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The Trinity makes no sense to me. Please Explain....

Hi
I have never really understood the Trinity, and I was just wondering if anyone here did, and if so if they could explain why some people think that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one but not the same, and if you could explain so without saying it's a mystery of God's nature etc. - I already know it's a bit of a mystery and I am trying to understand it a bit more. Thanks
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I've heard it explained to me with a metaphor of water: it has three forms, but all are still water.

In Hinduism, there's a very similar concept in the sense of all gods ultimately being the same God in different forms and roles. In addition, the God Krishna had one-thousand wives, and separated himself into one thousand Krishnas for each one of them.

So, the Trinitarian Christian God can easily separate himself into three "beings" at the same time, each of whom have separate roles and semi-separate identities, but still God.

(Trinitarian Christians, feel free to correct me if my explanation is not accurate.)

However, I wouldn't call it pure monotheism.
 
'However, I wouldn't call it pure monotheism.'
I agree. This kind of contradicts the general concept of Trinitarian Christianity being Monotheist which is against the commandment 'You shall have no other Gods before me' - Exodus 20:3/Deuteronomy 5:7.
Most Christians who believe in the Trinity seem to ignore this, even the head of R.E at my school (she is Catholic), which is a bit annoying and then people will usually get kind of confused while trying to explain it.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Just thinking freely here. I don't believe in the trinity or Christianity, but... perhaps there are analogies that could work. How about the three colors (Red, Green, Blue) that's used for a color monitor? You only need these three basic colors to create a large palette. Together with the luminosity, there's 65,000 colors in the palette (or something like that). That's a way of seeing three in one, perhaps?
 
Just thinking freely here. I don't believe in the trinity or Christianity, but... perhaps there are analogies that could work. How about the three colors (Red, Green, Blue) that's used for a color monitor? You only need these three basic colors to create a large palette. Together with the luminosity, there's 65,000 colors in the palette (or something like that). That's a way of seeing three in one, perhaps?
Maybe, but you mix the colours to make completely new colours, which are only that colour and not any other despite being created by one of the basic colours...
I think I get what you were trying to say, but I'm not sure it works the same way with the Trinity though...
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
'However, I wouldn't call it pure monotheism.'
I agree. This kind of contradicts the general concept of Trinitarian Christianity being Monotheist which is against the commandment 'You shall have no other Gods before me' - Exodus 20:3/Deuteronomy 5:7.
Most Christians who believe in the Trinity seem to ignore this, even the head of R.E at my school (she is Catholic), which is a bit annoying and then people will usually get kind of confused while trying to explain it.

It still follows that commandment, since it's still the same God.

It's not pure monotheism, but it's not pure polytheism, either.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit do not progress independently. They are all for the same design always.

Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. John 5:19

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. John 6:38

John 12:49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

John 12:50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
 
its simple, its like multiple personalities within the same being. the personalities can manifest themselves into separate entities.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I hope you don't mind if I adapt an explanation for the Trinity I've become fond of using--it's such a pain to rewrite every time...

This is from Metropolitan Kallistos Ware’s book “The Orthodox Way.” (pp. 29-31)
The central and decisive affirmation in the Creed is that Jesus Christ is “true God from true God”, “one in essence” or “consubstantial” (homoousios) with God the Father. In other words, Jesus Christ is equal to God the Father; he is God in the same sense that the Father is God, and yet they are not two Gods but one. Developing this teaching, the Greek Fathers of the later fourth century said the same about the Holy Spirit; he is likewise truly God, “one in essence with the Faher and the Son. But although Father, Son and Spirit are one single God, yet each of them is from all eternity a person, a distinct centre of conscious selfhood. God the Trinity is thus to be described as “three persons in one essence”. There is eternally in God true unity, combined with genuinely personal differentiation: the term “essence”, substance” or “being” (ousia) indicates the unity, and the term “person” (hypostasis, prosopon) indicates the differentiation. Let us try to understand what is signified by this somewhat baffling language, for the dogma of the Holy Trinity is vital to our own salvation.
Father, Son and Spirit are one in essence, not merely in the sense that all three are examples of the same group or general class, but in the sense that they form a single, unique, specific reality. There is in this respect an important difference between the sense in which the three divine persons are one, and the sense in three human persons may be termed one. Three human persons, Peter, James and John, belong to the same general class “man.” Yet, however closely they co-operate together, each retains his own will and his own energy, acting by virtue of his own separate power of initiative. In short, they are three men and not one man. But in the case of the three persons of the Trinity, such is not the case. There is distinction, but never separation. Father, Son and Spirit—so the saints affirm, following the testimony of Scripture—have only one will and not three, only one energy and not three. None of the three ever acts separately, apart from the other two. They are not three Gods, but one God.
Yet, although the three persons never act apart from each other, there is in God genuine diversity as well as specific unity. In our experience of God at work within our life, while we find that the three are always acting together, yet we know that each is acting within us in a different manner. We experience God as three-in-one, and we believe that this threefold differentiation in God’s outward action reflects a threefold differentiation in his inner life. The distinction between the three persons is to be regarded as an eternal distinction existing within the nature of God himself; it does not apply merely to his exterior activity in the world. Father, Son and Spirit are not just “modes” or “moods” of the Divinity, not just masks which God assumes for a time in his dealings with creation and then lays aside. They are on the contrary three coequal and coeternal persons. A human father is older than his child, but when speaking of God as “Father” and “Son” we are not to interpret the terms in this literal sense. We affirm of the Son “There was never a time when he was not”. And the same is said of the Spirit.
. . .Each possesses, not one third of the Godhead, but the entire Godhead in its totality; yet each lives and is this one Godhead in his own distinctive and personal way.

Elsewhere in the book, the Metropolitan speaks of the relationship between various members of the Trinity. I will summarize it as follows:
-The Father is the source(Greek: arche) of the Trinity, and so is in a certain sense "greater" than the Son and Spirit. Not by virtue of being more God than the other two, but by virtue of being the source of the Trinity. It is from Him that the Son is begotten and it is from Him that the Holy Spirit proceeds.
-The Son is eternally begotten of the Father, and is also called the "Logos" or "Word" of the Father. The traditional interpretation of this is that the Son is the Word by which God spoke the world into being. The Son is not a created being, for as it says in John 1:2-3, "He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."
-The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, or from the Father THROUGH the Son (The Latin filioque, "proceeds from the Father AND the Son", is not original and toes the line of heresy). Yet the Holy Spirit is not subordinate to the Father or the Son. As for how "being begotten" is different from "proceeding from," we cannot say.

When speaking of God's essence, we Trinitarians do not refer to "essence" as a general class or nature; for example, a human nature. Rather, we speak of God's Essence as signifying "the whole God as he is in himself," as Ware said. This shows an essence that is unique to God alone; for instance, I am different from you in how I am within myself, and you are different from me in how you are in yourself.

I've heard it explained to me with a metaphor of water: it has three forms, but all are still water.

In Hinduism, there's a very similar concept in the sense of all gods ultimately being the same God in different forms and roles. In addition, the God Krishna had one-thousand wives, and separated himself into one thousand Krishnas for each one of them.

So, the Trinitarian Christian God can easily separate himself into three "beings" at the same time, each of whom have separate roles and semi-separate identities, but still God.

(Trinitarian Christians, feel free to correct me if my explanation is not accurate.)

However, I wouldn't call it pure monotheism.
The metaphor is a good one, and it's quite popular.

However, it is in fact pure monotheism, since it is still only one God.

god is god, jesus is god in human form, the holy spirit is god and jesus.
No, the Holy Spirit is separate from the Father and Son. The Spirit is a Person in His own right.

its simple, its like multiple personalities within the same being. the personalities can manifest themselves into separate entities.
I don't think this is an accurate description. If you have multiple personalities within one entity, then they're all simply different facets of the same person. They are three distinct Persons that make up one God.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Hi
I have never really understood the Trinity, and I was just wondering if anyone here did, and if so if they could explain why some people think that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one but not the same, and if you could explain so without saying it's a mystery of God's nature etc. - I already know it's a bit of a mystery and I am trying to understand it a bit more. Thanks

To really gain a better understanding of the Trinity, one probably will need to do comprehensive research on the subject. There are volumes written about the Doctrine of the Trinity. So it is something that is more broad than a forum like this really can answer. However, a basic sense can be gained.

To start off though, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. Just like humans are believed (by some) to have a spirit that partially makes up who they are, God is also said to have a spirit. It is still God, but just a different part of God.

Here, we get into the idea of two basic natures of God. That is first, a transcendent nature, and second, and immanent nature. While God appears to become more distant, at the same time, we gain the Spirit (or Wisdom, etc) who becomes closer to humans.

With Jesus, the idea is that God became human. That Jesus was the incarnation of God, or God in human form. Jesus is thus God, but God who becomes human.

With this, each entity is God, but a different form. One is the human form, another is the spirit form, and then there is the transcendent form.

One can see this somewhat in the ying-yang symbol. On one hand, you have two separate colors. But within the black, you have a spot of white, and within the white, you have a spot of black. In the same way, there is some of the father in the son, and some of the son in the father. They are distinct, but they also include part of the other. Around the outside though, there is a solid color, that holds it all together. One can see this as the Spirit, as it is the entity that combines the two. Here, we have one symbol, yet it is composed of separate pieces. By putting all the pieces together, you get the whole, which is one.

This is obviously a simple explanation, but it gets at the idea.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Hi
I have never really understood the Trinity, and I was just wondering if anyone here did, and if so if they could explain why some people think that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one but not the same, and if you could explain so without saying it's a mystery of God's nature etc. - I already know it's a bit of a mystery and I am trying to understand it a bit more. Thanks

Welcome to RF. I believe youu are in luck because I never fail to answer this question.

Father is The Holy Spirit
Son is the Holy Spirit in a body
Paraclete is The holy Spirit in the bodies of believers
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi
I have never really understood the Trinity, and I was just wondering if anyone here did, and if so if they could explain why some people think that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one but not the same, and if you could explain so without saying it's a mystery of God's nature etc. - I already know it's a bit of a mystery and I am trying to understand it a bit more. Thanks

Neither the word Trinity nor the idea of 3 coequal, co-eternal persons in one God are found in the Bible. Trinities of gods were commonly worshipped in pagan religions, and apostate "Christians" adopted this false teaching in the 4th Century from pagan philosophies. Little wonder, in my opinion, why you would be confused by this doctrine.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Neither the word Trinity nor the idea of 3 coequal, co-eternal persons in one God are found in the Bible. Trinities of gods were commonly worshipped in pagan religions, and apostate "Christians" adopted this false teaching in the 4th Century from pagan philosophies. Little wonder, in my opinion, why you would be confused by this doctrine.

Actually, there is really no equivalent to the Trinity in any other religion. Yes, different religions did have sets of gods, and some main gods, but it never was just three gods.

As for the idea being in the Bible, it has its foundations there. In Judaism of the time, there was a binitarian view of God. This isn't debated much. Paul then takes that idea and begins to put Jesus in the equation by placing ideas attached to Wisdom on him.
 
With Jesus, the idea is that God became human. That Jesus was the incarnation of God, or God in human form. Jesus is thus God, but God who becomes human.

With this, each entity is God, but a different form. One is the human form, another is the spirit form, and then there is the transcendent form.
Why would God Pray to himself? If Jesus was God why would he have the need to pray to himself, who he would then supposedly call Father? I don't understand that concept...

No, the Holy Spirit is separate from the Father and Son. The Spirit is a Person in His own right.

??? How can the spirit be it's own 'person' in it's own right and separate to God and Jesus, yet remain part of the Trinity?
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
??? How can the spirit be it's own 'person' in it's own right and separate to God and Jesus, yet remain part of the Trinity?
The Spirit still has the same Divine Essence as Father and Son, and proceeds from the Father, so He is still one of the Trinity, and still one and the same God. I was correcting the misguided idea that the Holy Spirit is simply the "power" or "action" of the Father and the Son.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
The Spirit still has the same Divine Essence as Father and Son, and proceeds from the Father, so He is still one of the Trinity, and still one and the same God. I was correcting the misguided idea that the Holy Spirit is simply the "power" or "action" of the Father and the Son.

The Holy Spirit is not separate from either the Father or the Son, as another being. The Holy Spirit is the Father. From the Holy Spirit, Jesus' Spirit (saying Abba, Father) was the First Son formed. And with this Spirit/Power - still being Holy Spirit (retaining almost all initial Power/knowledge, etc.), was everything else created.

Remember Jesus prayed that He be in us, as His Father is in Him. Really Similar to reproduction save for two beings procreating. The Father, retaining everything, gives. Only the Father retains all Power and Will.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Why would God Pray to himself? If Jesus was God why would he have the need to pray to himself, who he would then supposedly call Father? I don't understand that concept...
No one understands this concept, which is why even the most vehemently Trinitarian apologetic sites say that it's "beyond the ability for the human mind to comprehend".

Also you may notice that virtually every attempt to explain the Trinity nonetheless falls into Modalism and is not what the classical Trinity actually teaches. Although what exactly the Classical Trinity states is not exactly too clear either, with vague words like "person" and "essence" that have no objective scriptural let alone secular definition according to their own standards.

Many Trinitarians are actually Modalists | SharperIron





??? How can the spirit be it's own 'person' in it's own right and separate to God and Jesus, yet remain part of the Trinity?
It can't. Thus the words "person" and 'essence" become malleable Semantic tools to conform whatever attempt to explain the unexplainable concept.

Essentially the scriptures define what is basically Arianism. It helps to understand Philo's "Logos Theology" which explains what appears to be the traditional Jewish view of "Wisdom" being the firstborn Created soul, the incarnation of God's Wisdom itself, though not God Himself.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Here, we get into the idea of two basic natures of God. That is first, a transcendent nature, and second, and immanent nature. While God appears to become more distant, at the same time, we gain the Spirit (or Wisdom, etc) who becomes closer to humans.
What you have just described here is panentheism. This is distinct from traditional theism, and what many feel that the doctrine of the Trinity was actually more about, which later become your more traditional theism, somehow or another. I agree with the view that it is more panentheistic than theistic.

With Jesus, the idea is that God became human. That Jesus was the incarnation of God, or God in human form. Jesus is thus God, but God who becomes human.

With this, each entity is God, but a different form. One is the human form, another is the spirit form, and then there is the transcendent form.
Now what you are describing is modalistic monarchianism. This was taught in early church history by Sabellius. In essence it says that there was one God in three forms, or three manifestation. Modern expressions of this say God was the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, the Holy Spirit in emanation, or in the church. Three modes of being, not three persons which describes the Trinity.

Congratulations, you're a heretic - according to the Church. :) An honorable distinction, IMO.
 
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