The folllowing link informs us that Baha'u'llah has abolished the concept of being unclean to assist people of different religions to associate with one another in loving harmony;
There Are No People of Satan
There Are No People of Satan
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There are no unclean
- Thread starter danieldemol
- Start date
Perhaps its an indication of how far we've come, that such a concept appears alien to many of us these days.
May I ask then how it is possible for Jesus to assign the "goats" to "everlasting destruction" as a place reserved for satan and his demons? Are these not "people of satan" who will share in his fate?
Matthew 25:31-33, 41-46:
“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
41 “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. 42 For I became hungry, but you gave me nothing to eat; and I was thirsty, but you gave me nothing to drink. 43 I was a stranger, but you did not receive me hospitably; naked, but you did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but you did not look after me.’ 44 Then they too will answer with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”
The disciple James seems to echo Baha'u'llah's concept of peaceful relations with all......which is really Jesus' concept.....
James 3:13-18:
"Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him by his fine conduct demonstrate works performed with a mildness that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and contentiousness in your hearts, do not be bragging and lying against the truth. 15 This is not the wisdom that comes down from above; it is earthly, animalistic, demonic. 16 For wherever there are jealousy and contentiousness, there will also be disorder and every vile thing.
17 But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, reasonable, ready to obey, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial, not hypocritical. 18 Moreover, the fruit of righteousness is sown in peaceful conditions for those who are making peace."
Jesus said that such "peacemakers" would "inherit the Kingdom".....he also said that "the meek shall inherit the earth".
How do Baha'i's interpret these verses?
arthra
Baha'i
That's a lovely scripture... Thanks for sharing it. You now Deeje Baha'is appreciate the Bible and New Testament and we generally prefer a spiritual interpretation of scripture but our primary scripture if you like to call it that are what we call the Writings of the Bab, the Writings of Baha'u'llah and the interpretations of Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. Let me add here a few excerpts that are on a similar theme to the scripture you posted above...
When a soul has in it the life of the spirit, then does it bring forth good fruit and become a Divine tree.
~ Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 99
Bahá'u'lláh declared the Most Great Peace and international arbitration. He voiced these principles in numerous Epistles which were circulated broadcast throughout the East. He wrote to all the kings and rulers, encouraging, advising and admonishing them in regard to the establishment of peace, making it evident by conclusive proofs that the happiness and glory of humanity can only be assured through disarmament and arbitration. This was nearly fifty years ago. Because He promulgated the message of universal peace and international agreement...
~ Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 120
So these are just a few excerpts from the Baha'i Writings on the general themes of the scripture you posted above.
Thank you arthra, do Baha'i's view the writings of of the Bab, the Writings of Baha'u'llah and the interpretations of Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi as above all others? If, for example you see something in the writings of Baha'u'llah that are a contradiction of something taught by Jesus Christ, how do you respond? Is there a way to reconcile the two?
Hi Deeje,
Love the pelican.
Coming back to the topic, we believe that the writings of Baha'u'llah etc are not contradictory to the teaching of Jesus.
What Abdul-Baha was saying in context is that all the religions except for a few are revealed by God. He states with reference to Judaism, Islam and Christianity, that they are not from 2 different trees, "Each one of the divine religions considers itself as belonging to a goodly and blessed tree, the tree of the Merciful, and all other religious systems as belonging to a tree of evil, the tree of Satan."1
That is not to say that from within the individual religions there are not some given over to selfish desires, termed people of satan. Baha'u'llah Himself many times criticised those given in to selfish desires. He also criticised leaders of religion who denied the Prophets in their day;
"For, what blasphemy is greater than to turn unto the manifestations of Satan, to follow the doctors of oblivion and the people of rebellion?"2
1 Promulgation of Universal Peace
2 Gems of divine mysteries page 31-59
Love the pelican.
Coming back to the topic, we believe that the writings of Baha'u'llah etc are not contradictory to the teaching of Jesus.
What Abdul-Baha was saying in context is that all the religions except for a few are revealed by God. He states with reference to Judaism, Islam and Christianity, that they are not from 2 different trees, "Each one of the divine religions considers itself as belonging to a goodly and blessed tree, the tree of the Merciful, and all other religious systems as belonging to a tree of evil, the tree of Satan."1
That is not to say that from within the individual religions there are not some given over to selfish desires, termed people of satan. Baha'u'llah Himself many times criticised those given in to selfish desires. He also criticised leaders of religion who denied the Prophets in their day;
"For, what blasphemy is greater than to turn unto the manifestations of Satan, to follow the doctors of oblivion and the people of rebellion?"2
1 Promulgation of Universal Peace
2 Gems of divine mysteries page 31-59
we have lots of them where I live....
kangaroos too.
The three Abrahamic faiths went their separate ways religiously speaking. But Jesus was clear when he said that "salvation originates with the Jews". (John 4:22) So how does Baha'i view the differences between these faiths? Do you see them as having different gods?
The Jews had YHWH, the Muslims have Allah and Christendom has a triune god who is considered to be Jesus Christ. Can they possibly be worshipping the same God?
The three appear to have irreconcilable differences....grounds for divorce?
I am thinking that God laments this very thing. He never intended for mankind to be divided up and using their divisions, whether religious or political to cause humans to slaughter one another....yet all of them have done so and continue the bloodshed. How do you see God rectifying this situation?
When it comes to scripture, how do you reconcile the three inspired writings (the OT, the Koran and the NT) as well as your own?
I am hard pressed to understand how all the world's religions (except for a few) could be authored by the same God.
1 Corinthians 14:33 says :
"For God is a God not of disorder but of peace."
To my way of thinking the disorder coming from religious differences cannot be from God.....how do you explain this disparity?
Hi Deeje,
The differences come from man and his limited capacity to understand God. God does not change and He is everlasting. Malachi 3:6
Consider the verse from Isaiah quoted by Jesus on the Mount of Olives during HIs final sermon.
"For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine." Isaiah 13:10
Jesus was speaking of the conditions that would happen at the end of the age accompanying His return. The verses are not to be taken literally but are symbolic for the condition of religion.
For example the sun refers to light shed from the Heavenly Teachings of Jesus becoming dimmed and misunderstood, the Moon no longer shine, the lowly state of the ministers of religion who once championed HIs cause, and the stars His follower who bring HIs Faith into disrepute.
Consider also the verses from Isaiah 40:4-5 referred to in Luke 3:5-6 regarding Christ's appearance
"Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."
These conditions did not happen literally but were symbolic. But we see in religion that the straight has become crooked.
Hope that helps
arthra
Baha'i
Good question Deeje! To be specific.. We view past dispensations such as reported in the Bible as inspired... but not necessarily accurate. There's a concept called Progressive Revelation ...so God reveals Himself through His Messengers such as Moses, Jesus and Muhammad and there are laws and social ordinances that are revealed for the ages in which They lived... So in the conditions when God revealed through Moses there were certain ordinances for the conditions of that time... Jesus came centuries later and He corrected the understanding of people of His time about what was required in Moses' time.. Spiritually Their messages were the same about loving God and loving your neighbor but the ordinances changed to deal with the conditions of humanity at the time.. The same is true we fell in regard to Muhammad and the same for the Bab and Baha'u'llah in other woirds the "manual" for today is more suited to the conditions we live in but the spiritual message is the same.
Now there's also another way to look at it... (there usually is!..right?) So we know that Jesus never left any of His teachings in His own hand writing, this means people after ward passed down His teachings ..first in Aramaic...later these were translated we think into Koine Greek.. later Coptic.. Later Latin.. and so on through Monk copiers till we have what we carry around to day and call the Gospels, etc. If His brother James had even recorded what Jesus said that would be something! But as far as we know that never happened.
Now consider Prophet Muhammad... He revealed what He received on Mount Hira and other places and later there were people who heard what He said and some of them recorded what the Prophet revealed in His own language which was Arabic....meanwhile what was revealed was recited regularly in community over time and secretariess wrote down what was recited... also Ali ibn abi Talib the cousin of the Prophet who was with Him through out also was there to supply the circumstances of the revelations and what they meant... In time of course various people added their own view and interpretations to what was revealed in the Qur'an and so on.
Now comes the Bab.. Who we believed was the Promised One of the Islamic dispensation as well as the Return of Christ...The Bab declared His Mission in 1260 AH a thousand years after the disappearance of the Twelfth Imam ... and 1260 AH corresponded exactly with the year 1844 CE which many Christians believed was the expected Return of Christ per prophecies they believed were in the Bible... I can also add here Baha'u'llah but the post is already pretty lengthy.. Anyway the Bab wrote down what was revealed to Him and many of His Writings survived but many more were destroyed by His enemies and naysayers...
Now given the above lengthy response to your question... Can you see where we're coming from? I realize you may not accept the truth of what I've written but the above is basically how we see it!
@arthra Thank you for the explanation.
Seeing the state of humanity and that Jesus said that his return would introduce the rulership of the kingdom....this is, I believe where we part company. Along with the coming of the Kingdom was the promise that suffering and death would end and that God's Kingdom would rule the earth, eliminating all causes of division among mankind. (Revelation 21:1-5) This is something I believe is yet future....but to each his own....
Peace
Seeing the state of humanity and that Jesus said that his return would introduce the rulership of the kingdom....this is, I believe where we part company. Along with the coming of the Kingdom was the promise that suffering and death would end and that God's Kingdom would rule the earth, eliminating all causes of division among mankind. (Revelation 21:1-5) This is something I believe is yet future....but to each his own....
Peace
Do you think its a limited understanding of God or a deliberate choice to leave the path that God originally laid for the human race?
Seeing as how we started out at the same place, man has diversified his spiritual interests largely to suit himself. Worshipping God or gods in his own way led to him to nothing but strife, hatred and bloodshed. I cannot see God being responsible for that.
Isn't this what Adam and Eve did?They wanted to do things "their" way.
We see that corruption in all religion.....with no hope of reconciliation among them in sight. Man will never reconcile his spiritual differences, but it's reconciliation with God that will facilitate the change. We believe that at the judgment, all who want to worship "their way" will not be granted citizenship in God's Kingdom. Humans now have to choose the form of worship acceptable to God, not just acceptable to themselves. That is my belief anyway.
arthra
Baha'i
@arthra Thank you for the explanation.
Seeing the state of humanity and that Jesus said that his return would introduce the rulership of the kingdom....this is, I believe where we part company. Along with the coming of the Kingdom was the promise that suffering and death would end and that God's Kingdom would rule the earth, eliminating all causes of division among mankind. (Revelation 21:1-5) This is something I believe is yet future....but to each his own....
Peace
And that's all right .. this is a DIR forum and so we don't dispute that much here as there are other forums on RF for that! For us the plan God revealed through Baha'u'llah includes building the foundations of a world civilization ... a world parliament, a universal auxiliary language... the equality of men and women and reducing the extremes of wealth and poverty , universal education, abolishing racism and class and religious prejudices... so wars and social injustice under these new conditions will become less likely.
That is my belief anyway.
Happy to discuss/debate further but not on a DIR forum.
One of these threads I started might be right up your alley!
The Exclusivity of Christianity: Myth or Reality
Is Jesus the Son of God?
Abomination of Desolation
Seventy weeks (490) in Daniel 9:24-27