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Thinking about False Gods

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
This thread is a discussion about nonexistent gods. It is not an attack on belief in any specific god or even necessarily an attack on false belief. Rather, I am curious about the widespread phenomenon of false religious belief, specifically belief in false deities.

One thing that can be said for certain about false gods is that they exist--in human imagination, not reality. Humans have invented thousands of them throughout history. But we all have false beliefs about real people, and sometimes our beliefs about real people are so off the mark that those people can be said not to exist. False gods, it seems, are akin to imaginary playmates in children--made up beings that play a central role in the life of the child, if only for a brief amount of time. None of us are strangers to false beliefs. We are immersed in them, and we go through life constantly revising our opinions of reality, scarcely aware of the amount of misinformation that guides us. But false gods are often relatively unchanging fixtures in the lives of believers. They represent imaginary constructs that the believer comes to see as the bedrock of his or her existence.

So false gods are real to the people who believe in them. Most of us reject the existence of the vast majority of false gods, but it is clear that much of the human race is devoted to them. The most popular complex of religious belief--Christianity--only covers about a third of the human race. Islam is second in popularity, but it appears to be the most rapidly growing religion. Hinduism, perhaps the oldest of the religious traditions, is in third place, with roughly a billion adherents. It follows that the majority of the human race has seriously false beliefs about God or gods.

1) Given that most people in the world believe in false gods, would you regard the human race as delusional? Is this aspect of our behavior a kind of mental illness? Is belief in false gods healthy?

2) Are there any benefits to belief in false gods? Should people stop believing in them? If you had the power to stop people from believing in false gods, would you exercise it?

3) How does one distinguish a false (nonexistent) god from one that really exists?
 
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doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
1) Given that most people in the world believe in false gods, would you regard the human race as delusional? Is this aspect of our behavior a kind of mental illness? Is belief in false gods healthy?
That's not a given. Nobody believes their own "God" is "false" (nor could they), though they may believe others believe in "false gods" and regard these other gods as "false."

3) How does one distinguish a false (nonexistent) god from one that really exists?
By whether it really exists.
 

Gentoo

The Feisty Penguin
That's what I was thinking; either way, it doesn't matter if they're "false" or not, something doesn't have to in a "real way" for people to believe in it..
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
doppelgänger;1383581 said:
That's not a given. Nobody believes their own "God" is "false" (nor could they), though they may believe others believe in "false gods" and regard these other gods as "false."

What isn't a given? It is self-evidently true that believers in gods do not believe that their own god is false. So what are you denying is a given? That the majority of gods believed in by humans throughout history are false?

By whether it really exists.

OK. How could one tell that a god really exists? I think that you understand the intent of the question.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
This thread is a discussion about nonexistent gods. It is not an attack on belief in any specific god or even necessarily an attack on false belief. Rather, I am curious about the widespread phenomenon of false religious belief, specifically belief in false deities.
I don't believe any Gods are false in the sense you are using, and I wonder how you determine that they are. After all, every theology I'm aware of is unfalsifiable. :)
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
That's what I was thinking; either way, it doesn't matter if they're "false" or not, something doesn't have to in a "real way" for people to believe in it..

Yes, but I made a point of this in the OP. People have all sorts of false beliefs, although we discard or modify false beliefs all the time without giving it much thought. Beliefs about gods change rarely and slowly. Does it really matter that most people hold this kind of false belief throughout life? I suppose that one could ask whether it really matters whether one believe in a true god, but that's a question worthy of a separate thread. This thread is just about belief in gods that don't exist.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
I don't believe any Gods are false in the sense you are using, and I wonder how you determine that they are. After all, every theology I'm aware of is unfalsifiable. :)

Storm, are you saying that there can be no criteria for distinguishing true gods from false gods? That there is no way to tell the difference?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Storm, are you saying that there can be no criteria for distinguishing true gods from false gods?
As I said, I don't believe any Gods are false in the sense of nonexistent.

That there is no way to tell the difference?
Yes and no. However, I'm asking for your perspective/ methodology. :)
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
What isn't a given?

1) Given that most people in the world believe in false gods, would you regard the human race as delusional? Is this aspect of our behavior a kind of mental illness? Is belief in false gods healthy?


That the majority of gods believed in by humans throughout history are false?
I deny that it is a given that they are exclusively "false." Is the notion that the Earth is generally spherical in shape rather than a flat plain or disk a "false" belief because there are flat-earthers?
 

Gentoo

The Feisty Penguin
Yes, but I made a point of this in the OP. People have all sorts of false beliefs, although we discard or modify false beliefs all the time without giving it much thought. Beliefs about gods change rarely and slowly. Does it really matter that most people hold this kind of false belief throughout life? I suppose that one could ask whether it really matters whether one believe in a true god, but that's a question worthy of a separate thread. This thread is just about belief in gods that don't exist.

That still doesn't address my first question as to how you're differentiating between a real god and a false god... What's true for you may be completely false to me or vice versa..
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
"How much wiggle is *a* wiggle? Well, you have to draw the line somewhere. So people come to some sorts of agreements about, uhh, how much of a wiggle... is a wiggle. That is to say, a thing. One wiggle. One can always reduce any one wiggle into sub-wiggles. Or see it as a subordinate wiggle in a bigger wiggle. But there's no real fixed rule about it..."

-Starf***er, "Florida"

http://www.frankichan.com/websongs/01 Florida.mp3
 
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Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
As I said, I don't believe any Gods are false in the sense of nonexistent.

First of all, let's agree to a clear definition of a "god". A god is an intelligent agency that has absolute control over some aspect of material reality. For example, Vulcan was the god of fire in the Roman pantheon. Agni is his counterpart in the (related) Hindu pantheon. Do you believe that there is a god of fire? I would say that there is no intelligent being that has absolute control over fire.

Yes and no. However, I'm asking for your perspective/ methodology. :)

Well, people pray to gods. If prayers work, then that is evidence that the god they pray to exists. I'm not saying that it is absolute proof in any sense, but I'm not looking for absolute proof in the existence of gods. My own perspective/methodology is a bit more pragmatic. Gods are theories about the way reality works. We can test such theories by establishing cause and effect relationships.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
First of all, let's agree to a clear definition of a "god". A god is an intelligent agency that has absolute control over some aspect of material reality.
Hoo boy, this'll take a while. In the interest of staying on topic, I'll try to work with this one. Define "absoulte control." Is it in/voluntary? Can it be turned off?

For example, Vulcan was the god of fire in the Roman pantheon. Agni is his counterpart in the (related) Hindu pantheon. Do you believe that there is a god of fire? I would say that there is no intelligent being that has absolute control over fire.
I believe there are beings with an affinity for fire, but I don't think that's your point.

I believe that virtually all concepts of God are one of two things: either a flawed understanding of the "true" God (and all such understandings are flawed, mine included), or a probably-flawed understanding of a sidhe (the Others - angels, demons, and many other entities).

Well, people pray to gods. If prayers work, then that is evidence that the god they pray to exists. I'm not saying that it is absolute proof in any sense, but I'm not looking for absolute proof in the existence of gods. My own perspective/methodology is a bit more pragmatic. Gods are theories about the way reality works. We can test such theories by establishing cause and effect relationships.
But I'm asking how you determine that such a being does NOT exist. If it's just "it doesn't answer prayers" there are a couple of problems with that. For starters, no theology I'm aware of says we're guaranteed to get everything we ask for. Also, you ahve to dismiss out of hand the countless reports of the faithful saying that their prayers WERE answered, and that's just bias.
 
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Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
doppelgänger;1383631 said:
I deny that it is a given that they are exclusively "false." Is the notion that the Earth is generally spherical in shape rather than a flat plain or disk a "false" belief because there are flat-earthers?

Doppelganger, I'm having what seems to be a chronic problem of communicating clearly with you. Sorry if I seem a bit dense. I just don't understand how you were able to turn anything I said into a claim that the Earth is flat. I am not making any claims here about a real god or gods. Nor do I think that you are claiming the Earth is flat because there are flat-earthers, although I could imagine trying to pin something like that on you, given your seeming denial that there are false gods. I notice that you italicized exclusively. Is it your position that we cannot rule out the existence of Agni, because there is some god that controls fire--some element of truth to the belief--even if the specific Hindu god doesn't exist in exactly the sense that Hindus claim? Is that what you are trying to say? So are you then concluding that there is no such thing as a false god?

doppelgänger;1383632 said:
By whether an item related to other items in a system of information bears the designation "God."

That is too broad a criterion to be meaningful to me. Would you accept my definition of a god as an intelligent agency that has absolute control over some aspect of reality? We could use the Aztec feathered serpent god Quetzalcoatl as an example of what I consider a "false god". (I hope I'm not offending anyone, but I think that that one has lost most of his worshippers.)
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
But false and "real" gods both yield the exact same fruits = absolutely nothing. It's quite telling that the two are indistinguishable.
Now, that's not quite true, is it? For starters, there are the previously-mentioned reports of answered prayers. :p
 
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