Yahushua are given to those who seek them from HIM. Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
    Sincerely, Latuwr
     
  15. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    There's a problem with translating LITERALLY from one language to another, first off. There's a reason that no one translates Luke 24:21 the way your friend does; it makes zero sense. Literal, word-for-word translations can in fact fail to convey the correct meaning.

    There IS, however, plenty of Scripture to support the fact that Jesus rose from the dead on the third day, and not after 72 hours. I've already mentioned inclusive reckoning, which the Jews used back then, and still do today.

    Matthew 16:21 “From that time forth began Jesus to show unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again THE THIRD DAY.”
    Matthew 17:23 “And they shall kill him, and THE THIRD DAY he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.”
    Matthew 20:19 “And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and THE THIRD DAY he shall rise again.”
    Matthew 27:64 “Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until THE THIRD DAY, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.”
    Mark 9:31 “For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise THE THIRD DAY.”
    Mark 10:34 “And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and THE THIRD DAY he shall rise again.”
    Luke 9:22 “Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised THE THIRD DAY.”
    Luke 13:32 “And he said unto them, Go you, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and THE THIRD DAY I shall be perfected.”
    Luke 18:33 “And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and THE THIRD DAY he shall rise again.”
    Luke 24:7 “Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and THE THIRD DAY rise again.”
    Luke 24:21 “But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is THE THIRD DAY since these things were done.”
    Luke 24:46 “And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead THE THIRD DAY:”
    John 2:1 “And THE THIRD DAY there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:”
    Acts 10:40 “Him God raised up THE THIRD DAY, and showed him openly;”
    1 Corinthians 15:4 “And that he was buried, and that he rose again THE THIRD DAY according to the scriptures:”
     
  16. Latuwr

    Latuwr Member

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    Hi Shiranui117,
    Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
    I agree that My Messiah arose from the dead on the third day, but My Messiah also said this about HIS resurrection:
    Mark 8:31
    31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
    The Greek preposition translated "after" in the above verse is "meta".
    Here is how Strong's defines meta:
    G3326
    μετά
    meta
    met-ah'
    A primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly denoting accompaniment; “amid” (local or causal); modified variously according to the case (genitive case association, or accusative case succession) with which it is joined;

    In Mark 8:31, we can see that "three days", being the object of meta, is found to be in the accusative case and not in the genitive case. The accusative case implies "succession" as stated in the definition above, and therefore the translators translated "meta" as "after".
    Even so, the use of "meta" prevents anyone from arguing that Messiah would arise from the dead after three days and three nights, and, therefore, HIS resurrection must actually be on the fourth night or day as Poisonshady313 reasons above. "Meta" properly denotes accompaniment, and, therefore, the use of "meta" in Mark 8:31 makes the resurrection day inclusive of the third day.
    You have quoted for us scriptures where Messiah is said to arise from the dead on the third day. In your thinking Sunday is the third day. What period of time is indicated when someone states that they would meet with us after three days but still on the third day? Would we look for the meeting to take place on the day which follows the third day? No, we would look for the meeting to take place at the end of the third day but still on the third day. Likewise, My Messiah Yahushua, arose from the dead at the end of three days but prior to the beginning of the fourth day!
    Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
    Sincerely, Latuwr
     
  17. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity What Does the Fox Say?
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    The three days are used, because three days are representative of something. Four would not be acceptable. The resurrection of Jesus on the third day is seen as proof that he was a righteous person falsely accused.

    Three days was significant. A sacrifice had to be destroyed within three days or it was considered ruined and ineffective. (Lev 7:18) This followed the pattern of the treatment of Manna which was generally to be gathered and eaten daily, except on the day before the Sabbath. (Exod 16:20) In preparation for Sabbaths twice as much could be gathered but no more. Jesus death is seen as a sacrifice which his followers must eat. Just as Israel had to learn that "Man does not live by bread alone..." so did Jesus followers. His resurrection on the third day is, for one thing, a reminder of this.

    I Samuel 2:13 three pronged forks are mentioned. A three pronged fork was thrust in and whatever came out of the boiling cooked meat pot belonged to the priest to eat. Naturally it was going to be meat, not fat which stuck to the fork. If nothing stuck to the fork, then the priest would get nothing. This boiling was purification and symbolized all kinds of purification, like judgment. It was cousin to the purification of metals in which slag was pulled from the top of molten metal until the metal became pure. How many times was this process repeated? About three times. 'The Furnace' is the symbol of the purification processes which Israel had to pass through in Egypt and in its captivity to Babylon.

    Jesus death was, likewise, a purification in which he was 'Made perfect' (Hebrews 5:9). His body was destroyed and condemned along with the sin in it, but his spirit was approved of.(Romans 8:3) Three days were the appropriate symbol for his purification. There are also other ways that three days can be shown to be the only acceptable number of days for Jesus purification.
     
  18. Ken Brown

    Ken Brown Well-Known Member

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    Hi Brickjectivity, some interesting points you make, and I wouldn't have any reason to object to what you have said. I would like to know if you feel the crucifixion took place on Friday. Did the Messiah go into the tomb on Friday at sunset? And how do you feel about Yeshua asking, "Are there not 12 hours in the day?" 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS? KB
     
  19. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity What Does the Fox Say?
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    I'm not sure when and if the various events actually happened.
    I feel it was part of a simile about an age of darkness that had arrived, versus the previous age of light. He used weird language, so that is the tip-off. Referring to John 9:4, Jesus would sometimes talk about a time of Night that was on its way. Going forward to the John 11 you asked about: in John 11:6 Jesus heard Lazarus was sick but postponed his visit by 2 days so that Lazarus was in the tomb for a total of 4 days before his was resurrected. This led me to believe that Jesus was commenting that this epoch of time had a time of light and a time of dark just as each day had the same thing -- or he meant something like that.

    Chapter 11 is long and has a lot going on. Overall I think that his comment was about the darkness of the age rather than an actual definition of what a day was in length.
     
  20. Ken Brown

    Ken Brown Well-Known Member

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    Hi Brickjectivity, I'm sorry to hear that you feel the events may not have happened. And concerning the peace offering, why couldn't any of it be eaten ON the third day, that it had to be eaten on the first two days? The third day did not come into play as you assumed with the peace offering.

    If Yeshua wanted to express the darkness of the age, why mention there are 12 hours in the day? When He specifically mentioned that He would be in the tomb for three days and three nights, He meant three 12 hour days, and three 12 hour nights. He was in the tomb for exactly 72 hours, and this can be proven convincingly by closely looking at the Scriptures. KB
     
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