• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

THE WALL !!!

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Walls of course aren't always people proof but they certainly do work. History has proven that sufficiently enough.

ONLY if they are strictly watched by actual people.

Unattended walls? Don't actually work at all-- and actual history shows this quite well.

Unless, naturally, you are a conservative.... and you get your "history" from Fox Snooze.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Is the wall going to be unmonitored?

Has to be-- it would be too long. There are areas *now* along the border, where the response time for an official to show up, is measured in hours, not minutes.

So, most of it won't be patrolled-- the logistics are simply impossible.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Something that has been largely absent from the commentary about "Himself's" Wall is that they don't and haven't ever worked. Hadrian's wall, The Berlin Wall, and China's Great Wall did not work. People just went around or under them.

OR, perhaps better relationships with Mexico and the rest of Central America and South America? OH, but they don't trust America you say? Whose fault is that, would you guess? I just heard that there are Methamphetamines coming from Vietnam. And, perhaps some very hard work on substance dependencies? Sorry to say this but it all comes right back onto Americans who need to grow up!

Oh, but there is far too much money for the rich to make by confining offenders, lamely counselling offenders, and doing all the things that produce revenue but don't dry the demand up.

RANT OFF!
Government of the south has become dysfunctional
maybe the sun is too intense

and no.....this country cannot absorb the migration coming our way

politics?......I say again.....
take over Mexico
install American law
teach English (it's the language of business)
anyone looking for work......can be hired to build the wall
 

Dell

Asteroid insurance?
Citation Needed. I live in Oklahoma-- and the shoplifting issue? Mostly comes from poor people who are legally born here.

Same for uninsured drivers: poor, who cannot afford insurance, because they work 2 or 3 "McJobs" that pay below poverty wages.

RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE? And *poof* like MAGIC, most of these crimes you whine about, simply dissappear...

We have actual statistics that prove this is true: Communities that have raised the minimum wage? Suffer lower crime rates.... !

WHO KNEW?

(well, most Progressive thinkers knew... but apparently NO conservatives did-- they still think that "trickle down" works.... in spite of 30 years of PROOF THAT IT DOES NOT)

TEXAS
According to DHS status indicators, over 276,000 criminal aliens have been booked into local Texas jails between June 1, 2011 and December 31, 2018, of which over 186,000 were classified as illegal aliens by DHS.

Between June 1, 2011 and December 31, 2018, these 186,000 illegal aliens were charged with more than 292,000 criminal offenses which included arrests for 539 homicide charges; 32,443 assault charges; 5,695 burglary charges; 36,840 drug charges; 395 kidnapping charges; 15,859 theft charges; 23,487 obstructing police charges; 1,650 robbery charges; 3,428 sexual assault charges; 2,152 sexual offense charges; and 2,949 weapon charges. DPS criminal history records reflect those criminal charges have thus far resulted in over 120,000 convictions including 238 homicide convictions; 13,559 assault convictions; 3,138 burglary convictions; 17,806 drug convictions; 173 kidnapping convictions; 7,064 theft convictions; 11,264 obstructing police convictions; 1,011 robbery convictions; 1,689 sexual assault convictions; 1,148 sexual offense convictions; and 1,280 weapon convictions.

Illegal-immigrant crime calculations conveniently and invariably steal a base by leaving out the millions of crimes committed by illegal immigrants related to procuring fraudulent social security numbers, obtaining false drivers’ licenses, using fraudulent green cards, and improperly accessing public benefits.

Using Arizona Department of Corrections data spanning 1985–2017, calculates that illegal immigrants in Arizona aged 18-35, for example, are 250 percent more likely to commit crimes than young U.S. citizens. Further, such illegal immigrants commit more serious crimes — such as murder, robbery, and sexual assault.

Illegal immigration is itself a crime. Also if you do live in Oklahoma you must have your head in the sand. Illegal immigrants are everywhere and far worse in south Texas.

I agree about the poor in Oklahoma and also agree the majority of crimes are by citizens. It's sad rent and insurance is so high and pay so low. I think the avg pay is 40k a year which still sounds high by what I can see.
 
Last edited:

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
TEXAS
According to DHS status indicators, over 276,000 criminal aliens have been booked into local Texas jails between June 1, 2011 and December 31, 2018, of which over 186,000 were classified as illegal aliens by DHS.

Between June 1, 2011 and December 31, 2018, these 186,000 illegal aliens were charged with more than 292,000 criminal offenses which included arrests for 539 homicide charges; 32,443 assault charges; 5,695 burglary charges; 36,840 drug charges; 395 kidnapping charges; 15,859 theft charges; 23,487 obstructing police charges; 1,650 robbery charges; 3,428 sexual assault charges; 2,152 sexual offense charges; and 2,949 weapon charges. DPS criminal history records reflect those criminal charges have thus far resulted in over 120,000 convictions including 238 homicide convictions; 13,559 assault convictions; 3,138 burglary convictions; 17,806 drug convictions; 173 kidnapping convictions; 7,064 theft convictions; 11,264 obstructing police convictions; 1,011 robbery convictions; 1,689 sexual assault convictions; 1,148 sexual offense convictions; and 1,280 weapon convictions.

Illegal-immigrant crime calculations conveniently and invariably steal a base by leaving out the millions of crimes committed by illegal immigrants related to procuring fraudulent social security numbers, obtaining false drivers’ licenses, using fraudulent green cards, and improperly accessing public benefits.

Using Arizona Department of Corrections data spanning 1985–2017, calculates that illegal immigrants in Arizona aged 18-35, for example, are 250 percent more likely to commit crimes than young U.S. citizens. Further, such illegal immigrants commit more serious crimes — such as murder, robbery, and sexual assault.

Illegal immigration is itself a crime. Also if you do live in Oklahoma you must have your head in the sand. Illegal immigrants are everywhere and far worse in south Texas.

I agree about the poor in Oklahoma and also agree the majority of crimes are by citizens. It's sad rent and insurance is so high and pay so low. I think the avg pay is 40k a year which still sounds high by what I can see.
I posted it a while back, but four other studies do not support your numbers, and the one you cite above has been debunked. The other four studies showed that "illegals" tend to commit fewer crimes than the native borne. If you cannot find those other studies, just let me know and I'll get them for you on Monday as I don't have the time right now.
 

Dell

Asteroid insurance?
I posted it a while back, but four other studies do not support your numbers, and the one you cite above has been debunked. The other four studies showed that "illegals" tend to commit fewer crimes than the native borne. If you cannot find those other studies, just let me know and I'll get them for you on Monday as I don't have the time right now.
I'm not debating illegals commit more crimes than natural citizens, that would be rediculas... but the fact is illegals in this country commit large numbers of crimes. Compare crime statistics by illegals in other countries to the U.S... I would bet the numbers are astronomically lopsided and would suggest we have a serious illegal immigration problem.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
Not that I am endorsing impalement but Vlad Tepesh's wall worked very well and it wasn't really a full blown wall.

That guy didn't mess around when it came to impalement...

"Turkish messengers came to [Vlad] to pay respects, but refused to take off their turbans, according to their ancient custom, whereupon he strengthened their custom by nailing their turbans to their heads with three spikes, so that they could not take them off."
— Antonio Bonfini: Historia Pannonica
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
An engineer speaks about the wall...

Howdy.

To recap: I’m a licensed structural and civil engineer with a MS in structural engineering from the top program in the nation and over a decade of experience on high-performance projects, and particularly of cleaning up design disasters where the factors weren’t properly accounted for, and I’m an adjunct professor of structural analysis and design at UH-Downtown. I have previously been deposed as an expert witness in matters regarding proper construction of walls and the various factors associated therein, and my testimony has passed Daubert.

Am I a wall expert? I am. I am literally a court-accepted expert on walls.

Structurally and civil engineering-wise, the border wall is not a feasible project. Trump did not hire engineers to design the thing. He solicited bids from contractors, not engineers. This means it’s not been designed by professionals. It’s a disaster of numerous types waiting to happen.

What disasters?

Off the top of my head...
1) It will mess with our ability to drain land in flash flooding. Anything impeding the ability of water to get where it needs to go (doesn’t matter if there are holes in the wall or whatever) is going to dramatically increase the risk of flooding.
2) Messes with all kind of stuff ecologically. For all other projects, we have to do an Environmental Site Assessment, which is arduous. They’re either planning to circumvent all this, or they haven’t accounted for it yet, because that’s part of the design process, and this thing hasn’t been designed.
3) The prototypes they came up with are nearly impossible to build or don’t actually do the job. This article explains more:

https://www.google.com/…/mobile.engineering.…/amp/17599.html

And so on.

The estimates provided for the cost are arrived at unreasonably. You can look for yourself at the two-year-old estimate that you see everyone citing.

http://fronterasdesk.org/…/Bernstein-%20The%20Trump%20Wall.…

It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign... It’s going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trump’s lifetime.

I’m a structural forensicist, which means I’m called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong. When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just *obliterated*. And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there aren’t that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project— a large quotient of us are immigrants, and besides, we can’t afford to bid on jobs that are this political. We’re small firms, and we’re already busy, and we don’t gamble our reputations on political footballs. So you’d end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and it’d generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me.

And it won’t be effective. I could, right now, purchase a 32 foot extension ladder and weld a cheap custom saddle for the top of the proposed wall so that I can get over it. I don’t know who they talked to about the wall design and its efficacy, but it sure as heck wasn’t anybody with any engineering imagination.

Another thing: we are not far from the day where inexpensive drones will be able to pick up and carry someone. This will happen in the next ten years, and it’s folly to think that the coyotes who ferry people over the border won’t purchase or create them. They’re low enough, quiet enough, and small enough to quickly zip people over any wall we could build undetected with our current monitoring setup.

Let’s have border security, by all means, but let’s be smart about it. This is not smart. It’s not effective. It’s NOT cheap. The returns will be diminishing as technology advances, too. This is a ridiculous idea that will never be successfully executed and, as such, would be a monumental waste of money. ‍♀️

This is set to public. Have a blast sharing it.

That's Amy Patrick on her Facebook page.
Amy Patrick

Of course she is an expert and will be ignored by Trump and his GOP cronies.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
Has to be-- it would be too long. There are areas *now* along the border, where the response time for an official to show up, is measured in hours, not minutes.

So, most of it won't be patrolled-- the logistics are simply impossible.

It sounds like the alternative to the wall is to do nothing and just hope that the illegal’s fail to discover these suspect areas.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
An engineer speaks about the wall...

Howdy.

To recap: I’m a licensed structural and civil engineer with a MS in structural engineering from the top program in the nation and over a decade of experience on high-performance projects, and particularly of cleaning up design disasters where the factors weren’t properly accounted for, and I’m an adjunct professor of structural analysis and design at UH-Downtown. I have previously been deposed as an expert witness in matters regarding proper construction of walls and the various factors associated therein, and my testimony has passed Daubert.

Am I a wall expert? I am. I am literally a court-accepted expert on walls.

Structurally and civil engineering-wise, the border wall is not a feasible project. Trump did not hire engineers to design the thing. He solicited bids from contractors, not engineers. This means it’s not been designed by professionals. It’s a disaster of numerous types waiting to happen.

What disasters?

Off the top of my head...
1) It will mess with our ability to drain land in flash flooding. Anything impeding the ability of water to get where it needs to go (doesn’t matter if there are holes in the wall or whatever) is going to dramatically increase the risk of flooding.
2) Messes with all kind of stuff ecologically. For all other projects, we have to do an Environmental Site Assessment, which is arduous. They’re either planning to circumvent all this, or they haven’t accounted for it yet, because that’s part of the design process, and this thing hasn’t been designed.
3) The prototypes they came up with are nearly impossible to build or don’t actually do the job. This article explains more:

https://www.google.com/…/mobile.engineering.…/amp/17599.html

And so on.

The estimates provided for the cost are arrived at unreasonably. You can look for yourself at the two-year-old estimate that you see everyone citing.

http://fronterasdesk.org/…/Bernstein-%20The%20Trump%20Wall.…

It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign... It’s going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trump’s lifetime.

I’m a structural forensicist, which means I’m called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong. When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just *obliterated*. And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there aren’t that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project— a large quotient of us are immigrants, and besides, we can’t afford to bid on jobs that are this political. We’re small firms, and we’re already busy, and we don’t gamble our reputations on political footballs. So you’d end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and it’d generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me.

And it won’t be effective. I could, right now, purchase a 32 foot extension ladder and weld a cheap custom saddle for the top of the proposed wall so that I can get over it. I don’t know who they talked to about the wall design and its efficacy, but it sure as heck wasn’t anybody with any engineering imagination.

Another thing: we are not far from the day where inexpensive drones will be able to pick up and carry someone. This will happen in the next ten years, and it’s folly to think that the coyotes who ferry people over the border won’t purchase or create them. They’re low enough, quiet enough, and small enough to quickly zip people over any wall we could build undetected with our current monitoring setup.

Let’s have border security, by all means, but let’s be smart about it. This is not smart. It’s not effective. It’s NOT cheap. The returns will be diminishing as technology advances, too. This is a ridiculous idea that will never be successfully executed and, as such, would be a monumental waste of money. ‍♀️

This is set to public. Have a blast sharing it.

That's Amy Patrick on her Facebook page.
Amy Patrick

Of course she is an expert and will be ignored by Trump and his GOP cronies.

Shared on my Facebook
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
It sounds like the alternative to the wall is to do nothing and just hope that the illegal’s fail to discover these suspect areas.

It is a question of the wise redistribution of resources. Care and love, not Guards and bullets. Helping Americans to get their heads out and stop creating the drug problem. Helping to heal the poverty in the south that America has a direct role in creating. The List goes on and on.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
It is a question of the wise redistribution of resources. Care and love, not Guards and bullets. Helping Americans to get their heads out and stop creating the drug problem. Helping to heal the poverty in the south that America has a direct role in creating. The List goes on and on.

I do not see how a nation can call itself a nation without borders.
 

Dell

Asteroid insurance?
An engineer speaks about the wall...

Howdy.

To recap: I’m a licensed structural and civil engineer with a MS in structural engineering from the top program in the nation and over a decade of experience on high-performance projects, and particularly of cleaning up design disasters where the factors weren’t properly accounted for, and I’m an adjunct professor of structural analysis and design at UH-Downtown. I have previously been deposed as an expert witness in matters regarding proper construction of walls and the various factors associated therein, and my testimony has passed Daubert.

Am I a wall expert? I am. I am literally a court-accepted expert on walls.

Structurally and civil engineering-wise, the border wall is not a feasible project. Trump did not hire engineers to design the thing. He solicited bids from contractors, not engineers. This means it’s not been designed by professionals. It’s a disaster of numerous types waiting to happen.

What disasters?

Off the top of my head...
1) It will mess with our ability to drain land in flash flooding. Anything impeding the ability of water to get where it needs to go (doesn’t matter if there are holes in the wall or whatever) is going to dramatically increase the risk of flooding.
2) Messes with all kind of stuff ecologically. For all other projects, we have to do an Environmental Site Assessment, which is arduous. They’re either planning to circumvent all this, or they haven’t accounted for it yet, because that’s part of the design process, and this thing hasn’t been designed.
3) The prototypes they came up with are nearly impossible to build or don’t actually do the job. This article explains more:

https://www.google.com/…/mobile.engineering.…/amp/17599.html

And so on.

The estimates provided for the cost are arrived at unreasonably. You can look for yourself at the two-year-old estimate that you see everyone citing.

http://fronterasdesk.org/…/Bernstein-%20The%20Trump%20Wall.…

It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign... It’s going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trump’s lifetime.

I’m a structural forensicist, which means I’m called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong. When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just *obliterated*. And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there aren’t that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project— a large quotient of us are immigrants, and besides, we can’t afford to bid on jobs that are this political. We’re small firms, and we’re already busy, and we don’t gamble our reputations on political footballs. So you’d end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and it’d generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me.

And it won’t be effective. I could, right now, purchase a 32 foot extension ladder and weld a cheap custom saddle for the top of the proposed wall so that I can get over it. I don’t know who they talked to about the wall design and its efficacy, but it sure as heck wasn’t anybody with any engineering imagination.

Another thing: we are not far from the day where inexpensive drones will be able to pick up and carry someone. This will happen in the next ten years, and it’s folly to think that the coyotes who ferry people over the border won’t purchase or create them. They’re low enough, quiet enough, and small enough to quickly zip people over any wall we could build undetected with our current monitoring setup.

Let’s have border security, by all means, but let’s be smart about it. This is not smart. It’s not effective. It’s NOT cheap. The returns will be diminishing as technology advances, too. This is a ridiculous idea that will never be successfully executed and, as such, would be a monumental waste of money. ‍♀️

This is set to public. Have a blast sharing it.

That's Amy Patrick on her Facebook page.
Amy Patrick

Of course she is an expert and will be ignored by Trump and his GOP cronies.
Very informative... no doubt if designed improperly a waste. I wouldn't suggest just because it contracted out that it makes it automatically badly engineered. Northrop Gruman is a military contractor which designs the most advanced aircraft on earth.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
It sounds like the alternative to the wall is to do nothing and just hope that the illegal’s fail to discover these suspect areas.

LOL! They are well organized. Social Media? Informs them where the non-patrolled areas are from day to day--

-- it's chronic that the tЯump cut funding for border security, and there are too few officers to be effective.

In fact, there's always been too few feet on the ground, to be effective.

That's why the illegal drug trade shifts billions of tons of illegal drugs across the border all the time.

The "wall" is a massive joke-- tЯump doesn't give a sh-- about the wall. It's just a distraction.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
An engineer speaks about the wall...

Howdy.

To recap: I’m a licensed structural and civil engineer with a MS in structural engineering from the top program in the nation and over a decade of experience on high-performance projects, and particularly of cleaning up design disasters where the factors weren’t properly accounted for, and I’m an adjunct professor of structural analysis and design at UH-Downtown. I have previously been deposed as an expert witness in matters regarding proper construction of walls and the various factors associated therein, and my testimony has passed Daubert.

Am I a wall expert? I am. I am literally a court-accepted expert on walls.

Structurally and civil engineering-wise, the border wall is not a feasible project. Trump did not hire engineers to design the thing. He solicited bids from contractors, not engineers. This means it’s not been designed by professionals. It’s a disaster of numerous types waiting to happen.

What disasters?

Off the top of my head...
1) It will mess with our ability to drain land in flash flooding. Anything impeding the ability of water to get where it needs to go (doesn’t matter if there are holes in the wall or whatever) is going to dramatically increase the risk of flooding.
2) Messes with all kind of stuff ecologically. For all other projects, we have to do an Environmental Site Assessment, which is arduous. They’re either planning to circumvent all this, or they haven’t accounted for it yet, because that’s part of the design process, and this thing hasn’t been designed.
3) The prototypes they came up with are nearly impossible to build or don’t actually do the job. This article explains more:

https://www.google.com/…/mobile.engineering.…/amp/17599.html

And so on.

The estimates provided for the cost are arrived at unreasonably. You can look for yourself at the two-year-old estimate that you see everyone citing.

http://fronterasdesk.org/…/Bernstein-%20The%20Trump%20Wall.…

It does not account for rework, complexities beyond the prototype design, factors to prevent flood and environmental hazard creation, engineering redesign... It’s going to be higher than $50bn. The contractors will hit the government with near CONSTANT change orders. “Cost overrun” will be the name of the game. It will not be completed in Trump’s lifetime.

I’m a structural forensicist, which means I’m called in when things go wrong. This is a project that WILL go wrong. When projects go wrong, the original estimates are just *obliterated*. And when that happens, good luck getting it fixed, because there aren’t that many forensicists out there to right the ship, particularly not that are willing to work on a border wall project— a large quotient of us are immigrants, and besides, we can’t afford to bid on jobs that are this political. We’re small firms, and we’re already busy, and we don’t gamble our reputations on political footballs. So you’d end up with a revolving door of contractors making a giant, uncoordinated muddle of things, and it’d generally be a mess. Good money after bad. The GAO agrees with me.

And it won’t be effective. I could, right now, purchase a 32 foot extension ladder and weld a cheap custom saddle for the top of the proposed wall so that I can get over it. I don’t know who they talked to about the wall design and its efficacy, but it sure as heck wasn’t anybody with any engineering imagination.

Another thing: we are not far from the day where inexpensive drones will be able to pick up and carry someone. This will happen in the next ten years, and it’s folly to think that the coyotes who ferry people over the border won’t purchase or create them. They’re low enough, quiet enough, and small enough to quickly zip people over any wall we could build undetected with our current monitoring setup.

Let’s have border security, by all means, but let’s be smart about it. This is not smart. It’s not effective. It’s NOT cheap. The returns will be diminishing as technology advances, too. This is a ridiculous idea that will never be successfully executed and, as such, would be a monumental waste of money. ‍♀️

This is set to public. Have a blast sharing it.

That's Amy Patrick on her Facebook page.
Amy Patrick

Of course she is an expert and will be ignored by Trump and his GOP cronies.

Dang streams, they have no respect for government boundaries. I too had heard of the problem of how streams took out mere fences, with all of their supposed drawbacks. A wall would be even a bigger barrier to water and would fail even sooner.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
LOL! They are well organized. Social Media? Informs them where the non-patrolled areas are from day to day--

-- it's chronic that the tЯump cut funding for border security, and there are too few officers to be effective.

In fact, there's always been too few feet on the ground, to be effective.

That's why the illegal drug trade shifts billions of tons of illegal drugs across the border all the time.

The "wall" is a massive joke-- tЯump doesn't give a sh-- about the wall. It's just a distraction.

So doing nothing is better than doing something is it.

What is more effective than a wall/fence?
 
Top