Thousands march in pro-EU protest [LONDON]

[Ultimatum]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...aturday-2-july-anti-result-live-a7111581.html

Look at all these enlightened, truth-knowing people.

[/quote]The event’s organiser, King’s College graduate Kieran MacDermott, wrote: “We can prevent Brexit by refusing to accept the referendum as the final say and take our finger off the self-destruct button.[/quote]

Yet offers no qualification of what the self-destruct button actually does.

“It is the responsibility of parliament to consider our democracy more carefully and call for a vote before they all accept the UK's decline.

Yes, consider our democracy more carefully... by asking for less democracy! The genius of these angry people is enlightening.

“Let's not leave the next generation adrift.

Indeed, let us not pass a Bill, lest we power up the starboard motor that lies on the White Cliffs of Dover and pushes us into the cold clutches of the Atlantic.

 

[Aquitaine]

I have got to admit that some of my fellow Remainers are behaving like children now that we lost.
You either accept democracy or reject it, but you can't have it both ways.

 

[Ultimatum]

I have got to admit that some of my fellow Remainers are behaving like children now that we lost.
You either accept democracy or reject it, but you can't have it both ways.

It's called being in denial. They cannot handle the fact that Theresa May will pass a Referendum Bill through which Art. 50 will be activated.

Salt + enlightenment = disappointment.

 

[YmirGF]

I have got to admit that some of my fellow Remainers are behaving like children now that we lost.
You either accept democracy or reject it, but you can't have it both ways.

My thoughts are similar. Part of being in a democratic republic is sucking it up when you don't get the outcome you had hoped for.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

It's called being in denial. They cannot handle the fact that Theresa May will pass a Referendum Bill through which Art. 50 will be activated.

Salt + enlightenment = disappointment.

Hey now, don't assume Theresa May will be PM. Anything can happen in a Tory leadership election... That's what I keep telling myself anyway. #voteAndrea

(I really don't know how I can trust a Remainer like Theresa taking us out)

 

[Mindmaster]

My thoughts are similar. Part of being in a democratic republic is sucking it up when you don't get the outcome you had hoped for.

I guess the question is, do they truly want their government to ignore the vote? This is a slippery slope, actions like this set precedence and even the elected politicians know that. We also don't know if that mob of people actually represent remainers or a bunch of migrants that are going to be made to **** off once Article 50 kicks in. Also, does anyone know how many of them are paid? Remainers are younger people as well, and to be frank life experience shapes your vote. The old timers know the scams, and have a better bead on where things go.

Some of the anti-Trump protesters are getting like $3k a gig, and more if they start trouble. Just saying, you are dealing with the globalists and rarely do they play fair.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I guess the question is, do they truly want their government to ignore the vote? This is a slippery slope, actions like this set precedence and even the elected politicians know that.

The current government holds a majority of Commons seats on 37% of the vote, previous administrations have maintained majority control with a minority of the vote. The precedent was set long ago. They'll ignore or accept it as they like - especially since the vote isn't legally binding.

Yet offers no qualification of what the self-destruct button actually does.

I think that was made obvious to everyone the day the Leave vote was announced when the £ crashed to a 30 year low against the US dollar and billions were wiped off the stock markets in one afternoon.

Yes, consider our democracy more carefully... by asking for less democracy! The genius of these angry people is enlightening.

They're asking for another ballot because the first one was only a slim win. It wasn't won decisively. Leavers have been saying since the result was announced that they'd like to change their vote if they could - and it's worth pointing out that if we get into the EFTA we'll still need to accept that bugbear of freedom of movement (can you explain how we'll manage to get in without accepting that yet?). And let's continue to ignore that Farage - one of the leading voices on the Leave side - was plenty happy to do exactly what these people are doing now if Remain had won by a similar margin.

These people are not required to be happy with the result, nor are they required to sit down, shut up and meekly watch as Tory party infighting threatens their livelihoods. EU supporters haven't suddenly become Leave as you so arrogantly claimed in another thread. That's not how democracy works. A referendum result doesn't subsume the political positions of those who opposed it.

Bracing for hypocritical accusations of ignorance in 3, 2, 1...

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

The current government holds a majority of Commons seats on 37% of the vote, previous administrations have maintained majority control with a minority of the vote. The precedent was set long ago. They'll ignore or accept it as they like - especially since the vote isn't legally binding.




I think that was made obvious to everyone the day the Leave vote was announced when the £ crashed to a 30 year low against the US dollar and billions were wiped off the stock markets in one afternoon.




They're asking for another ballot because the first one was only a slim win. It wasn't won decisively. Leavers have been saying since the result was announced that they'd like to change their vote if they could - and it's worth pointing out that if we get into the EFTA we'll still need to accept that bugbear of freedom of movement (can you explain how we'll manage to get in without accepting that yet?). And let's continue to ignore that Farage - one of the leading voices on the Leave side - was plenty happy to do exactly what these people are doing now if Remain had won by a similar margin.

These people are not required to be happy with the result, nor are they required to sit down, shut up and meekly watch as Tory party infighting threatens their livelihoods. EU supporters haven't suddenly become Leave as you so arrogantly claimed in another thread. That's not how democracy works. A referendum result doesn't subsume the political positions of those who opposed it.

Bracing for hypocritical accusations of ignorance in 3, 2, 1...

Of course bad losers aren't 'required' to accept their defeat, but that doesn't make them any less bad losers.

And the number of Leavers who regret their decision seems small according to the polls, taken together with the number of Remainers who regret their decision, the referendum result would remain the same.

 

[Augustus]

I have got to admit that some of my fellow Remainers are behaving like children now that we lost.
You either accept democracy or reject it, but you can't have it both ways.

Is it really particularly democratic though?

In many countries a major 'constitutional' change would require a qualified majority. Opinion changes and fluctuates, and results within a few % could easily be different a week, month or year in the future (or past).

In Scotland you see calls for a 2nd referendum. Had remain won the closeness of the vote would have led to calls for another referendum in a few years.

The thing is, leave/independence are irreversible, but they don't accept that if they lose it fixes the decision for ever.

Would it be democratic if the SNP decided to hold a referendum every week until they got 50%+1?

It's like in America, Obama can't just change the constitution permanently because he won a one off election. Britain has no constitution though so it is a free for all.

What is "democratic" isn't so straightforward.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Is it really particularly democratic though?

In many countries a major 'constitutional' change would require a qualified majority. Opinion changes and fluctuates, and results within a few % could easily be different a week, month or year in the future (or past).

In Scotland you see calls for a 2nd referendum. Had remain won the closeness of the vote would have led to calls for another referendum in a few years.

The thing is, leave/independence are irreversible, but they don't accept that if they lose it fixes the decision for ever.

Would it be democratic if the SNP decided to hold a referendum every week until they got 50%+1?

It's like in America, Obama can't just change the constitution permanently because he won a one off election. Britain has no constitution though so it is a free for all.

What is "democratic" isn't so straightforward.

Would you have written this post if the result had been a Remain vote?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Pah, just wait till the Scots invade lower England to rescue us from the evil Tory overlords!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

My thoughts are similar. Part of being in a democratic republic is sucking it up when you don't get the outcome you had hoped for.

The UK isn't a republic.

 

[Augustus]

Would you have written this post if the result had been a Remain vote?

No because the status quo doesn't ever require a qualified majority so it is not applicable. However on Scottish independence which I am strongly in favour of I also found 50%+1 to be a bit unfair (although unfair in favour of what I wanted). When one side wins permanently 50%+1 is not very democratic and is why many countries take steps to prevent such a thing happening.

If this referendum had been held a year ago, remain would probably have won. Do you think such important things should be decided on luck of the draw re: timing?

Do you consider any country that requires a qualified majority for major constitutional decisions (most Western nations) to be undemocratic?

My point isn't really about remain/leave, but about how a simple plebiscite is not necessarily the be all and end all of 'democracy'.

 

[YmirGF]

The UK isn't a republic.

That you for that terribly enlightening thought, Frankie. Hope you are well.

 

[YmirGF]

No because the status quo doesn't ever require a qualified majority so it is not applicable. However on Scottish independence which I am strongly in favour of I also found 50%+1 to be a bit unfair (although unfair in favour of what I wanted). When one side wins permanently 50%+1 is not very democratic and is why many countries take steps to prevent such a thing happening.

If this referendum had been held a year ago, remain would probably have won. Do you think such important things should be decided on luck of the draw re: timing?

Do you consider any country that requires a qualified majority for major constitutional decisions (most Western nations) to be undemocratic?

My point isn't really about remain/leave, but about how a simple plebiscite is not necessarily the be all and end all of 'democracy'.

What is somewhat amusing is that the Brexit vote is non-binding.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What is somewhat amusing is that the Brexit vote is non-binding.

That's right, the government has to initiate Article 50 before anything happens. They don't seem to be in a rush about it.

 

[YmirGF]

That's right, the government has to initiate Article 50 before anything happens. They don't seem to be in a rush about it.

As near as I can figure is that no one had contingency plans for the outcome that occurred. The Brexit folks didn't expect to win and the Government didn't expect to lose.

 

[Mindmaster]

I trade currency all of the time, and you have to understand there is a vast difference between how investors feel in these situations (fear.. ) and the reality. The price drop was mostly based on the fear/speculation angle causing a massive sell off than any drastic change in the state of affairs. The value of currency is sort of an imaginary number in that it isn't always scaling with indicators of real value -- exports, income levels, GDP, etc. Much of that hasn't changed for the UK, and the currency will start tracking the real numbers in a couple of weeks. I mean, until article 50, the UK is still part of the EU. What's really different? It's all bearish anxiety rather than actual trouble. Even then, there isn't any rush to invoking the separation. It looks like the UK government is doing the right thing and getting their ducks in a row, which will again inspire investor confidence. Most of the panic on the currency markets was people who were holding pounds sterling swapping to US dollars. Or, they sell pounds, buy USD and invest in gold. (which seems to be what many are doing based on the gold prices). When the panic is over in a week or so, it'll bounce up.

 

[Augustus]

What is somewhat amusing is that the Brexit vote is non-binding.

That just adds to the fun

Is it undemocratic to choose to follow a non binding vote arranged by a political party who got 1/3 of the popular vote?

The whole thing has been remarkably amateur.

Make Britain great again by highlighting how clueless and bumbling the whole political establishment is.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You either accept democracy or reject it, but you can't have it both ways.

The thing about democracy is is that it is working only when people are active. It's the system people want, and such things should be expected if they want their system to be healthy and functioning properly.