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The Trinity, considering it's biblical, why then......

firedragon

Veteran Member
Given the premise that the Bible is completely propagating the Trinity (if you believe it or not take it as a hypothetical premise for the sake of this question) why is it that the early church took almost 4 centuries to come up with the trinity as clearly stipulated as in the Athanasian Creed?

When this question or any similar question is asked what you see mostly is people trying to prove Jesus is God and quote the Bible. The question is not that and any objective person would be able to see it. Also, this question is asked with the premise given that the Bible is fully Trinitarian purely to be precise in the question.

"Qualis Pater, talis Filius, talis (et) Spiritus Sanctus.- Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost."

Anyone could look up the creed so there is no point cutting and pasting the whole thing, but do not forget that the trinity concerns the father, son, and the holy spirit, not just that Jesus is divine. So please consider the whole trinity, that all three are eternal, but not three Eternals but one eternal.

Thus, the question is "why is it that the early church took almost 4 centuries to come up with the trinity as clearly stipulated as in the Athanasian Creed"?
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
First there is the biblical concept of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Centuries later, the formulation of it, not biblical.
 

February-Saturday

Devil Worshiper
I'm only considered Christian by LaVeyan Satanists (as far as I'm aware), but early Christianity had a lot of different ideas mulling about within it. The creeds were a function of the Church, so obviously they couldn't exist until after its formation.

A lot of what the creeds solidified as doctrine were concepts beforehand, the creeds just put these beliefs into writing and canonized them. You also have to understand that the concept of Trinitarianism was canonized during a time where there were many competing christologies.

Whether Trinitarianism pre-dates the Church and is what's taught in the Bible is a different question, but there's no reason why this teaching in particular couldn't have both been biblical and canonized centuries later.

It's better to ask whether we can show that this teaching on the Trinity predates the creed, or bring up evidence that it was created very close to creed, or that it isn't what was biblically taught. The date of it being signed and canonized as official doctrine doesn't seem to me to matter very much in this discussion.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I'm only considered Christian by LaVeyan Satanists (as far as I'm aware), but early Christianity had a lot of different ideas mulling about within it. The creeds were a function of the Church, so obviously they couldn't exist until after its formation.

A lot of what the creeds solidified as doctrine were concepts beforehand, the creeds just put these beliefs into writing and canonized them. You also have to understand that the concept of Trinitarianism was canonized during a time where there were many competing christologies.

Whether Trinitarianism pre-dates the Church and is what's taught in the Bible is a different question, but there's no reason why this teaching in particular couldn't have both been biblical and canonized centuries later.

It's better to ask whether we can show that this teaching on the Trinity predates the creed, or bring up evidence that it was created very close to creed, or that it isn't what was biblically taught. The date of it being signed and canonized as official doctrine doesn't seem to me to matter very much in this discussion.

The person who coined the term Trinity didn’t have the same concept of the trinity as we have now.

So it was not just a canonization that happened in 381. Before that the trinity existed, in a different form.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
"why is it that the early church took almost 4 centuries to come up with the trinity as clearly stipulated as in the Athanasian Creed"?
The Athanasian Creed was the product of and in the history of theological/doctrinal development. IMO, your question actually is: "what is the story of the Trinitarian doctrine's development from beginning to end?***" Ergo, I say, any discussion about who was right or wrong is off-topic and merits a firm and prompt reprimand from the Mods. What is appropriate is information about the people who contributed to the doctrine's development and/or opposed it, in part or whole.

*** or at least "to the final statement of the Athanasian Creed".
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Given the premise that the Bible is completely propagating the Trinity (if you believe it or not take it as a hypothetical premise for the sake of this question) why is it that the early church took almost 4 centuries to come up with the trinity as clearly stipulated as in the Athanasian Creed?

When this question or any similar question is asked what you see mostly is people trying to prove Jesus is God and quote the Bible. The question is not that and any objective person would be able to see it. Also, this question is asked with the premise given that the Bible is fully Trinitarian purely to be precise in the question.

"Qualis Pater, talis Filius, talis (et) Spiritus Sanctus.- Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost."

Anyone could look up the creed so there is no point cutting and pasting the whole thing, but do not forget that the trinity concerns the father, son, and the holy spirit, not just that Jesus is divine. So please consider the whole trinity, that all three are eternal, but not three Eternals but one eternal.

Thus, the question is "why is it that the early church took almost 4 centuries to come up with the trinity as clearly stipulated as in the Athanasian Creed"?
sorry but it was there before the athanasian creed. . they are the originator, originating, and the origin. the father, spirit, and the son. or if you prefer mind, body, spirit complex.


https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/origen/
 
why is it that the early church took almost 4 centuries to come up with the trinity as clearly stipulated as in the Athanasian Creed?

It didn't take 4 centuries to 'come up with the trinity'.

What happened at that time was codifying pre-existing ideas in order to help establish orthodoxy.

You are probably aware of the political context of Christianity during the period of Constantine and his successors.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
It didn't take 4 centuries to 'come up with the trinity'.

What happened at that time was codifying pre-existing ideas in order to help establish orthodoxy.

You are probably aware of the political context of Christianity during the period of Constantine and his successors.

I didn’t say the trinity did not exist prior to the Athanasian creed.

I understand your point of the political climate.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
@firedragon I was writing about the development of 'Trinitarian monotheism' on a different thread today. For simplicity's sake, I'm going to 're-quote' it here (as it relates to your OP). Here is my original post in three parts:

If this is a reference to the later Nicene Trinitarian conception of God as three hypostases but with one essence and being, that doctrine as later articulated isn't found in the corpus of Paul's letters and it has no obvious precedent in pre-Christian Judaism. It arises from later systematization of the 'deification' of Christ (which is very much a feature of the New Testamant texts) using the philosophical language of ontology.

Already, in his letters we do, however, find Paul attesting to a mutation of traditional Jewish theology which led him - in tandem with all the other NT authors - to incorporate Jesus into the shema as a "second power" in heaven pre-existing from eternity with the God of Israel as his Wisdom and agent of creation.

Consider:


Binitarianism - Wikipedia


Larry W. Hurtado of University of Edinburgh uses the word "binitarian" to describe the position of early Christian devotion to God, which ascribes to the Son (Jesus) an exaltedness that in Judaism would be reserved for God alone, while still affirming as in Judaism that God is one and is alone to be worshiped. He writes:

...there are a fairly consistent linkage and subordination of Jesus to God 'the Father' in these circles, evident even in the Christian texts from the latter decades of the 1st century that are commonly regarded as a very 'high' Christology, such as the Gospel of John and Revelation. This is why I referred to this Jesus-devotion as a 'binitarian' form of monotheism: there are two distinguishable figures (God and Jesus), but they are posited in a relation to each other that seems intended to avoid the ditheism of two gods.[1]
Hurtado does not describe binitarianism as antithetical to Nicene Christianity but rather as an indication that early Christians (before Nicaea) were monotheistic (as evidenced by their singular reference to the Father as God) yet also devoted to Jesus as pre-existent, co-eternal, the creator, embodying the power of God, by whom the Father is revealed, and in whose name alone the Father is worshiped. He writes, "The central place given to Jesus ... and ... their concern to avoid ditheism by reverencing Jesus rather consistently with reference to 'the Father', combine to shape the proto-orthodox 'binitarian' pattern of devotion. Jesus truly is reverenced as divine."[1]:618

Hurtado's view might be interpreted as urging that, at this stage in the development of the Church's understanding, it could be said that God is a person (the Father) and one being; and that Jesus is distinct from the Father, was pre-existent with God, and also originating from God without becoming a being separate from him, so that he is God (the Son). This view of a binitarian pattern of devotion would posit a unity of God's being and a oneness of the object of worship, which is sympathetic to its predecessor view in Judaism; and it also displays a plurality of simultaneous identities, which is sympathetic to its successor in trinitarianism. It is a development in understanding of Christ, in other words, from which arose several subsequent ones in the further course of development that eventually came into conflict with one another.

Scholars term this theological conception "binatarianism", with the Holy Spirit at this stage of doctrinal development being a much less articulated concept - more of a divine force or power (not terribly dissimilar to traditional Jewish understanding of the Spirit of God), as opposed to a hypostasis.

However, this 'binatarian' conception of monotheism (unlike later Nicene Trinitarianism with its ontological categories of hypostases and ousia) was a Jewish 'heresy' that manifested itself in groups within Second Temple and early post-Second Temple Judaism outside of the context of early Christianity, as one can clearly infer from the Babylonian Talmud's not infrequent condemnations of this "two powers heresy".

Consider Hagigah 14a in the Bavli in which the Rabbis discuss the proper exegesis of Daniel 7:9:


One verse says: His clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool (Dan. 7:9), and (elsewhere) it is written: His locks are curled and black as a raven! (Cant. 5:11)—There is no contradiction: one (verse refers to) (the court) in session, and the other (verse refers to) war. For the Master said: In (court) session none is more fitting than an old man, and in war none is more fitting than a young man.

One passage says: His throne was fiery flames (Dan. 7:9); and another passage says: [I watched] until thrones were set in place, and an Ancient of Days (‘atiq yomin) took his seat! (Dan 7:9)—There is no contradiction: one (throne) for him [the Ancient of Days], and one (throne) for David: For it has been taught (in a baraita): one was for him, and the other was for David—these are the words of Rabbi Aqiva.

Said Rabbi Yose the Galilean to him: Aqiva, how long will you treat the Shekhinah as profane! Rather, one (throne) was for justice (din) and one (throne) was for mercy (tzedaqah)

Said Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah to him: Aqiva, what have you to do with the Haggadah? Cease your talk (about the Haggadah), and turn to (the laws concerning) Nega‘im and Ohalot!



And likewise in Hagiga 15a:


Aher chopped down the shoots’: Of him the verse says, “Do not let your mouth cause your flesh to sin” (Ecclesiastes 5:5). What does this mean? He saw that Metatron had been given permission [תושר] to sit and write the good deeds of Israel. He said, but it is taught that on high there will be no sitting, no conflict, no “back,” and no tiredness! Perhaps, G-d forbid, there are two powers [יתשתויושר]!


In the first story, Rabbi Akiva interprets the 'ancient of days' and the 'one like a son of man' in the Book of Daniel as two distinct heavenly powers, both a kind of manifestation of God and one of the exalted figures (the one like "the son of man") being 'David', that is the Davidic Messiah.

Akiva is then immediately corrected by Rabbi Yose and Rabbi Eleazar who upbraid him for an erroneous exegesis of the passage involving the 'thrones' in Daniel's heavenly vision, explaining that two divine powers are not implied by the passage.

In the second story, the Rabbi Elisha ben Abuyah has an ecstatic, mystical vision of the divine 'merkabah' or throne which he comes back from a 'heretic': namely, he comes to the conclusion that the angel Metatron might be one of 'two powers' in heaven alongside the God of Israel. Again, the Rabbis condemn him for lapsing into this binatarian heresy but unlike Rabbi Akiva, ben Abuyah remains in heresy.

We can see this same idea reiterated in the later merkabah literature, such as in the Book of 3 Enoch where the same story of 'Aher's' vision of "two divine powers" is given lengthier treatment:


Rabbi Ishmael said to me: The angel Metatron, Prince of the Divine Presence, the glory of highest heaven, said to me:

At first I was sitting on a great throne at the door of the seventh palace, and I judged all the denizens of the heights, the familia of the Omnipresent, on the authority of the Holy One, blessed be he...

But when Aher came to behold the vision of the Merkabah and set eyes on me, he was afraid and trembled before me...

Then he opened his mouth and said: “There are indeed two powers in heaven!”


(continued....)
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
See also this, in terms of Metatron's presentation in the Sefer Hekhalot:


Andrei A


The significance of Metatron’s figure among the angelic hosts can be briefly and accurately summed up in his title the Lesser YHWH,[1] which occurs with abbreviations several times in 3 Enoch, including passages found in Synopse §15, §73, and §76. In Synopse §15, Metatron reports to R. Ishmael that the Deity proclaimed him the junior manifestation of his name in front of all the angelic hosts: “the Holy One, blessed be he, fashioned for me a majestic robe…and he called me, ‘The Lesser YHWH’ (N+qh ywy) in the presence of his whole household in the height, as it is written, ‘My name is in him.’”[2]

As with Metatron’s other offices, this designation as the lesser Tetragrammaton is closely connected with the angel’s duties and roles in the immediate presence of the Lord. Scholars have thus previously noted that the name the Lesser YHWH, attested in 3 Enoch (Synopse §15, §73, and §76) is used “as indicative of Metatron’s character of representative, vicarius, of the Godhead; it expresses a sublimation of his vice-regency[3] into a second manifestation[4] of the Deity in the name[5] YHWH.”[6]

The sharing of the attributes with the Godhead is significant and might convey the omniscience of its bearer. Peter Schäfer observes that in Sefer Hekhalot, Enoch-Metatron who stands at the head of all the angels as “lesser YHWH” is the representation of God. Endowed with the same attributes as God, Metatron, just like the Deity, is omniscient.[9] Another important attribute that the Deity and the lesser manifestation of His name share is the attribute of the celestial seat, an important symbol of authority.


This kind of 'binatarian' heresy, which the Talmudic Rabbis fought against as a violation of monotheism, is thought by many scholars to lie at the roots of the New Testament 'high christology' (with Jesus assuming the role other heretical Jews like Aher gave to 'Metatron') and it is a separate matter from later Nicene Trinitarianism (which relied upon Greek philosophical categories of ontology, in part, for its articulation), which had no analogue in Second Temple Judaism.

In origins, the 'two powers' heresy was a Jewish heresy (much 'broader' than just early Christianity, which was but one 'binatarian sect' amongst others) - not a Christian one like the later Trinitarianism.

Alan F. Segal, a late Jewish scholar of the Second Temple era, studied the emergence and prevalence of this heresy in-depth in his now classic treatment of the topic, Two Powers in Heaven (1977); as did the Talmudist scholar Daniel Boyarin in various studies (including this essay) and most recently the late antique scholar Professor Peter Schafer in his new study, Two Gods in Heaven: Jewish Concepts of God in Antiquity (2020) from Princeton University Press:


Two Gods in Heaven


Drawing on an in-depth analysis of ancient sources that have received little attention until now, Peter Schäfer demonstrates how the Jews of the pre-Christian Second Temple period had various names for a second heavenly power—such as Son of Man, Son of the Most High, and Firstborn before All Creation. He traces the development of the concept from the Son of Man vision in the biblical book of Daniel to the Qumran literature, the Ethiopic book of Enoch, and the Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria. After the destruction of the Second Temple, the picture changes drastically. While the early Christians of the New Testament took up the idea and developed it further, their Jewish contemporaries were divided. Most rejected the second god, but some—particularly the Jews of Babylonia and the writers of early Jewish mysticism—revived the ancient Jewish notion of two gods in heaven.


If people want to understand how something like 'New Testament' Christianity can emerge from Second Temple Judaism, these are the authoritative studies to read concerning the broader category of Jewish 'heresy' from which early Christianity developed.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Compare the above with the 'data' from the New Testament texts concerning Jesus, such as:


1 Corinthians 8:6


6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

The above statement is not thought by scholars to have been composed by Paul, rather they believe he was referencing an already well-known creed of the primitive church, which tells us that the earliest Christians had already come to regard Jesus as a pre-existent divine agent of creation co-eternal with God, here incorporating him into the shema.

There is a consensus in New Testament scholarship now that "high christology" emerged early, before the writing of the Pauline epistles (which are our first Christian documents). See the relevant chapters in Bart Ehrman's 2014 book, "How Jesus became God" for an accessible overview of this scholarly consensus.

For instance, Hurtado contends on pages 119 - 124 of his now standard treatment of the topic in the book, Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity:



"…The overwhelming majority of scholars in the field agree that there are at least a few passages in Paul’s undisputed letters that reflect and presuppose the idea of Jesus’ preexistence…

Most scholars take these verses to reflect a belief in the personal preexistence and incarnation of Christ…

Paul’s formulaic statement in 1 Corinthians 8:6 indicates that already at that early point in the Christian movement believers were attributing to Christ not only preexistence or foreordination, but also an active role as divine agent in creation.…This is a suitable point at which to underscore certain key results of this discussion of Jesus’ preexistence…It appeared astonishingly early in the Christian movement. Second, the condensed nature of the references indicates that Paul was not introducing the idea but presumed acquaintance with it already among his converts…Third, these references include reflections of the idea that Christ was actively involved as divine agent in creation…

One final point: in these Pauline statements it is the historic figure Jesus who is referred to as preexistent…These passages directly attribute to Jesus personally a preexistence and a central role in creation…"
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Given the premise that the Bible is completely propagating the Trinity (if you believe it or not take it as a hypothetical premise for the sake of this question) why is it that the early church took almost 4 centuries to come up with the trinity as clearly stipulated as in the Athanasian Creed?
If it were biblical, why the need for the creeds in the first place?
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Given the premise that the Bible is completely propagating the Trinity (if you believe it or not take it as a hypothetical premise for the sake of this question) why is it that the early church took almost 4 centuries to come up with the trinity as clearly stipulated as in the Athanasian Creed?

When this question or any similar question is asked what you see mostly is people trying to prove Jesus is God and quote the Bible. The question is not that and any objective person would be able to see it. Also, this question is asked with the premise given that the Bible is fully Trinitarian purely to be precise in the question.

"Qualis Pater, talis Filius, talis (et) Spiritus Sanctus.- Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost."

Anyone could look up the creed so there is no point cutting and pasting the whole thing, but do not forget that the trinity concerns the father, son, and the holy spirit, not just that Jesus is divine. So please consider the whole trinity, that all three are eternal, but not three Eternals but one eternal.

Thus, the question is "why is it that the early church took almost 4 centuries to come up with the trinity as clearly stipulated as in the Athanasian Creed"?

The answer is simply that the Trinity is not fully spelled out in the Bible. Even Trinitarians generally acknowledge this, in my experience. The "seeds" of the doctrine can be found there, depending on one's interpretations. For Christians who don't subscribe to Sola Scriptura, this is really not problematic. Christianity is bigger than the Bible.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
a trinity of gods was believed in by pagans long before any Athanasian creed was dreamed up

You're describing tritheism.

Trinitarianism is not tritheism and does not posit a polytheistic triad of different gods.

What Trinitarian monotheism posits is one single God in three distinct Persons with the one essence and being.

The roots of this idea can be found in the Triadic language used to refer to God in the New Testament and the developed 'binatarianism' of the divine Father and Son that is rather more developed in these scriptural texts, of which later Trinitarianism was a doctrinal development using the Greek philosophical categories of ontology.
 
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