Niatero
*banned*
I've read the creed of Nicaea, the Nicene creed, the Athanasian creed, the Apostle's creed, and explanations of the Trinity on the websites of 8 trinitarian denominations.
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The Trinity - What on Earth is it?
- Thread starter rocala
- Start date
It means that someone gave Jesus life: a son always has a father.
In this situation, God was / is his Father. If you read John 17 - and numerous other places, Jesus calls God his Father.
In the same sense that Adam is called “son of God”.. Luke 3:38.
cataway
Well-Known Member
the Phoenicians worshipped Ulomus, Ulosuros, and Eliun, while Rome worshipped Jupiter, Neptune, and Pluto. In Germanic nations, these gods were called Wodan, Thor, and Fricco.
all are trinities of gods believed in long before Jesus was born. it's a pagan thing held to by pagans
Niatero
*banned*
Now I'm thinking that if a person can't be a true Christian, or can't be saved, without believing the exact words of the Nicene creed, the Athanasian creed and the Trinity triangle, that would mean that none of the first Christians were true Christians and none of them were saved. If it was that important, then the apostles would have required people to accept those creeds and that would be recorded in the gospels.
I don't remember if I said this already. The only way that I can agree with the Nicene creed and the Trinity triangle is by understanding some of the words in them in ways that I think are different from the ways that anyone else in these discussions understands them, so I think it's better for me to just say that I don't agree with them. I don't think that believing them disqualifies anyone from being a Christian or from being saved, but I don't believe them myself, in any way that I think anyone else here might believe in them. I do think that I might be agreeing with some of the fathers, and maybe some Christian theologians, but not with any official teachings of Trinitarian churches, and not with anyone promoting Trinity beliefs in online discussions.
I don't remember if I said this already. The only way that I can agree with the Nicene creed and the Trinity triangle is by understanding some of the words in them in ways that I think are different from the ways that anyone else in these discussions understands them, so I think it's better for me to just say that I don't agree with them. I don't think that believing them disqualifies anyone from being a Christian or from being saved, but I don't believe them myself, in any way that I think anyone else here might believe in them. I do think that I might be agreeing with some of the fathers, and maybe some Christian theologians, but not with any official teachings of Trinitarian churches, and not with anyone promoting Trinity beliefs in online discussions.
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PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
The title "Son of God" is not to be confused with "the only Son of God".
441 In the Old Testament, "son of God" is a title given to the angels, the Chosen People, the children of Israel, and their kings. It signifies an adoptive sonship that establishes a relationship of particular intimacy between God and his creature. When the promised Messiah-King is called "son of God", it does not necessarily imply that he was more than human, according to the literal meaning of these texts. Those who called Jesus "son of God", as the Messiah of Israel, perhaps meant nothing more than this. (CCC)
This was then extended to "the only Son of God" - the pre-existent Word (Logos). John 10
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him,
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’ ?
35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Matthew 11:27
All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
240 Jesus revealed that God is Father in an unheard-of sense: he is Father not only in being Creator; he is eternally Father by his relationship to his only Son who, reciprocally, is Son only in relation to his Father... (CCC)
Yes, John 1:1 that pre-human heavenly Jesus was in the beginning.
Psalms 90:2 says God is from everlasting meaning No beginning. No starting point.
Whereas, pre-human heavenly Jesus had a start, had a beginning in the heavens - Rev. 3:14 B
So, only the God of Jesus was BEFORE any beginning.
Heavenly resurrected Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12
Psalms 90:2 says God is from everlasting meaning No beginning. No starting point.
Whereas, pre-human heavenly Jesus had a start, had a beginning in the heavens - Rev. 3:14 B
So, only the God of Jesus was BEFORE any beginning.
Heavenly resurrected Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12
... and to help bring non-Christians into the fold Constantine let the non-Christians keep their ideas but now just using Christian names or labels.
.... but who did Jesus say we should worship at John 4:23-24 but his God.
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12
Niatero
*banned*
I don't agree with any Trinity doctrines or with the Trinity triangle in any way that I think anyone could be thinking. It looks to me like God counts worshipping Jesus and the Holy Spirit as worshipping Him. God and Jesus talk to each other and about each other in genuine ways as if they are separate persons. God doesn't explain how that's possible, and I don't agree with the ways that Trinity doctrines try to explain it.
I don't see Jesus as being literally the son of God in the same sense sons have arisen from a married couple in the traditional sense. I'm sure the Gospel writers did not see it in the same way either.
The phrases 'Son of God' and 'son of man' are used throughout the gospels, perhaps in different ways, usually in reference to Jesus. Its worth noting the phrase appears in the Tanakh too, for example in reference to the Prophet Daniel. It would make sense that Jesus in preaching to an almost exclusively Jewish audience, would use language that built on their knowledge and understanding of Jewish scripture. The Gospel writers had a similar concern as the early churches emerged a few decades after the crucifixion of Christ.
This is the starting point to understanding the relationships between Jesus the Son of God, God the Father and the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Trinity that emerged nearly 300 years later during the Council of Nicea was an attempt by the Church to reconcile divergent understandings about these relationships. The development of the Nicene Creed assisted unifying the Church. To what extent it assisted a proper theological understanding of the Teachings of Christ was debatable then and is debatable today.
That's where I'm at with the Trinity. I don't know if it makes sense to others and I'm not sure to what extent Christians would agree or disagree. The Trinity is an optional part of my faith whereas for many Christians it is a non negotiable doctrine and truth.
cataway
Well-Known Member
which trinity ? different religions have different definitions
Colt
Well-Known Member
The common concept of the Trinity evolved in Christendom as the result of 3 separate divine entities in Christian theology. The Father of Jesus (Son of God) and the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus. But Jesus never said he was the second person of the Trinity, it's just assumed. While Jesus did refer to three separate entities, Matthew 28 BSB it was speculation and conjecture that concluded that Jesus is co-equal with the other 2 entities and in a Trinity.
The trinity is a Christian doctrine that is exemplified in various Christian Creeds from the Nicene to Athanasian Creeds. It is central to most mainstream Christian denominations whether Protestant or Catholic. Its not an important part of any other world religion.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the term son of God is used many ways. For Jesus it means He is a son which is true since Mary bore Him, and He is of God in that God's Spirit is the only spirit in Him.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that is not a biological reality but is a relationship reality.
Muffled
Jesus in me
If sperm were involved, then it was created by God since Mary was a virgin. One could consider it adoption but the relationship is even closer than that since it is God as Son and Father.
The idea that Christianity borrowed from paganism in regards the trinity concept is unsupported by most scholars, Christian or secular. Although the word trinity is mentioned in the New Testament the development of thought from the Gospel accounts to the Nicene Creed is clear enough to anyone who has taken the time to research the matter. Whether or not the doctrine is the best fit for understanding the Gospels is another story with competing narratives which the Council of Nicea attempted to resolve.
Yes, God and Jesus talk to each other.... because they are separate persons God is Father, Jesus is Son.
The trinity is a teaching outside of Scripture just taught as being Scripture.
Jesus taught us as to Who to worship at John 4:23-24 to worship his Father, his God.
Pre-human heavenly Jesus did Not send himself to Earth but his Father sent heavenly Jesus to Earth for us.