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The trinity of three scriptures destroys the myth of the Trinity:

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by iris89, Dec 27, 2004.

  1. kassi

    kassi Member

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    Let me ask you this. If you really believe that we have the opportunity for eternal life and this is based on what we believe and what we do, then are you certain that what you believe, without a doubt will bring that eternal life? Is it a sure foundation? Will you be found false? This is something we all have to ask ourselves for ourselves? I believe
    being found a false witness would be a really scarey thing? So I suppose that even I should be more carefull what I teach. You dont have to convence me what you teach,
    but be prepared to convence God.
     
  2. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    I just voted "yes" on this by accident...

    Oh well, I guess it's appropriate, since she argues against the Trinity and I'm Trinitarian.
     
  3. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi kassi

    A good question you ask. I have written an article on the subject as follows:

    Discourse on Salvation

    SALVATION AN IMPORTANT SUBJECT:

    Salvation is an important subject that all genuine Christians need to learn a lot more about. It is imperative that we all have a correct understanding on what is meant by Salvation in the Bible. Unfortunately, many have the wrong understanding and outlook on this Biblical subject.

    So many look for a physical instead of a spiritual answer to many things in the Bible and overlook the definition even of a miracle. A Miracle is defined as an event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God: “Miracles are spontaneous, they cannot be summoned, but come of themselves” (Katherine Anne Porter). [The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition]

    On a similar note, a BBC programme on Moses shows the doubting Thomas syndrome that appears to be permeating our society even among those who claim to be Christian. It appears that, while critics are now happy to concede that archeological findings confirm events like the ten plagues and the Exodus out of Egypt COULD have happened, they'll insist on rational explanations for them!

    However, we can not be doubting about the subject of salvation, but must study the scriptures like the Bereans, “ These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Acts 17:11 AV). To that end, let’s look into the subject of salvation.

    WHAT IS SALVATION?

    Let’s examine the scriptures and determine exactly what salvation really is in the Biblical usage:

    “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” (John 3:14-17 AV). Here we see that inorder to obtain salvation, we must believe in God’s (YHWH’s) Son, Jesus (Yeshua or YHWH saves) whom his Father (YHWH) sent into the world to provide a means of salvation for us.” (Matthew 3:14-17 AV – Authorized King James Version).

    Yes, salvation from bondage to sin with everlasting life in view:

    “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
    19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
    20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
    21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
    22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:16-23 AV). These scriptures clearly show that the Biblical salvation is from bondage to sin and death; with the hope of everlasting life under a righteous kingdom with God’s (YHWH’s) Son as its king as we all pray for in the Lord’s prayer, “After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.” (Matthew 6:9-10 AV).

    We must seize the word of God (YHWH) and seize our opportunity for salvation as the scriptures clearly show:

    “Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
    47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
    48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
    49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.” (Acts 13:46-49 AV)

    to read the remainder, go to :

    Discourse on Salvation

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=70

    as post longer than 10,000 characters can not be posted on this forum.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  4. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    I was thinking the VERY SAME THING about you?

    Is it just because you are unable to fully comprehend it and so must reject the "trinity"? That's merely pride masquerading as doctrinal purity.

    Is it because it sets you apart from the "lessor" sects? That again would be pride but without the masquerade.

    Do you think that there is a verse that says "Those that believe in the Trinity shall be cast into the third lake of fire for all eternity"? That would be arrogance in that you feel qualified to add to the word of God.

    So far, it appears that you are very quick to expose all sorts of false teaching that disagrees with YOUR opinion but that the scriptures do not expressly speak about. You ramble on and on trying to connect dots that were never meant to be connected but you are not willing to examine yourself. You quote scriptures about love and yet miss the point of "loving your neighbor".

    Iris, we have a ton of people here who see scriptures from various perspectives and you dismiss them all without any examination. Are you SURE that we are the ones with the aversion to learning? If you are, then you haven't opened your eyes to the reality that is God.

    I do pray that the eyes of your heart may be opened, so that you can see how spiritually myopic you appear to us and to God. Here is a GREAT rule of thumb:

    Speak where the Bible speaks.

    Be silent where the Bible is silent.

    All else is a matter of opinion.

    PS... your posts are way too long to be useful and engaging.
     
  5. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi NetDoc

    FIRST, I comprehend this false doctrine very well and am in the process of writing a book on it. Also, I have consulted with other experts in the field on it such as Dr. Rolf Furuli (one of the two greatest living translators of Koine Greek), Dr. V. Douglas (expert on ancient documents in Luxemburg), Dr. Jason Beduhn (ancient language and doctrine expert at Northern Arizona University), Bible scholar extraordinary Nat Price, etc.



    SECOND, Your second statement/question not understood,



    The only masquerade I see is this false doctrine from paganism masquerading as a Christian doctrine which it is not. I have written several articles on the subject which you can find at:



    Mainstream Religion Sold Out To Paganism, Details Sellout to Pagan Politicians

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209



    THIRD, Your statement,



    Seeks to make a judge out of me and I am not the judge. The judge will be Jesus (Yeshua) Christ as revealed at 1 Timothy 2:5, “For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, [himself] man, Christ Jesus,” (ASV); and at 1 Corinthians 15:22-29, “ For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming. 24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 27 For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him. 28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all. “ (ASV).



    FOURTH, Your statement,



    First I meditate in prayer every day.



    Second, I am constantly showing love to my neighbors by seeking to assist them with respect the word of God (YHWH) and God’s (YHWH’s) purposes for mankind, and to expose and warn them with respect false God (YHWH) dishonoring false doctrine.



    FIFTH, Your statement,



    Is just not correct. I thoroughly discuss various perspectives and clearly show what the scriptures say with respect each in the most intellectually honest writing style, ‘Sola Scripture’. All doctrines I discuss are thoroughly examined from the point of view of the word of God (YHWH), the Bible.



    Also, I have no aversion to learning and study each day to learn more, especially about Biblical subjects. Who else do you see writing such comprehensive articles, research articles, on various Biblical subjects? Most are only expressing opinions on them.



    SIXTH, Your statement,



    Is not nice as it implies that I am not seeing the facts, when I am. That is sort of a veiled insult, especially for a very careful independent researcher such as myself..



    SEVENTH, Your statement,



    Implies that I am NOT using the scriptures which is contrary to the facts as most of my articles, except for those based on history, are written Sola Scripture which is by use of over 50% scripture. Now open your eyes.



    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  6. LittleNipper

    LittleNipper Well-Known Member

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    John 8:54-58

    Jesus replied, "if I glorified myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your GOD, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know HIM, I know HIM. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know HIM and keep HIS Word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing MY day; he saw it and was glad."

    "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

    "I tell you the TRUTH," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!"

    Exodus 3:14


    GOD said to Moses, "I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"


    John 10:30

    "I and my Father are ONE."

    Revelations 22:12-13

    "Behold, I AM coming soon! My reward is with me, and I WILL give to everyone according to what he has done. I AM the ALPHA and the OMEGA, the first and the last, the Beginning and the End."

    Revelations 1:17-18

    When I SAW HIM, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then HE placed HIS right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I AM the First and the Last. I AM the Living One; I was dead, and behold I AM alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."


    John 14:9 "... Anyone who has seen ME has seen the Father..."
     
  7. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Gee Iris,

    You missed answering most of the questions I asked in an arrogant manner.

    You also missed the POINT of the Gospel. It's not to see how much KNOWLEDGE you can attain or how many books you can write. God has written enough. It's not to see how many people we can exasperate or estrange, though you have this down pat.
     
  8. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi LittleNipper



    FIRST, Your statement on,
    Clearly shows Jesus (Yeshua) differentiating himself from his Father, Almighty God (YHWH) and in no way claiming to be his father, to learn more, go to my exhaustive article on the subject, Discourse on John 8:58:

    http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=83.topic

    SECOND, your comment,
    Is also covered in my same article at the link in item FIRST, go there and learn the facts: THIRD, your comment,
    Now here is my answer on this scripture you fail to understand: John 10:30 I and my Father are one. (New American Standard Bible; NASB)



    This is an interesting scripture, and taken alone out of context could lead the unsteadfast to the false conclusion that they were one in body, but taken in contest, this would be seen as impossible. In John 10:29, Jesus (Yeshua) clearly showed they were two separate individuals, "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." (NASB). Clearly here was a giver, the Father (YHWH) whom Jesus (Yeshua) publically declared was "greater than all" which statement would include being greater than himself, Jesus (Yeshua). Also, there was a receiver, a distinct individual, "has given them to Me."



    This 'one' is one in purpose and this is made clear at John 17:9-11, " "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are." (NASB). Which not only shows Jesus (Yeshua) and his Father (YHWH) as being one in prupose, but also, all the true Christian followers of his Son (Yeshua).



    As previously mentioned, many try and misuse this scripture, John 10:30, to support either a Duality or a Trinity; however, it supports neither and especially not a Trinity as only two individual beings are mentioned in it.



    With respect a Trinity, Jay P. Green's, "Classic Bible Dictionary," says, "This is not itself a Biblical term, but was a term coined by Tertullian to refer to the whole concept under one word." [Classic Bible Dictionary," by Jay P. Green, page 483]. Another renown work says, "Respecting the manner in which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit make one G-d, the Scripture teaches nothing, since the subject is of such a nature as not to admit of its being explained to us." [Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature," under Trinity, on page 553]. In other words, this false God (YHWH) dishonoring false doctrine of the Trinity is a revealed doctrine of men that is foreign to the scripture (Bible). It is to be outright rejected by all who are true followers of Jesus (Yeshua). Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  9. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi NetDoc



    Your statement is WRONG,



    If you go back and check, I answered each item in the order you threw it out; therefore, all of your questions have been answered with the facts which may not be the type of answer you desire.



    Also, you should ask questions in a friendly discussion manner which you clearly failed to do, and you should thank individuals for giving time to give you well thought out and researched answers.



    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  10. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi LittleNipper



    Now I shall deal with the items you quoted from Revelation 22:12-13 which you apparently fail to understand:



    Revelation 22:12-13 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every men according to what he has done. 13 'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.'" [New American Standard Bible-Reference Edition by Moody Press, Chicago, a div. Of Moody Bible Institute; NASB-MP]



    Many misguided ones attempt to use this scripture to 'prove' that Jesus (Yeshua) always existed and is coeternal with his Father (YHWH), but it does not. Many of these same individuals turn to Acts 13:33, "that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, Thou ART MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN THEE." (NASB-MP); and Psalm 2:7, "I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee.'" (NASB-MP); whereas, in doing so they show their ignorance of the word begotten which comes from beget which the Webster's New world College Dictionary, Fourth Ed., says, "1, to be the father or sire of; procreate, 2, to bring into being; produce ["Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4 ed.", Michael Agnes, Editor in Chief, ISBN 0-02-863118-8]; as can be seen from the definition of the word, both these scriptures clearly show that Jesus (Yeshua) did NOT always exist, but was brought into being or created by his Father (YHWH). This clearly shows that Jesus (Yeshua) can NOT BE COETERNAL with his Father (YHWH) who the Bible shows always existed, Psalms 90:2, "Before the mountains were born, Or Thou didst give birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God." (NASB-MP); and Psalms 93:2, "Thy throne is established from of old; Thou art everlasting." (NASB-MP); and Jeremiah 10:10, "But the Lord is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His Indignation." (NASB-MP); and, 1 Timothy 1:17, "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." (NASB-MP). In fact the Bible at Revelation 3:14 clearly states, ""And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans F1 write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" (Authorized King James Bible; AV) that he is "the beginning of the creation of God" as does, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" (AV).



    Thus we can clearly see that those misguided ones that claim that Jesus (Yeshua) is coeternal with his Father (YHWH) are in gross error, and their use of begotten to attempt to prove this error only highlights their ignorance of the word 'begotten.'



    Now with respect, "'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.'" They overlook the difference in the use of the Alpha and the Omega when applied to the Father (YHWH) at Revelation 1:8, "'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'" (NASB-MP); Which is quite different than when applied to Jesus (Yeshua) where it says, "the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Since in Jesus' (Yeshua's) case, he was the first, that is of creation, or the beginning of creation, and also, the end of direct creation by his Father, Almighty God (YHWH). How so, his Father (YHWH) used him in the creation of all else as testified to at Colossians 1:16-17, "For in Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (NASB-MP); and John 1:10, "He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him." (NASB-MP). Whereas, with respect the Father (YHWH) the scripture clearly says, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Where 'who is' emphasized which show implicitly that he always existed, and was not a created being as was his Son, Jesus (Yeshua). Thus as can be seen, he can NOT BE COETERNAL with his Father (YHWH), nor coequal with his Father (YHWH) since he, Jesus (Yeshua) was created by His Father (YHWH). Always remember John 8:32, "and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (NASB-MP).

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Now with respect to your question on Revelation 1:17-18, go to


    Differentiate Between Father and Son
    http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=83489#post83489

    On this BB and you will learn the facts on Revelation 1:17-18.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Now with respect to your question on John 14:9, go to:

    Learn about John 14:7-10

    http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7875

    On this BB and you will learn the facts on John 14:9.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89


     
  11. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    So you think the point of the Gospel IS how much knowledge you can attain and how many books you can write? And you don't think God has written enough? Have you told him that yet?
     
  12. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi NetDoc

    Not hardly as Saul before he became a follower of Christ had a lot of knowledge, but did NOT HAVE THE TRUTH per John 8:32, "and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." But this does NOT imply as you seem to that ignorance is bliss.

    In fact Jesus (Yeshua) showed his flock would be small in number. Thus, In considering whether the mainstream groups of Christianity are correct in belief or in serious error, one needs to consider several scriptures in the new testament showing the Truth with respect what God (YHWH) has to say through inspired writers and then reflect back to how this would apply to mainstream Christianity to which most so called Christians belong. First let's consider both Luke 13:24 and Matthew 7:13-14, it is in both of these that the road followed by true believers would be narrow and cramped, Luke 13:24, "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Authorized King James Bible: AV); And Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, abroad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (AV); thereby, clearly showing few would be entering the narrow gate "which leadeth unto life." In reality, it will be difficult for even true Christians to enter as testified to at 1 Peter 4:18, "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear." (AV). In order to enter, we must have the right sort of guide, Luke 1:79, "To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace." (AV). Now, if one picks the wrong group, just because it is popular or the so called 'one to belong to in a community' and not because of Bible Truths, there is an important warning given at Matthew 15:14, "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." (AV). In fact, being with the wrong group can mean you are NOT having fellowship with the Son of God, Jesus (Yeshua) as testified to at 1 John 1:6, "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not [have] the truth." (AV). This danger is made abundantly clear at Luke 12:32 when Jesus (Yeshua) spoke of his true followers as a little flock and not a large one, "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." (AV). Simply stated, his true followers will be relatively few in number which should cause all sincere individuals to question whether mainstream religion with its vast membership is heading for the narrow gate!

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  13. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Matt 28:19-20
    19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

    Yep.... sure sounds like a select group to me.;) Keep up the good work Iris!
     
  14. kassi

    kassi Member

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    NKJV Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if any one does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not his.

    The Spirit of God or the Spirit of Christ which is it?

    1 John 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, Becuase he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

    Who is He?

    John 15:25 But the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the father will send in my Name.
    john 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to you advantage that I go away.For if I do not go away the helper will not come to you, but if I depart, I will send him to you.

    So does the Father send him or does the Son?

    John 11:25 I Am the resurrection and the Life.
    Romans 8:11 But if the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He
    who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his spirit who dwells in you.
    John 6: 63 It is the Spirit who gives life the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are Spirit and they are Life.
    John 6:32 -----My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
    John 6:48 I am the bread of life.
    John 4:24 God is Spirit and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth.

    2 Corinthians 5:19 God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.----

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God,

    Do you now see? God is the spirit and the word, Jesus in the flesh was the temple of the spirit and the word.
     
  15. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Iris,

    The Pharisees had more knowledge than you. They even had the "truth". But they too worshiped at the alter of pride and put learning above all else.

    Many, many substitute knowledge for the real truth. That truth is surrender to Jesus. You can't substitute writing long arcane posts or even longer arcane books. You must die to self so you can LIVE for others.

    It doesn't matter how much "stuff" you put between your ears. It only matters that Jesus is written on your heart.

    Until you can break away from trying to JUSTIFY everything by researching every jot and tiddle of the "Christian Law" as you have turned it into, then you can not understand the FREEDOM we now have in Jesus. Then your evangelism will turn from combative to loving. From demanding change to being someone worthy of being emulated. From being enraged by sin to being moved by sin. From seeing the very worst in everyone and everything, to being able to God in just about everyone and rejoicing in that. Once you have replaced your god of learning with the true God of Love, you will learn what it means to "Love people into the Kingdom". It's really the only way to do it in a God Honoring fashion.
     
  16. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi SOGFPP

    On Baptism, learn the facts,
     
  17. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Kassi



    You are throwing up many scriptures and it is clear from the ones you are throwing up that you definitely do NOT have an understanding of any of them since you put up John 6:32 -----My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. Also, you failed to mention from which translation you pulled it. However, I notice that most of the scriptures you mention are from the book of John. I have written a documentary on this book that covers all of these scriptures which is almost exhaustive, to learn the facts, go to:



    Documentary on the Book of John Being Anti-Trinitarian-In Multiple Parts:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97



    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  18. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi NetDoc



    Stop telling untruths and making false accusations. I have knowledge, but in no way misuse it for personal agendas as did the Pharisees of old. Also, I do NOT worship at the alter of pride as you falsely claim. Remember Colossians 3:8-9 says, “ but now do ye also put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, railing, shameful speaking out of your mouth: 9 lie not one to another; seeing that ye have put off the old man with his doings,” (American Standard Version; ASV); and John 8:44, “Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.” (ASV); and that a slanderer is separating himself from true believers as testified to at Proverbs 16:28, “A violent man enticeth his neighbour, And hath causeth him to go in a way not good.” (Young’s Literal Translation; YLT).



    Making false accusations against others as you have done is not living in harmony with what Jesus (Yeshua) taught as clearly shown at Matthew 22:36-40, “Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.” (Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible; DRCB).



    By researching the scriptures is NOT as you falsely claim,



    Apparently you have not read and/or failed to comprehend what is written at Acts 17:10-11, “And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Beroea: who when they were come thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so.” (ASV ). Here the apostle was stressing the fact that we should check all in the scriptures and commending the Beroeans for doing so just as I do today. I do NOT rest my beliefs on what I have been told, but like the Beroaens check daily to see the facts. Why do you think 2 Timothy 3:16 says, “Every scripture inspired of God [is] also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.” (ASV), and Titus 2:1 says, “But speak thou the things that become sound doctrine” (DRCB).



    Now you love to ask questions and expound false accusations, let’s see you answer intelligently the following questions:



    1. If belief in the Trinity is so important to our salvation why isn't the word "Trinity", or the concept of three being one found in the Bible?



    2. Why didn't the apostles and early Christians believe in the Trinity? (If you say they did, prove it from the Scriptures or quotations from one of the ante-Nicene Fathers before 200 AD.)





    3. Since the Trinity was so contrary to the Jewish belief in God, why didn't Jesus and his apostles expend considerable time and effort in teaching and stressing the Trinity so as to convince the Jews of the truth of it, as they did other Christian teachings?



    4. If the Trinity Doctrine was a solidly based truth, why didn't Jesus and his di sciples contradict the Shema of the Old Testament? "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." (Deut 6:4) Jesus even quoted this scripture at Mark 12:29.





    5. Why would God tell his people to have nothing to do with the Pagan nations, if those Pagan nations had the right concept and beliefs about God? (a Trinity concept of God, as part of their worship, can be traced to virtually all Pagan nations of ancient times):



    Let’s see how well you do with the proverbial shoe being on the other foot so to speak.



    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  19. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

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    Good question.
     
  20. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Because the word was invented in the third century to describe a doctrine already in place.

    This kind of presupposes its conclusion.

    Didache 7 (late first or early second century):

    The person is baptized in the name of each member of the Trinity. Here it is only specified for pouring, but the practice survives to this day as triple-immersion in the Church. Neither practice makes liturgical sense unless there are three persons of similar stature involved, and baptism is most definately liturgical.

    I'm copying the rest from my recen Same Faith debate.

    St. Ignatius Ephesians 7.2 (107 AD), found at: http://www.philthompson.net/pages/library/ignephes.html:

    St. Irenaeus Against Heresies Book III Chapter 18 Paragraph 7 (about 150 AD):

    That should be sufficient. It was definately taught.

    The reason we don't see much of anything in the first century is due in part to two things. First, the Early Church was extremely secretive about its internal teachings. To this day, the Liturgy still has "The doors! The doors!" for the barring of the doors and "Let all the catechumans depart" for when the non-baptized students leave, neither of which is still done. The deity of Christ and the Spirit were the "Mystery of Godliness" and weren't made too terribly public. Thus, you can't expect much on it. Like the Temple, and like the Mystery Religions, there are parts of it that were accessible only to the members of the community.

    Secondly, we have precious few works surviving from the first century. In the second, though, Justin Martyr attempts just that in A Dialogue With Trypho in the mid second century. Unfortunately, he doesn't know much about Judaism, so there's a good deal of misunderstanding. He's defending the concept of the divinity of Christ specifically.

    I can't think of another, but the first point is sufficient for why we don't see much, and in the second we do find it.

    The Trinity didn't exist at the time. Chrsitians firmly believe in One God, so we don't feel it contradicts the Shema.

    Because they aren't the same thing. When you look at Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon, they are three separate gods who form a kind of triumverant. That is not how Christians look at God. So, this is a bit off to say the least.

    I may ask the same question about the Old Testament, also. After all, why does God take the pagan name El? Why does the Bible contain stories copied from Babylonian paganism? The pagan mallet is a fickle mallet.
     
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