thermodynamics and the Tao

[angrymoose]

Hi Ben

Not sure how to answer without closing the door that considering thermodynamics and the second law opens!!! One should remember that from Taoist traditions that much knowledge and technique has been derived. At the very minimum, consider T'ai Ch'i.

There was a Taoist style short story I read as a kid. It involved this warrior in a future hindu caste society with a zen like philolsophy enter the Bramin caste. He was taught the power of the open question and how an answer closes the mind. I think sometimes the verses you've presented are misused to close rather than open minds. The cultivating of the eternal Tao, is really an attitude more than anything else, ...


The second law of thermodynamics is an aspect of the Tao, in the same way a photograph or one of your posts describes an aspect of you. Its an important aspect and it drives an undestanding of many things and it likely comes with qualifications. I could have also written a thread on the Taoistic aspects of the book "Negotiating a Yes" or how a smart but dedicated politician in Washington succeeds by "playing ball" and using an understanding of the motivations of other politicians in order to accomplish his goals. All those descriptions could come with an infinite number of qualifications and there is a difference between reading about being an effective politician and being one.

 

[angrymoose]

Well since entropy is a complex topic, I think it can be bent a little and used to "prove" just about anything.

Behe's information argument amounts to being an argument of probability. The thing with probability is in order to use it properly you need to know:
-- what outcomes are possible under the conditions you are considering.
-- what outcomes are successes and which ones are "failures" with respect to what you are considering
-- how many trials occurred.

One has to also appreciate rare events happen. While the probability of an individual rare event happening is low, the probality of a non-specific rare event happening is 100%. Our birth is a rare event. Most sperm fail and yet one succeeds,

I would say that all physical laws are "designers" and there needs to be no humanlike mind behind them.

I think so, Certainly, the process of evolution learns.

I don't say conclusively the information argument against evolution is wrong but rather say, its a numbers game and we don't have all the data.

We have a lot of evidence that evolution happened.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Hi angrymoose,

Yes, there is a time which is appropriate for the mind to experience, experiment, and discover the wonders and sorrows in the world of ten thousand things which are the expression of Tao. And likewise there is a time which is appropriate for the transcending of the knots and blocks that prevent the free flow of Tao and realize THAT which is beyond knowledge of words and numbers.

Each will live their life according to what their mind finds most appropriate for where they are at in the present here and now, the Tao is ultimately never lost or gained.

Respectfully, Ben

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Hi zenzero,

Well let's see, perhaps the scheme is based on the differentiation and permutations of the primordial oneness along these lines....?

I (Tao that is described)...the one
I I (Differrentiation of Tao into Ying and Yang)....the two
I I I (Tao, Ying, and Yang)...the three
I I I I (A further differentiation of Ying into Ying ying, and Ying yang, and Yang into Yang ying and Yang yang)....the four, but which when summed with the higher three levels adds up to ten.
Further differentiations would continue to produce the ten thousand/infinite aspects of the original one)

There may be other ways of approach, but the principle of differentiation is the essential theme of the outward expression of Tao and integration is the religious theme of becoming one with Tao.

 

[Revoltingest]

Just popping back in to say....interesting thread, guys!

 

[angrymoose]

Hi angrymoose,
Yes, there is a time which is appropriate for the mind to experience, experiment, and discover the wonders and sorrows in the world of ten thousand things which are the expression of Tao. And likewise there is a time which is appropriate for the transcending of the knots and blocks that prevent the free flow of Tao and realize THAT which is beyond knowledge of words and numbers.

Ben, when you play tennis with somebody, do you discuss the importance of eating, or do you just focus on the experience of playing tennis? By "playing tennis" here, you can experience the free flow of the Tao, in a possibly different way than by other things.

From discussing the way heat engines work, we've gone already looked at the possible heat death of the universe, the orgin of the universe and the possiblility of design found in life. A door is opened by considering this simple idea and the elegance of the work of Carnot, in the same way a door is opened by considering the work of Sun-Tzu in the art of war, the work of the samuri slicer in considering the book of 5 rings or numerous others.

Each will live their life according to what their mind finds most appropriate for where they are at in the present here and now, the Tao is ultimately never lost or gained.

Tautology. Try suspending your favorite verse of the TTC for a few moments and exploring the ideas here. You will still be able to meditate, to adapt and to learn wu-wei.

Look at what the Taoists derived from contemplating the Yin and the Yang, the inherent duality in the universe.
Consider as in the next post that they derived trigrams from three yin yang lines and hexagrams from 2 hexagrams.

Now going to thermodynamics, ask yourself, what was doing with some very basic observations about hot and cold.

0 If two objects are the same temperature as each other, (not heating the other up), they are the same temperature as each other.
1 the energy of the universe is neither created nor destroyed.
2 if you make one object colder, you will have to make another object in the universe warmer. At the end of the day, the universe is causing heat to flow from its hot objects to its cold ones, ...
3. You can't cool an object below absolute zero. (I don't fully understand this law which is described in terms of crystals.)

 

[angrymoose]

The moose takes a moment to honour one of the great Taoist scientists, Ge Hong, the builder a the uncarved rock temple in Hangzhou, China, aka known are the Bao Pu Temple.

Friend ben,

Just like to use the opportunity to discuss the three which comes out of two.
Two are ying and yang what are the three?? and the ten??
Could you put light on it!

Love & rgds

Hi Zen Zero

Off topic response: (should spawn a thread on the tri-grams/hexgrams, I know a person who is very knowledgeable about them. He sees the i-ching as modeling the entire universe)

THIS IS THE KIND OF THING YOU ARE REFERRING TO REALLY:

In the image below, the center should be yin and yang

Back on topic

Zen Zero don't you find it interesting that some processes appear to be irreversible. (This is related to potential energy as well as to entropy)

1.) Heat flows from hot to cold.
2.) Gases mix with each other
3.) Objects fall to the ground

Imagine that some one by considering the heat flow from hot to cold, that Carnot and those that came after him, were able to derive a fundamental property of the universe.

:bow:

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Hi angrymoose,

Please go ahead and continue with your conceptual postulations about thermodynamics and the Tao. It was not my intention to distract from your thread, just to add background context.

Besides, everyone knows that you can only lead the horse so far, but then it is up to the horse.

Btw, in case you wonder, that is not me in the pic.

 

[zenzero]

Friends ben and angrymoose,

Thank you for that information. Yes surely 10 is just a number which is derived from the two. Tao always remains.

Another question for you two. *NON-BEING* - They too are forms but any light on their evolution??

Friend angrymoose, yes it is understood that water flows high to lower planes, gases moves from low to high air from cold to hot. Heat vaporises etc. etc. Understanding and harmonising oneself [form] with these laws of existence is what religion which is also called ways or paths are all about. The label Sanatan Dharma also refers to this the eternal laws of existence. There are humans today which was not there yesterday [past] and will not be there tomorrow [future] but existence remains.

Another point that like to share is that the expansion of this universe is totally dependent of the expansion of MINDS!

Over to you two.
Love & rgds

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Hi Zenzero,

Not sure what you mean by the concept NON-BEING which has form, can you elaborate?

 

[zenzero]

Friend ben,

Sorry ben, its not my day, another slip again, it should have been non-living!

Non-living like stones, mountains, how do they evolve.
Mahavira [jain saint] could recall all his past lives till he was a tree but tree is a living being but how does stones, mountains evolve was the actual question?

Love & rgds

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Hi zenzero,

Well this is waaaay off topic, angrymoose may be angry.

My understanding is that the universal chi entangled in the mineral kingdom evolves the very basis of binary awareness through the repetition of stresses experienced over aeon long periods subject to the diurnal envornmental variations of light and dark, day and night, heat and cold, expansion and contraction. With the advent of the entangled chi being able to move out of the rock and earth through entering in to a more complex but less stable body form such as elementary moss, the transition to a higher state of consciousness of the plant kingdom begins. All the time the main catalyst for increasing awareness is the repetitious cyclical nature inherent in the environment in which it lives, wet and dry, wind and no wind, hot and cold, sounds (of birds) or silence, etc..

All this is taking place in the 'womb' of the collective consciousness of mother Gaia and which is an involutional movement towards the individuation of the heavenly chi. From the plant kingdom the involution movement of elementary consciousness transitions to the animal kingdom and then to the human. About halfway through the aeon of existence of the present humanity on this physical planet, the individuation process reaches a peak of selfishness whereby ego consciousness is paramount with the simultaneous maximum loss of understanding of the inherent un-dual underlying nature of self and everything self perceives. This point has already passed and mankind is now in the period of evolution towards understanding of the inner nature and as a subsequence, the beginning of reintegration the universal mother

God sleeps in the rock,
Dreams in the plant,
Stirs in the animal,
And Awakens in Man.
- Al Arabi

 

[zenzero]

Friend ben,

Well is not thermodynamics of Tao working here??
If not, then sorry friend angrymoose, for being off topic.:yes::yes:

friend ben what you mention is true and was understood but the point that wanted to get at was what evidences have we [humans] found as have mentioned that Mahavira could regress consciously till the state of a tree. Does science have any evolutionary evidence of such non-living evolving to living state?

Love & rgds

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes zenzero, thermodynamics of Tao is ubiquitous.

And since it is my understanding that the whole cosmos is alive, it's seems to be just a case of relativity by the discriminating mind which conceives and/or perceives which kingdoms are more or less alive or conscious.

However will defer to those folk who are up to speed on contemporary scientific theory to answer the question of existence or lack thereof of acceptable evidence.

 

[zenzero]

Friend ben,
Yes you have hit the nail on the head!
It is the discriminating mind or else its just *nothingness*!
Love & rgds