thermodynamics and the Tao

[angrymoose]

One idea that comes up in Taoism, is the idea of looking at the whole rather than the individual parts.

The science of thermodynamics is about this. You are not concerned with one molecule but a whole lot of them.

The principles or laws of thermodynamics explain what happens in the real world. These are the laws of the macro universe.

Understanding them, is very important, if one seeks to understand the universe.

The basic principle of entropy was discovered by Carnot in his analysis of an ideal heat engine.

Nicolas Léonard Sadi Carnot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Untitled

EVERYONE knows that heat can produce motion. That it possesses vast motive-power no one can doubt, in these days when the steam-engines is everywhere so well known.
To heat also are due the vast movements which take place on the earth. It causes the agitations of the atmosphere, the ascension of clouds, the fall of rain and of meteors, the currents of water which channel the surface of the globe, and of which man has thus far employed but a small portion. Even earthquakes and volcanic eruptions are the result of heat. From this immense reservoir we may draw the moving force necessary for our purposes. Nature, in providing us with combustibles on all sides, has given us the power to produce, at all times and in all places, heat and the impelling power which is the result of it. To develop this power, to appropriate it to our uses, is the object of heat-engines.

So begins a study of one of the deepest aspects of the universe.

 

[zenzero]

Friend angrymoose,

Kindly understand that when is one with Tao; the oneness of things too become clear and that everything is not only scientific about existence but also that other subjects of study all fit into it like the well oiled machine.
So, whatever way one wishes to look at Tao there is no problem but first being one with Tao; how are you as a part of it in a form one with ????

Love & rgds

 

[Revoltingest]

Please forgive my saying too much in a DIR which isn't my own.
Let us also remember Clausius, who formulated the 2nd law.
It's interesting that the steam engine led to such a powerful way to view the universe. (That's one reason I collect those monsters.)
I never liked the idea of ultimate heat death though. One thermodynamics textbook author hated it so much, he posited that there must be
a supreme being to correct the eventuality of our demise. He put it right in the middle of his book....a most unusual surprise to us students.

 

[Sunburned]

The principles or laws of thermodynamics explain what happens in the real world. These are the laws of the macro universe.

Thermodynamics is a cornerstone of our modern understanding of the physical universe, but it's still only one part and I would argue that while such things are interesting, they are not essential to experience the Tao. I agree that they can be useful. Sometimes after during and after lectures I have had experiences of no mind interfering with my understanding. Such things, however, are more common for me when I do actual physical things like washing the dishes, shadow boxing.

 

[Sunburned]

Please forgive my saying too much in a DIR which isn't my own.
Let us also remember Clausius, who formulated the 2nd law.
It's interesting that the steam engine led to such a powerful way to view the universe. (That's one reason I collect those monsters.)
I never liked the idea of ultimate heat death though. One thermodynamics textbook author hated it so much, he posited that there must be
a supreme being to correct the eventuality of our demise. He put it right in the middle of his book....a most unusual surprise to us students.

Well that is surprising, do you remember the name of the textbook? I've seen people apply thermodynamics to some pretty funny things as proof. I also have the habit of buying used textbooks I don't really need, good to know I'm not alone. :help:

 

[Revoltingest]

Well that is surprising, do you remember the name of the textbook? I've seen people apply thermodynamics to some pretty funny things as proof. I also have the habit of buying used textbooks I don't really need, good to know I'm not alone. :help:

I still have it, but it's at home. I'll find out. Btw, I collect early engineering & science textbooks....just can't stop myself.

 

[angrymoose]

Kindly understand that when is one with Tao; the oneness of things too become clear and that everything is not only scientific about existence but also that other subjects of study all fit into it like the well oiled machine.

Science is a tool to understand some aspects of that well oiled machine. I agree that there exist aspects that science may have difficulty dealing with. Discussing those aspects in this thread would however be silly.

Please forgive my saying too much in a DIR which isn't my own.

In the name of Lao-Tzu, who may have existed, I forgive you. . For the record, historians don't know whether the TTC had a unique author or not.

Let us also remember Clausius, who formulated the 2nd law.

Clausius based his work on the work of Carnot. Check out the wiki entry on Clausius; I'd include it but my post is already a wall of text.

It's interesting that the steam engine led to such a powerful way to view the universe. (That's one reason I collect those monsters.)

Cool.

I never liked the idea of ultimate heat death though. One thermodynamics textbook author hated it so much, he posited that there must be
a supreme being to correct the eventuality of our demise. He put it right in the middle of his book....a most unusual surprise to us students.

Therein lies one of the odd mysteries of our universe.

I'm not a huge fan of the Kalam argument (fancy Latin term for something mind bogglingly simple) but we see an apparent beginning of the universe. No matter how you slice it, its strange and counter-intuitive.

My intuition is that the universe "restarts" but its pure speculation.

Options off the top of my head:
1) Universe popped into existence for no reason. Before nothing. :help:
2) Universe always existed in some form and for some unknown reason, it "restarted" :help:
3) A "being" who always existed, created the universe and manufactured it to reach an ultimate heat death. :help:
4) Its all circular ... :help:
5) Something happened for no reason and we are all going to enter permanent heat death. :help:
6) We haven't a clue. :bow:

 

[angrymoose]

Thermodynamics is a cornerstone of our modern understanding of the physical universe, but it's still only one part and I would argue that while such things are interesting, they are not essential to experience the Tao.

In order to "experience the Tao", you needs to be born. No further learning is required.

Understanding the Tao on the otherhand, is another matter altogether. (Hint: google the story of 6 blind men and an elephant.)

Now before you get angry and think I don't appreciate your feelings of wu-wei, you have to ask the question, what is the Tao.

I agree that they can be useful. Sometimes after during and after lectures I have had experiences of no mind interfering with my understanding. Such things, however, are more common for me when I do actual physical things like washing the dishes, shadow boxing.

Wu-wei and Tao are different but related things. This no mind you are referring to, can be an intutive understanding of whatever you are learning. In essence, you feel like a fish swimming in water. Perhaps, you have such a feeling for mathematical formulas that you can do them in your head, etc, etc.

Wu-wei is related to patterns which in term drive heuristics.

The universe is powered by patterns. It works in certain ways.

Politics in our society is powered by patterns, it works in certain ways.

You can fight those laws and cross the river against the current, or you can learn those laws and use the current to your advantage. What you must further recognize is our formal laws are incomplete. In addition to the laws we learn explicitly, we develop intuition and that drives innovation as well. Imagine a feedback loop if you will.

I'm told the Taoists were often great scientists. I went to the Bao Pu Zi, in HangZhu China. Apparently that temple, the "uncarved block". Apparently, Ge Hong, the master of that ancient temple sought a potion of immortality. I believe, he learned many things and even is said to have invented a dying industry. I'm unsure but he may have also explored "sexual energy" as well.

You mentioned shadow boxing. The martial arts are in fact based on basic physics. A person can likely, with a deep understanding of basic newtonian physics, devise better moves in those arts. Probably people have done this. Certainly the physics of the martial arts has been studied. Now, to master moves, one probably gets a "feel" for them but the mathematical understanding is another layer.

Imagine if you will, an onion.

Taoists rely on what is, not what they'd like things to be.

If its true that the law of second dynamics drives physical processes, it is a good thing to know and to internalize, if one if interested in exploring the Tao. When you know it well enough, you may be able to guess processes without performing calculations. I've no clue.

Sadly, my knowledge of physics isn't deep but I definitely see this as a door to be opened.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well that is surprising, do you remember the name of the textbook?

"Introduction to Thermodynamics Classical & Statistical"
by Richard Sonntag & Gordon Van Wylan
At the end of chapter 9, they discuss the existence of a divine creator.

 

[Sunburned]

I'm told the Taoists were often great scientists.

Indeed. As an example our chemistry today would probably not exist without Taoist alchemy(and scholars in the Islamic world who transmitted it to western alchemy). Many seemingly complex inventions were made simply by observing nature and how things work. In some stories Taoists are equated with scientists.

Here's a possibly inspirational link on this topic out of my bookmarks:
The Tao of Science

I believe this inspired the more popular Tao of Physics by Fritjof Capra.

I went to the Bao Pu Zi, in HangZhu China. Apparently that temple, the "uncarved block". Apparently, Ge Hong, the master of that ancient temple sought a potion of immortality. I believe, he learned many things and even is said to have invented a dying industry. I'm unsure but he may have also explored "sexual energy" as well.

This potion or pill is the same Philosopher's Stone as sought in the West by alchemists such as Isaac Newton.

You mentioned shadow boxing. The martial arts are in fact based on basic physics. A person can likely, with a deep understanding of basic newtonian physics, devise better moves in those arts. Probably people have done this. Certainly the physics of the martial arts has been studied. Now, to master moves, one probably gets a "feel" for them but the mathematical understanding is another layer.

Yes a particular move can be improved through physical understanding but even better for real fighting is physiological understanding and knowledge of your own body as opposed to say a punching bag.

Taoists rely on what is, not what they'd like things to be.

Agreed. :bow: I have found that people in general do not appreciate the honesty if it goes against their beliefs, however. Not many will make an effort to find the real if they are holding onto something.

If its true that the law of second dynamics drives physical processes, it is a good thing to know and to internalize, if one if interested in exploring the Tao. When you know it well enough, you may be able to guess processes without performing calculations. I've no clue.

I have studied some physics at university level. It's not easy to learn how things work without alot of work doing calculations and practical work. I would avoid the popular and easy texts if you want to go deep.

Sadly, my knowledge of physics isn't deep but I definitely see this as a door to be opened.

It can be a door. It can open or close things depending on the attitude of the student. For me alot of it was learning about the limitations of humans current knowledge and especially that of Cosmology which is still very much a work in progress in my humble opinion.

"Introduction to Thermodynamics Classical & Statistical"
by Richard Sonntag & Gordon Van Wylan
At the end of chapter 9, they discuss the existence of a divine creator.

I'll put this on my list of things to read, thanks. :bow:

 

[angrymoose]

Sun burned, I've never read a popular text on the matter. I was thinking that when you work with the equations for a while, you get a feeling for thenm a bit

I took a 3rd year thermo course and forgot everything. For my personal interest, some popular version might be good enough for me at this point. I'm not using it directly.

Now cryptology has information theory and that is related by means of an analogy.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sun burned, I've never read a popular text on the matter. I was thinking that when you work with the equations for a while, you get a feeling for thenm a bit

I took a 3rd year thermo course and forgot everything. For my personal interest, some popular version might be good enough for me at this point. I'm not using it directly.

Now cryptology has information theory and that is related by means of an analogy.

Interesting....you're the first poster I've seen to recognize the analogy,
rather than conflating the different uses of the word "entropy".

Btw, do you have an angry squirrel for a sidekick?

 

[Sunburned]

Sun burned, I've never read a popular text on the matter. I was thinking that when you work with the equations for a while, you get a feeling for thenm a bit

Yeah I can understand that being inspirational and useful.

Now cryptology has information theory and that is related by means of an analogy.

Interesting stuff, I needed to search for that since I don't know much about either. I think I got more reading to put on my list. :bow:

 

[angrymoose]

Interesting stuff, I needed to search for that since I don't know much about either. I think I got more reading to put on my list. :bow:

Heheheh, yes

Curiously, this information theory, created by Shanon at Bell Labs, is the basis for some creationists claim that in fact, a designer exists.

 

[Sunburned]

Heheheh, yes

Curiously, this information theory, created by Shanon at Bell Labs, is the basis for some creationists claim that in fact, a designer exists.

Well since entropy is a complex topic, I think it can be bent a little and used to "prove" just about anything. [EDIT: What I mean is some people will think that it's complex enough that bending it will somehow prover whatever they want, similiar to proving the immortality of the soul by preservation of energy]

I would say that all physical laws are "designers" and there needs to be no humanlike mind behind them. Taoism is wonderful in this sense, there is no need to butcher modern science to try to justify your own beliefs.

The Mind is produced from matter and dies with matter - from the Yin Fu Ching

 

[Revoltingest]

Well since entropy entropy is a complex topic, I think it can be bent a little and used to "prove" just about anything.

Application of entropy to energy considerations isn't that complex. A problem is that many misunderstand it.

 

[Sunburned]

Application of entropy to energy considerations isn't that complex.

Simple things such as F=mx" can be complex and take a whole book or just some honest work. It helps if there's no baggage.

There was a prof in University who started his first lecture with "I hope you haven't learned anything in high school because you're all going to have to unlearn it before you can understand what I'm about to teach you". I don't know if he was just wisely trying to shock everyone into listening or just a critique of our previous education, but somehow I can appreciate it from both views.

[Made a small edit to my post that you quoted above since I realized that it could be taken as me saying that it was okay to bend entropy to prove things instead of critiquing the abuse]

 

[Revoltingest]

Simple things such as F=mx" can be complex and take a whole book or just some honest work. It helps if there's no baggage.

There was a prof in University who started his first lecture with "I hope you haven't learned anything in high school because you're all going to have to unlearn it before you can understand what I'm about to teach you". I don't know if he was just wisely trying to shock everyone into listening or just a critique of our previous education, but somehow I can appreciate it from both views.

It's useful to look at things from different perspectives, & sometimes we need to unlearn things.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The Tao that can be described is not the Eternal Tao!

From the non-describable Tao comes the Tao that is described...the one.
From the one comes the dualistic complementary opposites of ying and yang.....the two.
From the two comes... the three,
From the three... the ten,
From the ten... the ten thousand things...infinity

The highest ultimate purpose of Taoism in the religious context is to realize the transcendent Tao,..not the conceptualized Tao of the mind. This require a still mind, not one subject to dualist thought processes.

The Great Way is not difficult
For those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent,
Everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction, however,
And heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
If you wish to see the truth
Then hold no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike
Is the disease of the mind.

When the deep meaning of things is not understood
The mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail.
The Way is perfect like vast space
Where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess.
Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject
That we do not see the true nature of things.
Be serene in the oneness of things. - Chien-chih Seng-ts'an

Don't mean to distract/derail your interesting discussion, just dropped by to offer some context, please carry on.

 

[zenzero]

Friend ben,

Just like to use the opportunity to discuss the three which comes out of two.
Two are ying and yang what are the three?? and the ten??
Could you put light on it!

Love & rgds