The Trinity makes no sense to me. Please Explain....

[anonymous9887]

Mate, with all humility let me tell you that these are the most layman arguments anywhere. They are correct, but dont assume that Muslims dont know this just because they quote the Shema.

All I'm saying is for trinitarians you have to address the problem directly. Don't quote verses they know how to respond to.

 

[anonymous9887]

Is that a verse in the Quran that we find difficult to deal with?

I already told you, this question cannot be answered like that in a forum. So this is why accuse me of circumventing around your question?

Alright, tell me which verse you are referring to when you say "when he first created us and we were in pre human form, before we came into the flesh?"

I can probably find it, but I will be honest I don't remember.
He says did I not make a covenant or promise with you not to worship satan. Something like that I'll find the reference.

 

[Brian Schuh]

There is an interpretation of Daniel I find interesting. The four kingdoms. Pagan Rome fell to Papal Rome. Three Germanic tribes were destroyed by the little horn (the pope) simply because they refused to accept the trinity. This makes the trinity the foundation of papal Rome.

This is a historicist interpretation. I believe in a preterist one. But nonetheless, three tribes were destroyed before the papacy could establish its power over the empire and it concerned the trinity.

The wine of Babylon (Papal Rome is Babylon) is false doctrine. The whole world will be drunk with the wine (false doctrine) of Babylon (Papal Rome.) And the foundation of this false doctrine is the teaching of the trinity.

 

[anonymous9887]

Is that a verse in the Quran that we find difficult to deal with?

I already told you, this question cannot be answered like that in a forum. So this is why accuse me of circumventing around your question?

Alright, tell me which verse you are referring to when you say "when he first created us and we were in pre human form, before we came into the flesh?"

Surah 36:60-62
It is theology and it requires a response these for me would be good answers.
1. You know what, I don't know the answer personally I'll get back to you.
2. Yes god created us with the purpose to test us in mind.
3. No god created everything good then we decided to disobey.
4. No one can no for sure.

There is only so many responses available, going around it drives me crazy. A response must be given, it is a spiritual persons responsibility to answer a question directly and if not to answer it later.

 

[anonymous9887]

I would like to know what question I went around with. If its about sects, I dont believe in sects. All man made. Even if you dont believe in divinity, at least you can agree that with one scripture completely unambiguous, you cant have sects. Muslims believe Muhammed was a prophet, we cant have sects because he was not part of a sect. Its absurd. And I gave you an answer, why not look at the evidence? Why would one care about a sect? I dont care what your sect is, I just discuss with you for what ever your point is and expect biblical evidence or scriptural evidence to prove your point.

I had a debate with a Christian pastor, probably the most prominent in my country, 50 years in the church. He quoted the bible, I gave him the Greek verbatim and said its a wrong rendition. He accused me of following Jehovahs witnesses. I told him the same thing, why would you care who I follow? Just tell me Im wrong by showing me that the evidence I bring from the bible says otherwise.

Look at this answer of yours Paul.

"They couldn't serve in the temple because they law is a shadow of things to come. This representing those that are spiritually crippled cannot approach Jehovah, but the spiritually crippled is because they choose to harden their hearts."

Are you serious Paul? How could you provide an answer like that? Does the bible say spiritually crippled?

or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.

Does damaged testicles and hunchback seem like spiritually crippled.

I will try to answer the bottom question again I will admit I don't have experience answering this question it is a new direction for me.
1. First of we need to understand what it meant when they sacrificed. They were coming into the presence of the holiest one. I'm sure you will agree god is holy. If not share your views on this point.
2. So we have imperfect humans trying to approach god here. How serious was coming before the holy one? You also had to be cleansed before approaching him, if the priest did not they would die. I'm sure you might agree, how can a puny human approach gods presence.
3. So already having a physical defect because of imperfections disqualified you. You could die for approaching the holy one.
4. Now the priest had to go through such a tedious ritual every time before approaching gods presence, as a cleansing. Was he perfect after no, but if he didn't do the ritual correctly he risked death. Also if people with imperfections approached his presence they could die.
5. Not to mention Jehovah got to select the priest and he set the standard for them.
6. So in a sense those people that were not whole could not be priest, but the priest could atone for their sin.
7. Again when we talk about Jesus, that's the Beauty his sacrifice allows us allow to approach god no matter what now. We no longer have to perform those rituals. Jesus is the priest who made the sacrifice for our sins.

 

[firedragon]

Surah 36:60-62
It is theology and it requires a response these for me would be good answers.
1. You know what, I don't know the answer personally I'll get back to you.
2. Yes god created us with the purpose to test us in mind.
3. No god created everything good then we decided to disobey.
4. No one can no for sure.

There is only so many responses available, going around it drives me crazy. A response must be given, it is a spiritual persons responsibility to answer a question directly and if not to answer it later.

Errm, I didnt think this is a multiple choice question.

36:60 “Did I not pledge to you, O Children of Adam, that you should not serve the devil (Shaithana) for he is your most ardent enemy?”
36:61 “And that you should serve Me? That is a straight path.”
36:62 “He has misled mountain loads of you. Did you not comprehend?”

The whole chapter speaks of those who believe and disbelieve and who will reside in heaven. It refers to Kafirs, those who pledge allegiance and secretly have other agendas. Those who know and understand the truth and due to the influence of As-shaithan they deviate with their worldly gains etc.

Lets look at the previous verses.

36:55 The dwellers of Paradise will be, on that Day, joyfully busy.
36:56 Both them and their spouses, they will be shaded, reclining onraised couches.
36:57 They will have fruits therein; they will have in it whatever they ask for.
36:58 Saying of: “Peace” from a Merciful Lord.

Thats how the dwellers of paradise will be. Previously the Quran in the same chapter says that no one will be wronged, they will get they deserve exactly.

Now the next verse says that criminals will be singled out.

36:59 “As for you, O criminals, you are singled out.”

Then comes the verses you quoted.

1. God pledged with humans that the devil is not to be served. The Quran says that we are all made to only take God as deity. No children, no wealth, no clergy, not Jesus, not Mary, not any prophet or anything can be deity. Only THE GOD.
2. We are to serve only the God. This is the straight path or Sirathun Musthakeemun.
3. He (Shaithana) has led a lot of you astay. Cant you understand?

What in this is the problem? Are you saying that Humans before they were born in some spirit form the were told not to follow the Shaithan? It does not say that.

Shaithan means deviant and rebellious, astray. This is an Arabic word. As an entity, he makes you go astray "Adalla".

Humans are asked to be monotheistic. Not even worship your wealth. Because that will lead you astray (Shayatheen). There is nothing about prebirth discussions between humans and God. This is addressed to mankind.

 

[anonymous9887]

Errm, I didnt think this is a multiple choice question.

36:60 “Did I not pledge to you, O Children of Adam, that you should not serve the devil (Shaithana) for he is your most ardent enemy?”
36:61 “And that you should serve Me? That is a straight path.”
36:62 “He has misled mountain loads of you. Did you not comprehend?”

The whole chapter speaks of those who believe and disbelieve and who will reside in heaven. It refers to Kafirs, those who pledge allegiance and secretly have other agendas. Those who know and understand the truth and due to the influence of As-shaithan they deviate with their worldly gains etc.

Lets look at the previous verses.

36:55 The dwellers of Paradise will be, on that Day, joyfully busy.
36:56 Both them and their spouses, they will be shaded, reclining onraised couches.
36:57 They will have fruits therein; they will have in it whatever they ask for.
36:58 Saying of: “Peace” from a Merciful Lord.

Thats how the dwellers of paradise will be. Previously the Quran in the same chapter says that no one will be wronged, they will get they deserve exactly.

Now the next verse says that criminals will be singled out.

36:59 “As for you, O criminals, you are singled out.”

Then comes the verses you quoted.

1. God pledged with humans that the devil is not to be served. The Quran says that we are all made to only take God as deity. No children, no wealth, no clergy, not Jesus, not Mary, not any prophet or anything can be deity. Only THE GOD.
2. We are to serve only the God. This is the straight path or Sirathun Musthakeemun.
3. He (Shaithana) has led a lot of you astay. Cant you understand?

What in this is the problem? Are you saying that Humans before they were born in some spirit form the were told not to follow the Shaithan? It does not say that.

Shaithan means deviant and rebellious, astray. This is an Arabic word. As an entity, he makes you go astray "Adalla".

Humans are asked to be monotheistic. Not even worship your wealth. Because that will lead you astray (Shayatheen). There is nothing about prebirth discussions between humans and God. This is addressed to mankind.

Ok so clarify this.
So this is not talking about pre human existence as some muslims claim?
The multiple choice was not for the passage but for the question, there is only so many responses one can give.

So again what was gods intention when he first created man?

 

[firedragon]

how can a puny human approach gods presence.

I think thats offensive that you said that.

I will try to answer the bottom question again I will admit I don't have experience answering this question it is a new direction for me.
1. First of we need to understand what it meant when they sacrificed. They were coming into the presence of the holiest one. I'm sure you will agree god is holy. If not share your views on this point.
2. So we have imperfect humans trying to approach god here. How serious was coming before the holy one? You also had to be cleanse before approaching him, if the priest did not they would die. I'm sure you might agree, how can a puny human approach gods presence.
3. So already having a physical defect because of imperfections disqualified you. You could did for approaching the holy one.
4. Now the priest had to go through such a tedious ritual every time before approaching gods presence, as a cleansing. Was he perfect after no, but if he didn't do the ritual correctly he risked death.
5. Not to mention Jehovah got to select the priest and he set the standard for them.
6. So in a sense those people that were not whole could not be priest, but the priest could atone for their sin.
7. Again when we talk about Jesus that's the Beauty his sacrifice allows us allow to approach god no matter what now. We no longer have to perform those rituals.

Nevertheless, I can read what the bible says. My point is that the bible doesn't agree with you. You said that God created everything good, then we (us), we messed it up. Thus what you mean is we were born disabled because of some sin we did? We are born crippled or get our testicles smashed because of original sin. Thus, we punished in this world because my ancestor sinned.

1. I think thats offensive, and unfair.
2. The bible does not say that they were born crippled because of original sin.

Let me give you what Leviticus says.

1. A priest must marry a virgin (among other things earlier). Not a widow, nor a divorcee.
2. If you marry a non-virgin and have children, if he does he defiles people with his offspring. The children are also born unclean. Why? What does the mothers virginity at marriage have anything to do with the child?
3. Then the lord tells moses to tell Aaron that none of his generations to come may offer food of his God, IF THEY HAVE DEFECTS. It doesnt even say "Become Priests". It is very clear that the previous verse established that only men can be priests, but this verse talks of all generations. Male and female.
4. If you are blind, lame (simple minded), disfigured, deformed, crippled foot or hand, hunchback or dwarf, eye defect, festering or running sores, damaged testicles are all defects. They are not even allowed to come near the curtain close to the altar.

First you said spiritually crippled people are not allowed, its obvious that the bible is not talking about spiritually crippled.
Now you say that physically disabled cannot become a priest.You say it, the bible does not.

Read Leviticus 21.

If God made everything good, why would he discriminate against an innocent human being born with a defect? What about cancer patients? There is nothing more to say. If its original sin, its absurd and bloody unfair.

You justify original sin. And that God created everything good, we screwed it up. Thus humans inherited original sin.
Well, the bible does not agree with you.

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. - Ezekiel 18:20.

And you say because of Jesus's death on the Christ we are redeemed, the bible still does not agree with you. God can redeem if you turn away from sin and repent.

“But if the wicked turn away from all the sins they have committed and keep all my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live; they will not die.None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? - Ezekiel 18:21 - 23.

 

[anonymous9887]

I think thats offensive that you said that.




Nevertheless, I can read what the bible says. My point is that the bible doesn't agree with you. You said that God created everything good, then we (us), we messed it up. Thus what you mean is we were born disabled because of some sin we did? We are born crippled or get our testicles smashed because of original sin. Thus, we punished in this world because my ancestor sinned.

1. I think thats offensive, and unfair.
2. The bible does not say that they were born crippled because of original sin.

Let me give you what Leviticus says.

1. A priest must marry a virgin (among other things earlier). Not a widow, nor a divorcee.
2. If you marry a non-virgin and have children, if he does he defiles people with his offspring. The children are also born unclean. Why? What does the mothers virginity at marriage have anything to do with the child?
3. Then the lord tells moses to tell Aaron that none of his generations to come may offer food of his God, IF THEY HAVE DEFECTS. It doesnt even say "Become Priests". It is very clear that the previous verse established that only men can be priests, but this verse talks of all generations. Male and female.
4. If you are blind, lame (simple minded), disfigured, deformed, crippled foot or hand, hunchback or dwarf, eye defect, festering or running sores, damaged testicles are all defects. They are not even allowed to come near the curtain close to the altar.

First you said spiritually crippled people are not allowed, its obvious that the bible is not talking about spiritually crippled.
Now you say that physically disabled cannot become a priest.

Read Leviticus 21.

If God made everything good, why would he discriminate against an innocent human being born with a defect? What about cancer patients? There is nothing more to say. If its original sin, its absurd and bloody unfair.

You justify original sin. And that God created everything good, we screwed it up. Thus humans inherited original sin.
Well, the bible does not agree with you.

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. - Ezekiel 18:20.

And you say because of Jesus's death on the Christ we are redeemed, the bible still does not agree with you. God can redeem if you turn away from sin and repent.

“But if the wicked turn away from all the sins they have committed and keep all my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live; they will not die.None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? - Ezekiel 18:21 - 23.

1. Well think about that what are we compared to the Almighty creator. We are dust, that's it compared to an infinite almighty being.
2. As for the testicles being smashed that's not original sin, but you would now be flawed. Now being crippled could be the result of the way we lead our lives and for sure the flesh carries rebellion and imperfection.
- you think that is unfair. Fair enough. But in reality we are here because of undeserved kindness, because Jehovah could have removed Adam and Eve immediately. Now we do know we inherit our parents illnesses in modern day explain this?
- the bible does not say directly that is why we are born that way, but I am sure god created everything good and he did not intend for us to have disabilities. Otherwise please explain why?
3. According to the bible, who is the one that does the offering?
4. God is so holy that any type of unclean thing approaching him would die. God is holy.
5. I have no problem dropping the spiritually, but the law was a shadow of the new greater picture left by our further revelation.
6. Yes I agree with you on a child will not die for the sin of the parents. Ultimately at judgement and at the resurrection we live or die because of our deeds. Because in Ezekiel it says if he turn away from sin he will continue living, but some people repented and died, it is talking about the greater picture not in the flesh.

 

[anonymous9887]

I think thats offensive that you said that.




Nevertheless, I can read what the bible says. My point is that the bible doesn't agree with you. You said that God created everything good, then we (us), we messed it up. Thus what you mean is we were born disabled because of some sin we did? We are born crippled or get our testicles smashed because of original sin. Thus, we punished in this world because my ancestor sinned.

1. I think thats offensive, and unfair.
2. The bible does not say that they were born crippled because of original sin.

Let me give you what Leviticus says.

1. A priest must marry a virgin (among other things earlier). Not a widow, nor a divorcee.
2. If you marry a non-virgin and have children, if he does he defiles people with his offspring. The children are also born unclean. Why? What does the mothers virginity at marriage have anything to do with the child?
3. Then the lord tells moses to tell Aaron that none of his generations to come may offer food of his God, IF THEY HAVE DEFECTS. It doesnt even say "Become Priests". It is very clear that the previous verse established that only men can be priests, but this verse talks of all generations. Male and female.
4. If you are blind, lame (simple minded), disfigured, deformed, crippled foot or hand, hunchback or dwarf, eye defect, festering or running sores, damaged testicles are all defects. They are not even allowed to come near the curtain close to the altar.

First you said spiritually crippled people are not allowed, its obvious that the bible is not talking about spiritually crippled.
Now you say that physically disabled cannot become a priest.You say it, the bible does not.

Read Leviticus 21.

If God made everything good, why would he discriminate against an innocent human being born with a defect? What about cancer patients? There is nothing more to say. If its original sin, its absurd and bloody unfair.

You justify original sin. And that God created everything good, we screwed it up. Thus humans inherited original sin.
Well, the bible does not agree with you.

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. - Ezekiel 18:20.

And you say because of Jesus's death on the Christ we are redeemed, the bible still does not agree with you. God can redeem if you turn away from sin and repent.

“But if the wicked turn away from all the sins they have committed and keep all my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live; they will not die.None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? - Ezekiel 18:21 - 23.

Again this is what I am talking about we have to see what the Qur'an and bible have to say in answers to these questions and determine what we are comfortable with.
Why are people born crippled?
Why do we die?
Why do we suffer?
What was gods initial purpose of creating us?

And many other questions. But when we have the bibles answer and the Qur'an ' s answer side by side and decide if that seems like something we can live with.

 

[firedragon]

1. Well think about that what are we compared to the Almighty creator. We are dust, that's it compared to an infinite almighty being.
2. As for the testicles being smashed that's not original sin, but you would now be flawed. Now being crippled could be the result of the way we lead our lives and for sure the flesh carries rebellion and imperfection.
- you think that is unfair. Fair enough. But in reality we are here because of undeserved kindness, because Jehovah could have removed Adam and Eve immediately. Now we do know we inherit our parents illnesses in modern day explain this?
- the bible does not say directly that is why we are born that way, but I am sure god created everything good and he did not intend for us to have disabilities. Otherwise please explain why?
3. According to the bible, who is the one that does the offering?
4. God is so holy that any type of unclean thing approaching him would die. God is holy.
5. I have no problem dropping the spiritually, but the law was a shadow of the new greater picture left by our further revelation.
6. Yes I agree with you on a child will not die for the sin of the parents. Ultimately at judgement and at the resurrection we live or die because of our deeds. Because in Ezekiel it says if he turn away from sin he will continue living, but some people repented and died, it is talking about the greater picture not in the flesh.

1. We are dust. But we are all dust. Crippled people cannot be a lesser dust.
2. We do sometimes inherit illnesses from the parents. That still does not make us defective. We still can be pure. We should be allowed anything that is allowed to a physically perfect human being.
I did not say God intends us to have disabilities. You are putting words into my mouth which I never said.
3. Anyone. All generations.
4. Crippled are unclean? If you think like that thats your thing mate. I just believe someone like you has written these passages. Not words of God. You believe its the word of God. Thus, you have to explain why.
5. You have to drop the spiritually crippled creation of yours Paul. Because the bible does not say spiritually crippled, it says physically crippled. Also lame people.
6. I perfectly know the biblical language my friend. I its not a physical death. This is why I said that there is no original sin. Also you can redeem yourself.

Here you go again.

You justify original sin. And that God created everything good, we screwed it up. Thus humans inherited original sin.
Well, the bible does not agree with you.

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. - Ezekiel 18:20.

And you say because of Jesus's death on the Christ we are redeemed, the bible still does not agree with you. God can redeem if you turn away from sin and repent.

“But if the wicked turn away from all the sins they have committed and keep all my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live; they will not die.None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? - Ezekiel 18:21 - 23.

Cheers.

 

[anonymous9887]

1. We are dust. But we are all dust. Crippled people cannot be a lesser dust.
2. We do sometimes inherit illnesses from the parents. That still does not make us defective. We still can be pure. We should be allowed anything that is allowed to a physically perfect human being.
I did not say God intends us to have disabilities. You are putting words into my mouth which I never said.
3. Anyone. All generations.
4. Crippled are unclean? If you think like that thats your thing mate. I just believe someone like you has written these passages. Not words of God. You believe its the word of God. Thus, you have to explain why.
5. You have to drop the spiritually crippled creation of yours Paul. Because the bible does not say spiritually crippled, it says physically crippled. Also lame people.
6. I perfectly know the biblical language my friend. I its not a physical death. This is why I said that there is no original sin. Also you can redeem yourself.

Here you go again.

You justify original sin. And that God created everything good, we screwed it up. Thus humans inherited original sin.
Well, the bible does not agree with you.

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. - Ezekiel 18:20.

And you say because of Jesus's death on the Christ we are redeemed, the bible still does not agree with you. God can redeem if you turn away from sin and repent.

“But if the wicked turn away from all the sins they have committed and keep all my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live; they will not die.None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? - Ezekiel 18:21 - 23.

Cheers.

1. Actually we are all unclean, an unclean whole person that does the ritual has done something to approach the creator. If a person that is not whole approaches the creator even with the ritual will still be incomplete. God is holy. If they do the ritual incorrectly and approach gods presence they die, the same as if a crippled approached the presence they would die.
2. That's exactly what I'm saying I didn't say god intended to, but then now you have to explain why? No matter what any scripture says, there is an answer, can we live with that answer is the question.
3. Which individual status does the offering? Not the time.
4. That's your opinion. You will also have to give a direct answer and don't avoid it. If they both sound hard to accept you have to pick one or none.
5. I'll get into this later. Let's tackle one thing at a time. When Jesus used many examples of the blind and deaf. Will get into that later though.
6. That's the problem with Islam you guys want to isolate a verse from the entirety of the bible, you cant do that. You pick and choose a book you want, then I say we'll it says this over here, then you say it's invalid. Come on now.


You happen to forget that when god spoke through ezekiel he already had a plan in place for Jesus to come down. Genesis 3:15 and many other passages since you want to quote from ezekiel. So they would also benefit for having faith in that which was to come.

God is good, but god also does not pervert justice.
1. Someone had to pay the price for our sin. We are unable to the depth was a perfect man and we are imperfect, hence unable to pay the dept.
2. Jesus voluntarily surrendered his life, thus the balance was evened out, hence Jesus highly exalted position. Jesus proved many things by his coming in the flesh.

People say that there is nothing impossible for god to do and I would disagree
1. It is impossible for god to lie
2. It is impossible for god to be wicked
3. It is impossible for god to be unwise
4. It is impossible for god to be unjust
Only because that's what he puts on himself.

 

[anonymous9887]

1. We are dust. But we are all dust. Crippled people cannot be a lesser dust.
2. We do sometimes inherit illnesses from the parents. That still does not make us defective. We still can be pure. We should be allowed anything that is allowed to a physically perfect human being.
I did not say God intends us to have disabilities. You are putting words into my mouth which I never said.
3. Anyone. All generations.
4. Crippled are unclean? If you think like that thats your thing mate. I just believe someone like you has written these passages. Not words of God. You believe its the word of God. Thus, you have to explain why.
5. You have to drop the spiritually crippled creation of yours Paul. Because the bible does not say spiritually crippled, it says physically crippled. Also lame people.
6. I perfectly know the biblical language my friend. I its not a physical death. This is why I said that there is no original sin. Also you can redeem yourself.

Here you go again.

You justify original sin. And that God created everything good, we screwed it up. Thus humans inherited original sin.
Well, the bible does not agree with you.

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. - Ezekiel 18:20.

And you say because of Jesus's death on the Christ we are redeemed, the bible still does not agree with you. God can redeem if you turn away from sin and repent.

“But if the wicked turn away from all the sins they have committed and keep all my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live; they will not die.None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? - Ezekiel 18:21 - 23.

Cheers.

I will ask you very direct questions. And to be honest there is only so many responses you can give.

Did god create everything good?

What was gods intention when he created us?

Why are people born crippled?

If it is only fair that we contain the consequences for our actions explain why our parents diseases pass on to us? That's not fair, why did God create DNA that way?

 

[firedragon]

1. Actually we are all unclean, an unclean whole person that does the ritual has done something to approach the creator. If a person that is not whole approaches the creator even with the ritual will still be incomplete. God is holy. If they do the ritual incorrectly and approach gods presence they die, the same as if a crippled approached the presence they would die.
2. That's exactly what I'm saying I didn't say god intended to, but then now you have to explain why? No matter what any scripture says, there is an answer, can we live with that answer is the question.
3. Which individual status does the offering? Not the time.
4. That's your opinion. You will also have to give a direct answer and don't avoid it. If they both sound hard to accept you have to pick one or none.
5. I'll get into this later. Let's tackle one thing at a time. When Jesus used many examples of the blind and deaf. Will get into that later though.
6. That's the problem with Islam you guys want to isolate a verse from the entirety of the bible, you cant do that. You pick and choose a book you want, then I say we'll it says this over here, then you say it's invalid. Come on now.


You happen to forget that when god spoke through ezekiel he already had a plan in place for Jesus to come down. Genesis 3:15 and many other passages since you want to quote from ezekiel. So they would also benefit for having faith in that which was to come.

God is good, but god also does not pervert justice.
1. Someone had to pay the price for our sin. We are unable to the depth was a perfect man and we are imperfect, hence unable to pay the dept.
2. Jesus voluntarily surrendered his life, thus the balance was evened out, hence Jesus highly exalted position. Jesus proved many things by his coming in the flesh.

People say that there is nothing impossible for god to do and I would disagree
1. It is impossible for god to lie
2. It is impossible for god to be wicked
3. It is impossible for god to be unwise
4. It is impossible for god to be unjust
Only because that's what he puts on himself.

Hold on. Whats with you and Islam. You said thats the problem with Islam? Cherry picking? How could that be a problem with a religion to cherry pick verses from your book. Even if I did (Which I did not), how could you say thats the problem with Islam. Absurd. And I did not say its invalid.

Again. This is what I said, you never gave an answer.

You justify original sin. And that God created everything good, we screwed it up. Thus humans inherited original sin.
Well, the bible does not agree with you.

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. - Ezekiel 18:20.

And you say because of Jesus's death on the Christ we are redeemed, the bible still does not agree with you. God can redeem if you turn away from sin and repent.

“But if the wicked turn away from all the sins they have committed and keep all my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live; they will not die.None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? - Ezekiel 18:21 - 23.

1. No original sin concept.
2. You can just turn away from sin, repent and God will save you. No need for anyone to die for your sins. Thats according to the bible. I quoted Ezekiel above. Is there a problem in understanding this question?

 

[anonymous9887]

Hold on. Whats with you and Islam. You said thats the problem with Islam? Cherry picking? How could that be a problem with a religion to cherry pick verses from your book. Even if I did (Which I did not), how could you say thats the problem with Islam. Absurd. And I did not say its invalid.

Again. This is what I said, you never gave an answer.

You justify original sin. And that God created everything good, we screwed it up. Thus humans inherited original sin.
Well, the bible does not agree with you.

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. - Ezekiel 18:20.

And you say because of Jesus's death on the Christ we are redeemed, the bible still does not agree with you. God can redeem if you turn away from sin and repent.

“But if the wicked turn away from all the sins they have committed and keep all my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live; they will not die.None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? - Ezekiel 18:21 - 23.

1. No original sin concept.
2. You can just turn away from sin, repent and God will save you. No need for anyone to die for your sins. Thats according to the bible. I quoted Ezekiel above. Is there a problem in understanding this question?

I will be honest, "all" people that I have spoken to expect to bring up one verse, and nothing else you bring up is relevant. I answered you. Also if you did not say it's invalid, then why are you picking scriptures in one book of the bible, show me that concept throughout the bible. To me you cherry picked what you liked and used it to your advantage now if you showed me 5 other scriptures in different books you would have a valid point.
Did any of the people turn away from sin? Did they die? When does the resurrection of the dead take place? at a later date after christ died for our sins.
Now please answer the questions I posed to you. On the other post.

 

[anonymous9887]

Hold on. Whats with you and Islam. You said thats the problem with Islam? Cherry picking? How could that be a problem with a religion to cherry pick verses from your book. Even if I did (Which I did not), how could you say thats the problem with Islam. Absurd. And I did not say its invalid.

Again. This is what I said, you never gave an answer.

You justify original sin. And that God created everything good, we screwed it up. Thus humans inherited original sin.
Well, the bible does not agree with you.

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. - Ezekiel 18:20.

And you say because of Jesus's death on the Christ we are redeemed, the bible still does not agree with you. God can redeem if you turn away from sin and repent.

“But if the wicked turn away from all the sins they have committed and keep all my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live; they will not die.None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? - Ezekiel 18:21 - 23.

1. No original sin concept.
2. You can just turn away from sin, repent and God will save you. No need for anyone to die for your sins. Thats according to the bible. I quoted Ezekiel above. Is there a problem in understanding this question?

Please answer the questions on post number 133. Thank you.

 

[firedragon]

God is good, but god also does not pervert justice.
1. Someone had to pay the price for our sin. We are unable to the depth was a perfect man and we are imperfect, hence unable to pay the dept.
2. Jesus voluntarily surrendered his life, thus the balance was evened out, hence Jesus highly exalted position. Jesus proved many things by his coming in the flesh.

Someone has to pay. Like the scape goat in the bible? In that case anyone can use a scape goat for atonement. No one needs Jesus to die on the cross then right? Or is it a contradiction. Or is are there two Gods? Then Marcion of Sinope was correct. See below. from Leviticus 16:10.

But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat.

But no.The bible says that we can repent and get atonement. We being imperfect and that a perfect man has to be sacrificed etc are your concepts. Not Biblical teachings. Its your wish, not Gods.

1. It is impossible for god to lie
2. It is impossible for god to be wicked
3. It is impossible for god to be unwise
4. It is impossible for god to be unjust
Only because that's what he puts on himself.

Wrong.

1. Of course God cannot lie. But the bible portrays him as its possible. - Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2. God is not wicked. God is Just. That what the Quran teaches me. - Quran 36:54. But the bible portrays him as wicked. He murders children in exodus. What do innocent children have got to do with the Quarrel between Moses and Pharaoh?

3. Of course God cannot be unwise. Thats what the Quran teaches me. 35:2 Whatever mercy God opens for the people, none can stop it. And what He holds back none can send it other than He. And He is the Noble, the Wise.

But thats not how the bible portrays God. - Have you read Ezekiel in full? How about him having to lie on one side for a year or so for the sins of the house of Israel. Number of days to represent the sins. Then on the right side. Build a clay replica of Jerusalem, or draw Jerusalem on a clay block and pretend youre under siege. Bake Barkey cakes over human excrete. Then on cow dung. The unwise things go on and on. I dont say GOd did this, this is what the bible says.

4. Again I quote 36:54 as above. God is just. But the bible portrays him otherwise. - God orders death all. Men, women and children. But save the virgins. Kill every man who has slept with another man, but save for yourself the virgins. YOu think thats just?

 

[firedragon]

I will be honest, "all" people that I have spoken to expect to bring up one verse, and nothing else you bring up is relevant. I answered you. Also if you did not say it's invalid, then why are you picking scriptures in one book of the bible, show me that concept throughout the bible. To me you cherry picked what you liked and used it to your advantage now if you showed me 5 other scriptures in different books you would have a valid point.
Did any of the people turn away from sin? Did they die? When does the resurrection of the dead take place? at a later date after christ died for our sins.
Now please answer the questions I posed to you. On the other post.

You are coming from the premise that Jesus died to redeem us. But thats not what the bible teaches. That is my point. You can collect cherry picked verses from Pauls work to justify Jesus's redemption on the cross, but thats not the theme of the bible throughout. It directly says that you can turn away from sin and God will take care of you.

Okay, as you say on the day of the reawakening. Alright. Still, you are coming from your concept that Jesus had to die for us to be saved. I say again thats not in the bible. I quoted verses that directly tells you. But you dont seem to believe in the bible.

 

[anonymous9887]

Someone has to pay. Like the scape goat in the bible? In that case anyone can use a scape goat for atonement. No one needs Jesus to die on the cross then right? Or is it a contradiction. Or is are there two Gods? Then Marcion of Sinope was correct. See below. from Leviticus 16:10.

But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat.

But no.The bible says that we can repent and get atonement. We being imperfect and that a perfect man has to be sacrificed etc are your concepts. Not Biblical teachings. Its your wish, not Gods.



Wrong.

1. Of course God cannot lie. But the bible portrays him as its possible. - Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2. God is not wicked. God is Just. That what the Quran teaches me. - Quran 36:54. But the bible portrays him as wicked. He murders children in exodus. What do innocent children have got to do with the Quarrel between Moses and Pharaoh?

3. Of course God cannot be unwise. Thats what the Quran teaches me. 35:2 Whatever mercy God opens for the people, none can stop it. And what He holds back none can send it other than He. And He is the Noble, the Wise.

But thats not how the bible portrays God. - Have you read Ezekiel in full? How about him having to lie on one side for a year or so for the sins of the house of Israel. Number of days to represent the sins. Then on the right side. Build a clay replica of Jerusalem, or draw Jerusalem on a clay block and pretend youre under siege. Bake Barkey cakes over human excrete. Then on cow dung. The unwise things go on and on. I dont say GOd did this, this is what the bible says.

4. Again I quote 36:54 as above. God is just. But the bible portrays him otherwise. - God orders death all. Men, women and children. But save the virgins. Kill every man who has slept with another man, but save for yourself the virgins. YOu think thats just?

1. As for this one, you do not know what is going in in that passage. I will explain it, but please answer my questions on post 133. Thank you.

 

[anonymous9887]

You are coming from the premise that Jesus died to redeem us. But thats not what the bible teaches. That is my point. You can collect cherry picked verses from Pauls work to justify Jesus's redemption on the cross, but thats not the theme of the bible throughout. It directly says that you can turn away from sin and God will take care of you.

Okay, as you say on the day of the reawakening. Alright. Still, you are coming from your concept that Jesus had to die for us to be saved. I say again thats not in the bible. I quoted verses that directly tells you. But you dont seem to believe in the bible.

No problem please answer the questions I asked then I will address your current responses even further.