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Featured The Trinity in Luke 2:40-56

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by rrobs, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    So in one gospel Mary is a virgin and in another she is just a young woman. How do we decide?
     
  2. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Well, since they’re two completely different stories, there’s no reason to “decide.” There’s no real reason to “make” them reconcile. They just are what they are. It’s a contradiction — very much like the two different genealogies in each gospel. Remember, this isn’t history; it’s storytelling.
     
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    If I told you you were wrong, would you be offended at that?
    You are wrong. I would not be offended.
    Are you offended?
    I did not say it to offend you.
    I will try to keep in mind that some persons don't like people to say their belief is wrong. I am not sure if it will work though. In fact thinking on it, I don't see how it will work.
    If I believe your belief is not scriptural, I may well tell you.
    Why not try to show me that it isn't, instead of taking offense?

    Do you know how many times I have been told that I am wrong, and Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong?
    I didn't get offended. Do you know why?
    Because I believe everyone has a belief, and they will not always agree with me, and will sometimes express those words.

    Do you know how many times I have been told that what I believe and teach, is not scriptural?
    I can't even count the number on my fingers and toes.
    I didn't get offended, but more than that, I simply ask, "Show me where I am wrong." I walked away from every one of those conversations smiling, after shaking that person's hand - unless they get angry, and would rather storm in their house and slam their door. That may happen to us one or two times.

    You see Katzpur, you don't know me, or most Jehovah's Witnesses. Most are not thinned-skin.
    Sometimes we may think that everyone fits under the same umbrella, and sometimes we may fit persons with our own personality, but we are wrong when we do that.
    However, I'm different - not because I am better than you, or anyone else, nor do I feel that way.
    I may feel I can win a scriptural argument with you, but don't we all feel that way....most of us?

    Even now the way I see you, is no different from how I saw you from our first conversation.
    I am not angry with you.
    Jehovah's Witnesses are well trained, to deal with people on a daily basis, so they are not easily ruffled.
    In fact I think they understand people better than most people.

    However I have spoken to Mormon missionaries, and I think that if any group can compare to Jehovah's Witnesses, when it comes to dealing with people - even when they are angry and agressive, it would be Mormons - I can only speak for the men though, because they are the ones that receive training to preach, and I think they are taught well.
    I have had many friendly endings, even though we didn't agree.

    We won't always agree, but we can reason, to see if we can agree, even if we don't agree entirely.
    We agree on some things, right?
    Who knows if we won't agree some time in the future?
    [​IMG]
     
  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    There you go.
    That's all I was asking.
    So can we reason on it? By understanding how you view it, and why, it will help me to get your point of view, even if mine differs from yours.
    I am not trying to change your point of view. Simply just reasoning.
    Is that okay? If you prefer not to, that's okay.

    Why were the disciples troubled?
    They though they were seeing a spirit.
    What does that mean to you?
    Do you believe that Jesus' body was spirit as well as flesh?
    Could you explain.
     
  5. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I'm going to have to think on that. Maybe I'm very radically non trinitarian. I'm ill. Maybe tomorrow?
     
  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I already did!
     
  7. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Sure. Take it easy.
     
  8. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Right.

    It means they thought they were seeing a spirit. Duh.

    I believe -- as the Bible clearly states -- that He had a body of flesh and bones. His spirit, which He had commended into His Father's hands just before He died, had returned to His body, giving it new life, which is, incidentally, what it means to be resurrected. Resurrect: (transitive verb) to restore (a dead person) to life, to raise from the dead.

    Do you believe that He had a body of flesh and bones?
    If you do, what are we arguing about?
    If you don't, why not? Was He lying to His Apostles?

    Yes, we do.

    More than likely, we will.
     
  9. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Hello, Katzpur!

    I haven't really been following this, between you and @nPeace.
    But maybe this will help with the issue: remember when Abraham had three visitors in Genesis 18?

    They too were spirits, representing Yahweh. But they appeared as humans. Vs.8 says they even ate the food that Abraham provided! So angels can materialize as humans! (But not demons [wicked angels - Jude 1:6], apparently....after abusing that ability as related @ Genesis 6:1-4, theyve [thankfully for us] been kept from doing so fully , only able to appear as apparitions, what the Apostles thought they saw.)

    The same with Jesus....He wanted to calm their fears, not scare them. But that probably would have happened, if He had said, 'Yeah, I'm a spirit.' They might've even fled! Of course, after reinforcing the idea that it was really Him, what did He do? He disappeared! Several times. Can flesh and blood do that?

    Scriptural backing for Jesus resurrected back to being a spirit, is 1 Peter 3:18 and 1 Corinthians 15:45.

    There are other Scriptures to consider.

    I hope this post doesn't seem incoherent, I'm not good at posting in depth replies!
     
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  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Thanks.
    So when the scriptures say, he was raised in the spirit, and he became a life giving spirit, do you see this as applying to... how do you understand this?
     
  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I'm sorry, but I don't buy that. I don't believe that Jesus would have lied to them in order not to scare them. You're making assumptions about what you think they would have done. In other words, you're reading into what the scriptures actually say what you think they probably meant to say. Jesus' Apostles felt the wounds in His hands and feet. They realized that He had actually been resurrected. He reinforced the idea that it was really Him because it was!

    Okay, let's start by examining your choice of words. The phrase "flesh and blood" is found seven times in the Bible (at least in the KJV). In every single solitary case, it is used as a metaphor meaning "mortal man." Go back and check them for yourself. There is only once in the Bible where the phrase"flesh and bones" is used, and in this instance it's not used as a metaphor but as a description of Jesus' physical makeup, His corporeality.

    As to whether "flesh and blood" can disappear, well... no. Because "flesh and blood" means "a human being" or "mortal man." But the Son of God could disappear, even though He was corporeal. Being able to do miraculous things was kind of part of His nature as the Son of God. ;)

    I don't agree. I don't believe that to be "quickened by the spirit" means to become a being of spirit alone. After all, a spirit is nothing more than a life force. Just before Jesus died, He commended His spirit into His Father's hands. When He was resurrected, that same spirit brought new life to His body. It is the spirit alone that gives life. Without it, the physical body is nothing but a shell. With it, the physical body becomes a living soul.

    See, I'll tell you what I think the real issue is here. Correct me if I'm wrong, because if there's one thing I don't ever want to do, it's put words in people's mouths or try to tell them what they believe. It is my understanding, though, that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the spirit dies along with the body when a person is said to have "died." (Or maybe it would be more accurate to say that the spirit loses consciousness?) At any rate, I think you believe that when Jesus was resurrected, it was only His spirit which returned to life and not His body. What Mormons believe is that life begins when a spirit enters into a physical body, giving it life. In other words, it becomes "a living soul." When that spirit leaves the physical body, the body dies. The spirit, however, does not die but remains a cognizant entity awaiting the resurrection. When the spirit re-enters the body, the body lives again. It is resurrected. Now, as long as we disagree on this very important point, I think we're going to disagree on all related points -- one of them being whether Jesus was physically resurrected or not. Our two religions appear to have a different concept of what happens at death and what resurrection actually is.

    You did just fine. Thanks for your response.
     
    #271 Katzpur, Sep 10, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    There is only one way a person can be alive, according to my church's doctrine, and that is through a life-giving spirit residing within it. I believe that when Jesus died, His spirit returned to God for a period of three days, during which time His body lay in the tomb. (I don't know what possible use God would have for a dead spirit, incidentally.) When He was raised from the dead, it was because His spirit re-entered His body, restoring it to life -- but this time to immortal life. Furthermore, because of this miraculous event, we all will be resurrected. In that sense, His spirit truly is life-giving.
     
    #272 Katzpur, Sep 10, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Okay, thanks.
    So do spirits in heaven - angels - have, or require spirit in this same sense, according to your/Mormon belief.
     
  14. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I'm sympathetic to Mormons and believe a lot of what they do. However, I will not be Mormon again and have moved on. After thinking about the Atonement, I realize that it seems spiritually inconsistent to me. I'm meditating on how we got from the place Abraham occupied to bearing the burden of Original sin that some carry? Some make their life a guilt ridden hell, and for them, I have the greatest compassion.

    I saw something; a path not for many; in Matt. 5:29-30. Most of us are heavily invested in the cares of this life, and it becomes clear that living out the provisions of Matt 5 is an almost unattainable goal for most, except they sacrifice. Matt 19:12 further illuminates the narrow path that is not often taken, and seldom willingly. It was common practice in the warrings of the Middle East, to castrate the sons of royalty and put them in service of the conquering Kings. In Matt 19:12 Jesus was actually referring back to those practices and to Isaiah 56:4-5, where God makes it clear that for those, it is not utterly lost, that they are not utterly barren.

    So, in the midst of my own failure and loss, God, my Creator and Master provided a path for those who would follow.

    In my opinion, many Mormons more fully serve the Creator than most other peoples. It is the "Deep Doctrines" that I have issue with.
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I only have a few minutes so I'll just conclude.

    The scriptures say... (I'm using NWT, but it really doesn't matter)
    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.
    1 Corinthians 15:35-49
    35 Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?”
    36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies.
    37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed;
    38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body.
    39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, there is another flesh of cattle, another flesh of birds, and another of fish
    40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.
    41 The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, one star differs from another star in glory.
    42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption.
    43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power.
    44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.
    45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
    46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual.
    47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven.
    48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly.
    49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.

    To me there is really no debating these scriptures on the question of what body Jesus was raised with.
    These scriptures are clear cut and direct.

    Jesus was raised up a spiritual body - one out of only which there are two - Physical or spiritual.
    He was put to death in one state - physical, or fleshly, and raised to another state - spiritual, or spirit body.

    So for one to say otherwise, I would say that would seem one is presenting an unscrriptural idea.
    This evidently is a case where it is either, or. Either he was raised with a spirit body, or a fleshly body.
    To me, it is the same, as with the debate in this thread, and the one we were having with @74x12 . Either God almighty became human, and died, or not. Either Jesus is God almighty, or he is not. Same with the soul - Either the soul is immortal or it is not. Hellfire - Either Hell is a place of eternal torment, or it is not. Resurrection Either there is resurrection, or there is not.
    It really is a matter of drawing a line between truth or false, in other words the truth and the lie - God's word, or Satan's.

    This is why nPeace may be a bit... well not a bit, but at the same time, not too much either, but reasonably... reasonably passionate about these debates. ;)

    For me, I can't see myself speaking any less passionate. I call it love. Love for truth, and you... I guess.
    I like Paul's example. He was a man who liked to reason.
    Acts 17:2, 3
    2 So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving by references . . .
    That's what I try to do - reason from the scriptures.

    So let's reason.
    Since the scriptures are clear that Jesus was raised a spirit body, then it means that at Luke 24:36-43 Jesus has a spiritual body when he appears to them, and we therefore need to understand it as @Hockeycowboy suggested.

    I think there are a few things worth considering from this text, that to shows Jesus materialized various bodies.
    :bssquare:Jesus appeared and disappeared, just as spirits do. The angels did that.
    :bssquare:Jesus materialized in different bodies. The angels did that.
    :bssquare:The disciples were frightened because they supposed they were seeing a spirit. They obviously didn't know what to make of the appearance. Jesus wanted them to know he was risen, rather than have them confused, so he gave them some evidence - using a body that had no blood, of course.
    This reminds me of when they saw Jesus walking on the water, and thought they were seeing an apparition.
    (Matthew 14:26, 27) and Jesus reassured them that it was him.
    Understandably, humans don't fully understand the spirit realm, and the disciples were learning new things, and wouldn't understand everything, so Jesus dealt with them on that level.

    At this point I will end here and let you continue the conversation with Hockeycowboy.
    Peace.
     
  16. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I can understand and appreciate that.

    Okay, here's my understanding of LDS doctrine with regards to the Atonement: As you undoubtedly already know, we do not believe in the doctrine or Original Sin, which essentially makes us "sinners" from the moment we draw our first breath. It is because we are believed by most Christians to be born as sinners that so many of them practice infant baptism. Since sin is the voluntary transgression of a religious law or moral principle, it is impossible for a person to sin until he reaches the age at which he is capable of understanding the difference between right and wrong. Prior to that time, one does not and, in fact, cannot sin. Now we do believe, and very strongly so, that we are so greatly predisposed to being sinful that by the time we are capable of discerning between right and wrong, we are not going to be able to continually withstand the temptation to sin; we will at some point -- and perhaps at many points -- in our lives, succumb to the pull of sin. As The Book of Mormon says, "the natural man is an enemy to God." I guess the main difference between us and the rest of the Christian world is that we don't believe a person is a sinner until he sins and we don't believe he can sin without being able to discern between right and wrong.

    You are right in saying that some make their life a "guilt-ridden hell." That's so sad. One of the best books I have ever read on that subject is called "Believing Christ." It's written by Stephen E. Robinson, an LDS scholar. I know you're not LDS any more and never will be, but you could buy a used copy that book on Amazon for under $2. I bet you'd love it!

    I love the quote from Isaiah. I had never really paid the slightest bit of attention to it until you mentioned it. I'm so glad you did, because I think that it applies to so many conditions other than the one it specifically names. I truly believe God's love for us transcends all of our physical and spiritual shortcomings and that, as one LDS General Authority put it, "God’s love is complete and without limit for you and for all mankind. He is perfectly just and merciful."

    I'll tell you what I think. I think that had your personal situation been different, you wouldn't even have a problem with what you call the "Deep Doctrines." I think you were treated poorly and unfairly by people who were in a position to have been able to have a very negative impact on your life. This is not a statement of fact; it's just how I perceive it, based on what you have shared with me.
     
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  17. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I can see where you're coming from, but I believe you have misinterpreted what the scriptures are saying. (I wish you could give me the same benefit of the doubt, rather than just insist that my beliefs are "un-scriptural." I suspect, though, that you've probably been taught that interpretations that differ from yours are "un-scriptural." That's how you've been conditioned to look at it.)

    I would say that, in this context, the word "physical" denotes "mortal" and the word "spiritual" denotes "immortal." A physical/mortal body is sustained and kept alive by the blood flowing through it. That blood receives nutrients from the food we eat and the air we breathe. A spiritual/immortal body is sustained solely through spirit. It no longer requires any of the things a mortal body does to keep it alive. A physical/mortal body cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, but a spiritual/immortal body can. This absolutely does not mean that a spiritual/immortal body cannot be corporeal. Jesus was resurrected with a corporeal body as He absolutely and most definitely showed His Apostles.

    I agree to some extent, but I don't see things in quite as black and white terms as you do. I think that making a genuine attempt to see where other people are coming from shows far more love than just dismissing their beliefs as "un-scriptural." You see, I believe my doctrines are 100% scriptural, even though I may interpret the scriptures differently than you do. There are nuances to pretty much every term used by people of faith, and I believe that exploring how those nuances affect our way of seeing things is critical -- unless all we're trying to do is "out-debate" the other guy. I can see why you believe as you do and acknowledge that certain passages of scripture could be interpreted as you are interpreting them, and I can do all of this without compromising my own beliefs.
     
    #277 Katzpur, Sep 11, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
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  18. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    It's the Hebrew term for the holy Spirit. Who is God. You should reconsider who Jesus is.
     
  19. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Thank you for your care.
     
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  20. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    NOPE, not conforming to your idea of what is proper, forget it.
     
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