The Trinity makes no sense to me. Please Explain....

[anonymous9887]

Last time i checked, he got exposed by Ayoob Karim.

Your crazy he was a weak debater.
There is one true arguement that destroys the trinity

 

[Jabar]

Plus to be very frank you guys are not without bias. What ever muslim scholar may say is good. You guys see zakir naik as a god and yet he was also put to shame with his own words.

Never do we see him as a god, he is a great preacher and i believe he is my favorite.

Shabir Ally also exposes the scholars you know.

He never lost a debate.

 

[anonymous9887]

Never do we see him as a god, he is a great preacher and i believe he is my favorite.

Shabir Ally also exposes the scholars you know.

He never lost a debate.

Ok. A debate is a matter of public opinion.
The reason I know muslims don't put up good debates, because most quote Deuteronomy 6:4 hear oh israel jehovah our god is one Jehovah. That show the ignorance of your understanding of the trinity, most muslims use that verse.
In order to be a good debater you must understand what the they understand and show the the fallacy of their argument. But quoting those passages shows you have no understanding of the trinity doctrine.

 

[paarsurrey]

No one says Christianity is universal. Hinduism is universal.
Jesus doesn't appear in Hindu pantheon

They say that "Catholicism"* means universal. Since you were previously a Christian; did you ever hear about it? Please
Regards

*The word catholic (with lowercase c; derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning "universal"[1][2]) comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou), meaning "on the whole", "according to the whole" or "in general", and is a combination of the Greek words κατά meaning "about" and ὅλος meaning "whole".[3][4] The word in English can mean either "including a wide variety of things; all-embracing" or "of the Roman Catholic faith" as "relating to the historic doctrine and practice of the Western Church."[5] ("Catholicos", the title used for the head of some churches in Eastern Christian traditions, is derived from the same linguistic origin.)

The term Catholic (usually written with uppercase C in English) was first used to describe the Christian Church in the early 2nd century to emphasize its universal scope. In the context of Christian ecclesiology, it has a rich history and several usages. In non-ecclesiastical use, it derives its English meaning directly from its root, and is currently used to mean the following:

• universal or of general interest;
• liberal, having broad interests, or wide sympathies;[6] or
• inclusive, inviting and containing strong evangelism.

The term has been incorporated into the name of the largest Christian communion, the Catholic Church (also called the Roman Catholic Church). However, many other Christians use the term "Catholic" (sometimes with a lower-case letter "c") to refer more broadly to the whole Christian Church or to all believers in Jesus Christ regardless of denominational affiliation.[7][8]

The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, and some Methodists believe that their churches are "Catholic" in the sense that they are in continuity with the original universal church founded by the Apostles. However, each church defines the scope of the "Catholic Church" differently. For instance, the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches each maintain that their owndenomination is identical with the original universal church, from which all other denominations broke away.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_(term)

 

[firedragon]

Also with all due respect for most charges you brought I provided an answer in plain black and white, no going around it. I had to ask you muslims multiple times the same question to get a reply. If I missed a reply it was because there was so many I didn't keep up, but an answer has been provided each time. As with all due respect I asked you questions and you went around it many times. So please let's Continue if you wish. Some reasonable answers I gave were not even acknowledged, I think that you guys would never bring yourself to admit a Christian made a nice reply, as for me only one of you muslims gave a real sensible reply without beating around the bush.

I would like to know what question I went around with. If its about sects, I dont believe in sects. All man made. Even if you dont believe in divinity, at least you can agree that with one scripture completely unambiguous, you cant have sects. Muslims believe Muhammed was a prophet, we cant have sects because he was not part of a sect. Its absurd. And I gave you an answer, why not look at the evidence? Why would one care about a sect? I dont care what your sect is, I just discuss with you for what ever your point is and expect biblical evidence or scriptural evidence to prove your point.

I had a debate with a Christian pastor, probably the most prominent in my country, 50 years in the church. He quoted the bible, I gave him the Greek verbatim and said its a wrong rendition. He accused me of following Jehovahs witnesses. I told him the same thing, why would you care who I follow? Just tell me Im wrong by showing me that the evidence I bring from the bible says otherwise.

Look at this answer of yours Paul.

"They couldn't serve in the temple because they law is a shadow of things to come. This representing those that are spiritually crippled cannot approach Jehovah, but the spiritually crippled is because they choose to harden their hearts."

Are you serious Paul? How could you provide an answer like that? Does the bible say spiritually crippled?

or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.

Does damaged testicles and hunchback seem like spiritually crippled.

 

[firedragon]

Ok. A debate is a matter of public opinion.
The reason I know muslims don't put up good debates, because most quote Deuteronomy 6:4 hear oh israel jehovah our god is one Jehovah. That show the ignorance of your understanding of the trinity, most muslims use that verse.
In order to be a good debater you must understand what the they understand and show the the fallacy of their argument. But quoting those passages shows you have no understanding of the trinity doctrine.

Muslims quote this because its there in the bible, and it preaches monotheism, against trinitarians. Whats wrong with that? How does that show that one does not have an understanding of the trinity doctrine.

• What is the trinity doctrine? And what do Muslims not understand about it while quoting the Shema?
• I would like to know Paul, why really do you not use the Hebrew name if you believe God has a name and call him Jehovah?

You generally end up only answering the last question thus I would please request you to enlighten me on both above.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

They say that "Catholicism"* means universal. Since you were previously a Christian; did you ever hear about it? Please
Regards

*The word catholic (with lowercase c; derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning "universal"[1][2]) comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou), meaning "on the whole", "according to the whole" or "in general", and is a combination of the Greek words κατά meaning "about" and ὅλος meaning "whole".[3][4] The word in English can mean either "including a wide variety of things; all-embracing" or "of the Roman Catholic faith" as "relating to the historic doctrine and practice of the Western Church."[5] ("Catholicos", the title used for the head of some churches in Eastern Christian traditions, is derived from the same linguistic origin.)

The term Catholic (usually written with uppercase C in English) was first used to describe the Christian Church in the early 2nd century to emphasize its universal scope. In the context of Christian ecclesiology, it has a rich history and several usages. In non-ecclesiastical use, it derives its English meaning directly from its root, and is currently used to mean the following:

• universal or of general interest;
• liberal, having broad interests, or wide sympathies;[6] or
• inclusive, inviting and containing strong evangelism.

The term has been incorporated into the name of the largest Christian communion, the Catholic Church (also called the Roman Catholic Church). However, many other Christians use the term "Catholic" (sometimes with a lower-case letter "c") to refer more broadly to the whole Christian Church or to all believers in Jesus Christ regardless of denominational affiliation.[7][8]

The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, and some Methodists believe that their churches are "Catholic" in the sense that they are in continuity with the original universal church founded by the Apostles. However, each church defines the scope of the "Catholic Church" differently. For instance, the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches each maintain that their owndenomination is identical with the original universal church, from which all other denominations broke away.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_(term)

Catholico in Greek means member of church. Its an address. You are a member of the churches list.

 

[paarsurrey]

Catholico in Greek means member of church. Its an address. You are a member of the churches list.

catholic (adj.)
mid-14c., "of the doctrines of the ancient Church," literally "universally accepted," from French catholique, from Church Latin catholicus "universal, general," from Greek katholikos, from phrase kath' holou "on the whole, in general," from kata "about" + genitive of holos "whole" (see safe (adj.)). Applied to the Church in Rome c. 1554, after the Reformation began. General sense of "of interest to all, universal" is from 1550s.
Catholic (n.)
"member of the Roman Catholic church," 1560s, from Catholic (adj.).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=catholic
​

Regards

 

[firedragon]

catholic (adj.)
mid-14c., "of the doctrines of the ancient Church," literally "universally accepted," from French catholique, from Church Latin catholicus "universal, general," from Greek katholikos, from phrase kath' holou "on the whole, in general," from kata "about" + genitive of holos "whole" (see safe (adj.)). Applied to the Church in Rome c. 1554, after the Reformation began. General sense of "of interest to all, universal" is from 1550s.
Catholic (n.)
"member of the Roman Catholic church," 1560s, from Catholic (adj.).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=catholic
​

Regards

Its the neuter. Catholico or rather you would like to see Katholiko. Not Katholou or Katholikos. The adjective rendering is not traditional.

Its Catholico as neuter. Its a list. A collection of names.

If you translate (καθολικό a cut and paste) Katholiko in modern terms it will be a ledger. A financial ledger.

Upto you to take what you want. We are too fast to respond rather than looking, hearing and wondering whats that all about.

Peace.

 

[anonymous9887]

Muslims quote this because its there in the bible, and it preaches monotheism, against trinitarians. Whats wrong with that? How does that show that one does not have an understanding of the trinity doctrine.

• What is the trinity doctrine? And what do Muslims not understand about it while quoting the Shema?
• I would like to know Paul, why really do you not use the Hebrew name if you believe God has a name and call him Jehovah?

You generally end up only answering the last question thus I would please request you to enlighten me on both above.

Peace.

1. First of all trinitarians believe that Jehovah is one Jehovah. The they understand Jehovah to be 3 persons, so in their mind yes there is one Jehovah. They believe in one god that exist as 3 persons. So you have to beat them with their own reasoning. For example a muslim here always is debating with me, and I can only use Jesus words from the gospels, if I use something paul said it is irrelevant, same thing with Deuteronomy 6:4, it will show you have no understanding on their doctrine.
2. Plain and simple, why do we translate names at all.
We use the English transliteration of Yahweh. We have Gods word in Hebrew so why translate Isaiah or Joshua or any name for that matter? It's because we are translating and making it easier for the person to pronounce in their own language. I Have No problem Using Yahweh. Just like if you called Jesus back in that time Jesus no one would no who you are referring to. In our organization every language has their translation of Yahweh so that each may call on god in their own language.

 

[anonymous9887]

Muslims quote this because its there in the bible, and it preaches monotheism, against trinitarians. Whats wrong with that? How does that show that one does not have an understanding of the trinity doctrine.

• What is the trinity doctrine? And what do Muslims not understand about it while quoting the Shema?
• I would like to know Paul, why really do you not use the Hebrew name if you believe God has a name and call him Jehovah?

You generally end up only answering the last question thus I would please request you to enlighten me on both above.

Peace.

You must also know they believe they are monotheist.

 

[firedragon]

1. First of all trinitarians believe that Jehovah is one Jehovah. The they understand Jehovah to be 3 persons, so in their mind yes there is one Jehovah. They believe in one god that exist as 3 persons. So you have to beat them with their own reasoning. For example a muslim here always is debating with me, and I can only use Jesus words from the gospels, if I use something paul said it is irrelevant, same thing with Deuteronomy 6:4, it will show you have no understanding on their doctrine.
2. Plain and simple, why do we translate names at all.
We use the English transliteration of Yahweh. We have Gods word in Hebrew so why translate Isaiah or Joshua or any name for that matter? It's because we are translating and making it easier for the person to pronounce in their own language. I Have No problem Using Yahweh. Just like if you called Jesus back in that time Jesus no one would no who you are referring to. In our organization every language has their translation of Yahweh so that each may call on god in their own language.

1. Your explanation is about double standards. That in no way explains why you think that Muslims who quote the Shema dont have a clue about the doctrine of trinity. No way.

2. If Gods name is Yahweh (I dont believe that for the record) why would you say Jehovah? Yes Jesus is wrong. In fact, there is no J in Hebrew. But you insert Jehovah into the NT where it does not even have YHWH. Because you believe thats Gods personal name. If you wanna translate the Tetragrammaton, it would read differently. Because it has a meaning. But you dont. You say Jehovah where it does not.

BTW, what do you think is Jesus's name. Where is it found?

 

[firedragon]

You must also know they believe they are monotheist.

Wow. Thats brand new information.

 

[anonymous9887]

I would like to know what question I went around with. If its about sects, I dont believe in sects. All man made. Even if you dont believe in divinity, at least you can agree that with one scripture completely unambiguous, you cant have sects. Muslims believe Muhammed was a prophet, we cant have sects because he was not part of a sect. Its absurd. And I gave you an answer, why not look at the evidence? Why would one care about a sect? I dont care what your sect is, I just discuss with you for what ever your point is and expect biblical evidence or scriptural evidence to prove your point.

I had a debate with a Christian pastor, probably the most prominent in my country, 50 years in the church. He quoted the bible, I gave him the Greek verbatim and said its a wrong rendition. He accused me of following Jehovahs witnesses. I told him the same thing, why would you care who I follow? Just tell me Im wrong by showing me that the evidence I bring from the bible says otherwise.

Look at this answer of yours Paul.

"They couldn't serve in the temple because they law is a shadow of things to come. This representing those that are spiritually crippled cannot approach Jehovah, but the spiritually crippled is because they choose to harden their hearts."

Are you serious Paul? How could you provide an answer like that? Does the bible say spiritually crippled?

or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.

Does damaged testicles and hunchback seem like spiritually crippled.

1. Here is the fact of the matter, do I believe in sects? No. Do I believe any inspired document from god has one true way of being interpreted yes. Is there ambiguous statements yes, Paul warns us not to go beyond what is written, so we can't be dogmatic on what we don't know.
There should only be one true form of worship.
If people choose to disagree that's on them, you ca t stop them. So with that being said if hypothetically speaking if the bible is the true word of god, would it be fair to give god the credit for the sects because of the choices man has made?

That was the answer off the top of my head I will admit, and a few other theories crossed my mind, but I'll give you my updated response, because the response has something to do with approaching the most holy.

The fact of the matter I have seen both from the bible and the Qur'an they both have somethings hard to deal with. Like I also asked a few questions I was not satisfied with. So we have to really ask ourselves and be honest, and say which problems we rather have, and maybe reason on the scriptures for a better solution.

 

[firedragon]

The fact of the matter I have seen both from the bible and the Qur'an they both have somethings hard to deal with. Like I also asked a few questions I was not satisfied with. So we have to really ask ourselves and be honest, and say which problems we rather have, and maybe reason on the scriptures for a better solution.

Could you quote me one passage at a time where you find in the Quran, a verse or verses that are hard to deal with? You can go back to the thread about Quran that you were earlier having dialogue in. I would like to know.

I agree with you on the matter of sects. You are right.

 

[anonymous9887]

1. Your explanation is about double standards. That in no way explains why you think that Muslims who quote the Shema dont have a clue about the doctrine of trinity. No way.

2. If Gods name is Yahweh (I dont believe that for the record) why would you say Jehovah? Yes Jesus is wrong. In fact, there is no J in Hebrew. But you insert Jehovah into the NT where it does not even have YHWH. Because you believe thats Gods personal name. If you wanna translate the Tetragrammaton, it would read differently. Because it has a meaning. But you dont. You say Jehovah where it does not.

BTW, what do you think is Jesus's name. Where is it found?

1. We know it does not refer to the trinity, but you have to do better than that. This is mine.

The father, son, and holy spirit= 3 equal persons that make up the being of god.
- they are all fully god
- 1 John 3:20 god knows all things. If god knows all things this means Jesus, the father, and the holy spirit know all things because they are all one god.
- Matthew 24:36 no one knows the day or the hour "only the father"
- for Jesus they have an excuse, he was both god and man, he took on the form of flesh.
- the person of the holy spirit did not take on flesh, why doesn't he know the day or the hour?

 

[anonymous9887]

Could you quote me one passage at a time where you find in the Quran, a verse or verses that are hard to deal with? You can go back to the thread about Quran that you were earlier having dialogue in. I would like to know.

I agree with you on the matter of sects. You are right.

Ok I will ask you again. With what purpose did god create us when he first created us and we were in pre human form, before we came into the flesh?

 

[firedragon]

1. We know it does not refer to the trinity, but you have to do better than that. This is mine.

The father, son, and holy spirit= 3 equal persons that make up the being of god.
- they are all fully god
- 1 John 3:20 god knows all things. If god knows all things this means Jesus, the father, and the holy spirit know all things because they are all one god.
- Matthew 24:36 no one knows the day or the hour "only the father"
- for Jesus they have an excuse, he was both god and man, he took on the form of flesh.
- the person of the holy spirit did not take on flesh, why doesn't he know the day or the hour?

Mate, with all humility let me tell you that these are the most layman arguments anywhere. They are correct, but dont assume that Muslims dont know this just because they quote the Shema.

 

[firedragon]

Ok I will ask you again. With what purpose did god create us when he first created us and we were in pre human form, before we came into the flesh?

Is that a verse in the Quran that we find difficult to deal with?

I already told you, this question cannot be answered like that in a forum. So this is why accuse me of circumventing around your question?

Alright, tell me which verse you are referring to when you say "when he first created us and we were in pre human form, before we came into the flesh?"

 

[Onyx]

It doesn't make sense to me either:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Does Almighty God suffer from a multiple personality disorder? The audaciousness!