• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Thought Crimes

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
There's a lot of thoughts a person has that don't come from the heart. I'm sure everyone has come across bad thoughts or thought the worst of something that has nothing to do with their intentions, and never comes across in their actions.

A thought crime could establish motive for an actual crime committed. But to punish someone for having a bad thought is ludicrous.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I meant should there be punishment by God/Gods/Spirits/Angels/Watchers (insert your belief on who controls karma, etc) for thought crimes.
No, of course not.

If no harm has been attempted or achieved in reality, how can there be fault?

Like the Thought Police in Orwell's 1984 it would be oppression solely for the sake of oppression. No human should have to tolerate that.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, of course not.

If no harm has been attempted or achieved in reality, how can there be fault?

What if thought crimes do harm society at large and not only own society, but other societies?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What if thought crimes do harm society at large and not only own society, but other societies?
A thought crime takes place solely within a brain. It's a thought crime because alteration of reality is not involved. If you disagree, please give me an example of what you mean.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A thought crime takes place solely within a brain. It's a thought crime because alteration of reality is not involved. If you disagree, please give me an example of what you mean.

Our beliefs effect our attitude. Our attitude effect what actions or non-actions we do. To me, silence towards oppressors and their oppression, is loudly saying "go ahead and oppress, we don't care". This stems from belief of non-responsibility and it's due to believing we should live for ourselves, and not care for others.

Apathy towards injustice and oppression, is centralized on what principles you believe about life.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Some religions teach thought crimes are a thing. Not sure of any religions who don't, but that's beside the point.

Since all of Quran can be in a way exposing "thought crimes", I thought I would layer this thread.

(1) I will speak from some of my understand on the perspective why.
(2) I will speak from a naturalistic perspective (no God, no soul, etc) why this is true too.
(3) I will show reasoning of Quran and hadiths.

But before I do, I want to see what people say about this.

Is there such a thing as a thought crime?
Should we punished for some of them?

If all I do is think about committing a crime then the only thing anyone should be able to do is think about punishing me.
 

Viker

Häxan
What if thought crimes do harm society at large and not only own society, but other societies?
Thoughts are only thoughts. They aren't the action of any crime. Motive only establishes a connection between offender and offense.

A world where "thought crimes" were punished would make any story of hell look paradisiacal, and solve nothing. Who and how many would it take to enforce? Impossible.

I stick to there's no such thing as thought crime. Only in the dystopian sci-fi novels/movies.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Our beliefs effect our attitude. Our attitude effect what actions or non-actions we do. To me, silence towards oppressors and their oppression, is loudly saying "go ahead and oppress, we don't care". This stems from belief of non-responsibility and it's due to believing we should live for ourselves, and not care for others.

Apathy towards injustice and oppression, is centralized on what principles you believe about life.
Isn't apathy the absence of thought-crime ─ along with everything else?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thoughts are only thoughts. They aren't the action of any crime. Motive only establishes a connection between offender and offense.

A world where "thought crimes" were punished would make any story of hell look paradisiacal, and solve nothing. Who and how many would it take to enforce? Impossible.

I stick to there's no such thing as thought crime. Only in the dystopian sci-fi novels/movies.

Thoughts give power to discourses. Discourses rule how we think and produce actions.

If we follow caprice, we may support people out of racism or support evil policies.

Those evil people we support when we let ignorance take over us, do real actions.

So aside from apathy which I discussed, another thought crime is supporting falsehood that helps evil people rule.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So far, I'm not discussing it from the perspective, that desiring the lower pleasures over God's light and proximity, is a huge evil in itself even there was no other consequence to it but distance from God.

That is a huge thought crime. So far, I'm discussing thought crime not talking the metaphysical aspects of goodness and it's relationship with faith.

So far I shown it even in a naturalistic denying God world imagined. And I think I've made a case they are a thing.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Apathy is a huge thought crime, and is responsible for much suffering in the world.
I don't think I've ever met anyone who wasn't apathetic about something. It's simply impossible to be an activist in respect of every human ill. And what is one person's ill may be someone else's goal ─ for example, support al Qaeda or support the destruction of al Qaeda? Which is the thought crime?

My track record suggests I'm an act-locally human, however much or little I might think globally.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't think I've ever met anyone who wasn't apathetic about something. It's simply impossible to be an activist in respect of every human ill. And what is one person's ill may be someone else's goal ─ for example, support al Qaeda or support the destruction of al Qaeda? Which is the thought crime?

My track record suggests I'm an act-locally human, however much or little I might think globally.

There is a middle-ground. But chasing desires and not doing anything for justice and not gaining knowledge of the truth regarding justice and the path, to me, is an unforgivable thought crime.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is a middle-ground. But chasing desires and not doing anything for justice and not gaining knowledge of the truth regarding justice and the path, to me, is an unforgivable thought crime.
I dare say there'd be a lot we could agree on in there.

It's just that I wouldn't label it "thought-crime".
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Is there such a thing as a thought crime?
Should we punished for some of them?

In the Old Testament such things as coveting our neighbours wife or property are thought crimes. They are desire crimes and are to be avoided by those who are Jews and others who believe in that God. Our thoughts and desires lead to actions to fulfil them and that makes for a society full of the actions of people who have those thoughts/desires. Stealing, rape, adultery etc.
Coveting is something beyond just thinking that our neighbours wife is good looking or that our neighbours goods are things that we would like to have.
In the New Testament Jesus takes the concept even further.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Im interested in understanding how this could happen. Could you give an example?

Sure, the belief it's okay to have slaves, results in slaves, and without that belief propagated, it would be difficult to acquire slaves. To me, it's not simply the owners of slaves responsible, but people believing it's alright, that is to blame.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jesus statements on lust as already having committed adultery.

The Quran doesn't say this explicitly, but there is a notion of inward FASHA. The relationship between inward and outward, is that inward lust leads to the outward, and so if one doesn't cut it off, it will lead to the outward act eventually.

From Misbahal Shariah:

There is nothing more gainful than lowering one's gaze, for the sight is not lowered from things, which Allah has forbidden unless the witnessing of majesty and glory has already come to the heart.

The Commander of the Faithful was asked what could help in lowering one's gaze. He said, 'Submission to the power of Him Who is aware of your secret. The eye is the spy of the hearts and the messenger of the intellect; therefore lower your gaze from whatever is not appropriate to your faith, from whatever your heart dislikes and from whatever your intellect finds repugnant.'

The Holy Prophet said, 'Lower your eyes and you will see wonders.'

Allah said,


قُل لِّلْمُؤْمِنِينَ يَغُضُّوا مِنْ أَبْصَارِهِمْ وَيَحْفَظُوا فُرُوجَهُمْ ذَلِكَ أَزْكَى لَهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ خَبِيرٌ بِمَا يَصْنَعُونَ

Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts. (24:30)

‘Isa (‘a) said to the disciples, 'Beware of looking at forbidden things, for that is the seed of desire and leads to deviant behaviour.'

Yahya (‘a) said, 'I would prefer death to a glance which is unnecessary.'

'Abdallah ibn Mas'ud said to a man who had visited a woman while she was ill, 'It would have been better for you to lose your eyes than to have visited your sick person.'

Whenever the eye looks at something forbidden, a knot of desire is tied in the person's heart, and that knot will only be untied by one of two conditions: either by weeping out of grief and regret in true repentance, or by taking possession of what one desired and looked at. And if a person takes possession unjustly, without repentance, then that will take him to the Fire.

As for the one who repents of it with grief and regret, his abode is the Garden and his destiny is Allah's favour.

-----------


So what Nabi Jesus (a) and Imam Jaffar (a) both say about lust, show, also, why thought crimes are crimes. They eventually lead to outward acts. So you have to cut it off and repent before that happens.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In the Old Testament such things as coveting our neighbours wife or property are thought crimes. They are desire crimes and are to be avoided by those who are Jews and others who believe in that God. Our thoughts and desires lead to actions to fulfil them and that makes for a society full of the actions of people who have those thoughts/desires. Stealing, rape, adultery etc.
Coveting is something beyond just thinking that our neighbours wife is good looking or that our neighbours goods are things that we would like to have.
In the New Testament Jesus takes the concept even further.

I want to take it further. When people act for other then God, they aren't genuine and seek to please people which results in their conception of themselves to be false and others, and their morals get warped. Imam Jaffar (a) explaining showing off says:

Do not show off your actions to someone who neither gives life nor causes death, and who cannot take away from you your burdens. Showing off is a tree whose only fruit is hidden association of other gods with Allah, and its root is hypocrisy. The vain one will be told on the Day of Judgement; 'Take what you consider to be the reward of your actions from those you took as your partners with Me. Look to those whom you worshipped and called on, from whom you entertained hopes and whom you feared. And know that you cannot conceal anything inside of you from Allah: you will be deceived by yourself.'

Allah said,


يُخَادِعُونَ اللّهَ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَمَا يَخْدَعُونَ إِلاَّ أَنفُسَهُم وَمَا يَشْعُرُونَ

They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive. (2:9)

Showing off most frequently occurs in the way people glance at others, speak, eat, drink, arrive somewhere, sit with others, dress, laugh, and in the way they perform prayers, pilgrimage, jihad, recitation of the Qur'an, and all outward acts of devotion.

However, he who is sincere towards Allah, who fears Him in his heart, and who sees himself as lacking even after he has exerted himself with every effort, will find that Allah is contented with him as a result, and he will be among those whom one expects to be free from showing off and hypocrisy, provided he continues to be in that state.



My comment: I believe intention for other then God results in deviant acts that harm society and oneself.
 
Top