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Featured The time of Judeo-Christian writings

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Ted Evans, Aug 7, 2017.

  1. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    It is so fun watching you and @shunyadragon engage in a bromance of ignorant bible-bashing.
     
  2. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    There is a logical fallacy here when you take disagreements personally, and make rude accusations of others. Can you name it.

    It is fine with me that the Bible is Christian scripture, and containing Hebrew scripture translated from the Christian perspective. If you read Tumah carefully he is not far off if at all from our view of the Hebrew scriptures not equivalent to the Old Testament, because of translation problems like capitalization and punctuation as well as direct translation errors of some words.

    I have presented sources to support my view, and find no disagreement with what Tumah has posted so far.

    I am perfectly willing to discuss the Bible as Christian scripture.
     
    #262 shunyadragon, Aug 14, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  3. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Are you going to try to present any actual examples?
     
  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Name two.
     
  5. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    There is a ligical fallacy called the straw man as well. You are attacking whether or not the OT is the equivalent of Jewish scripture. It is not. It is not Jewish scripture. It is however Judeo-Christian scripture. You realize that the terms equivalent and related are not equivalent?
     
  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    So far from the Jewish perspective so far of posters who are Jewish, except for @Jayhawker Soule, the Christian Old Testament is not considered Judeo-Christian scripture. That is not a Straw man, it is simply the belief of many Jews.
     
  7. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Tumah mentioned the Capitalization of messiah in translation in some text is incorrect from the Hebrew perspective. Did you read his posts?

    The translation of the Hebrew for young woman is in error a virgin in some texts.

    I gave a source that discussed the problem of punctuation. Did you read it?
     
    #267 shunyadragon, Aug 14, 2017
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  8. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    I think you are mistaken. It is not Jewish scripture, it has no effect on Jewish scripture. That is a different question than whether it is Judeo-Christian scripture. If the posters who happen to be Jewish disagree, it is not because of their understanding of Jewish scripture, it is because if their lack of understanding regarding the term Judeo-Christian.
     
  9. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    No mistake . . .

    So far from the Jewish perspective so far of posters who are Jewish, except for @Jayhawker Soule, the Christian Old Testament is not considered Judeo-Christian scripture, and not the Old Testament in translation. That is not a Straw man, it is simply the belief of many Jews.

    I have no problem discussing the Bible as Christian scripture.
     
    #269 shunyadragon, Aug 14, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  10. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    No it is a mistake. You are asking posters if they are equivalent, not if they are related. This is a false equivalency. Equivalent and related are not equivalent.
     
  11. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    I meant something we could actually discuss, since I don't know what you are actully referring to. I'm not sure what a capilization of messsiah would/should be inferring, either, without context. The virgin of babylon might be something, seems obscure.

    If that is your only argument, it doesn't seem like much of an argument, actually.

    An argument is more along the lines of presenting the evidence for deity aspect change, the 'trinity' theory. I have not noticed anything like that in the english bible, in fact non trinitarians read the bible all the time, and there are different ideas of the nature of the godhood within christianity. //regardless, I don't notice any deific name/title bias to indicate trinity in the O.T.

    Ps I thought you might have your own arguments, as opposed to referring to others.
     
    #271 Desert Snake, Aug 14, 2017
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  12. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Patience


    The problem is not mine alone. Actually the best source are the Jews who are the ones that know the Hebrew scriptures,

    Patience, more to follow . . .
     
  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Translation problems using the Septuagint

    From: Septuagint a "bad translation" of the Hebrew text? : Koine and Biblical Greek

    Septuagint a "bad translation" of the Hebrew text?

    [​IMG]by Ian_M_Graham ยป Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:41 pm

    "I have done a study of the Greek and Hebrew, (Not an expert by any stretch of the imagination) and have discovered a vast vocabulary difference between the Hebrew and its alleged "Greek translation."

    Take for example the Hebrew word tzuwr, translated into English as "rock," "He is our rock," But the Greek does not translate to Petra, Petros, lithos, or any other kind of rock. It presents a simple statement "as for God his works are true..." [Deu 32:4]

    I can well understand the glee of a pagan hillman as a Hebrew appears over the hill proclaiming "God is a rock;" The hillman would join himself to this Hebrew exclaiming loudly, "Yes, so is our rock a God, and that tree, and that river, and etc..."

    I can well understand why the Greek does not "translate" tzuwr in that verse.

    Further evidence is repleat in scripture, but I do not want to overburden any one with the study. Just wondered if anyone else has made the discovery? It does get lonesome in research."

    Ian_M_Graham
     
  14. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    One of the surprises is as a Jew your so ardently defending the Christian Bible,
     
    #274 shunyadragon, Aug 14, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  15. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Not many realize there were a number of versions Hebrew scripture around in period of ~100 BCE - ~200 BCE, and the Christian authors of the gospels did not accurately cite the verses from one specific version, and did not always specifically nor accurately cite the book. They sometimes paraphrased citations to make their point. This is the reason that The Old and New Testament are specifically Christian scripture. Many may claim there writing is accurate, because they believe they were inspired by God. This is ok, but it represents inspired Christian scripture and not Jewish scripture.

    From: Septuagint a "bad translation" of the Hebrew text? : Koine and Biblical Greek

    When the rescensionists took over, the original text was violated drastically. Further proof that the Hebrew was not "translated" into the Greek. But, the New testament was not dependent upon the Greek of the Septuagint rescensions, because the rescensions came after the Greek new testament.

    If you want to know the probable correct reading of the Septuagint, look to the quotes in the new testament and interpolate back into the old testament, then extrapolate the meaning out of it. It must be remembered however, that much of the New testament did not quote on a word for word basis from a particular text.

    The fact of the matter is; the New testament writers referenced freely, whatever part or parts of the old testament they needed to make a point. And they did not see it as "misreferencing" because they referenced manuscripts, not chapters and verses; which were an addition, adapted much later.

    And the sacred writings were most often grouped into Moses, and the law, and the prophets; not 39 books as we know it today. Also, they traditionally named the most prominent of the authors cited. It was the custom. The Christians had no trouble with it; it took later generations to begin to see "contradictions," and "inconsistancies" where none existed.

    Look to Zechariah 11:12-13 for the basis of the material referenced by Mathew. [Zech 11:12] And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

    Yet Mathew's reading seems to miss by a wide gap, between the source and the "quote." [Mat 27:9] Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; 10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.

    The second clause is not a quote at all, but is a summary of the narrative found earlier in the source material. ("They weighed out my price/reward - 30 pieces of silver.")

    Mat 27:10 has a clause, "and gave them for the potter's field."

    There is no mention of a "potter's field" in Zech, and it is a major contribution to the prophecy of Mathew's quote. So we look further, to the source referenced by Mathew, Jeremiah, who details for us how the prophet himself, went down to the Potter's house and observed how he worked the clay into vessels, and how he dealt with that which had become marred in the working. 19:2 speaks of the Potter, employed by the temple, as possessing a burial-place in the valley "Hinnom." Thus can we understand Zechariah's "casting of the money in the temple" as a renewal of purchase, dating back at least to the days prior to the exile.

    The phrase "as the Lord had appointed me" [27:10] is from the Septuagint of Exod 9:12, which differs from the Massoretic text, which reads, "As the Lord had said to Moses."

    Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. [KJV]

    Jer 19:1 Then said the LORD to me, Go and get an earthen bottle, the work of the Potter, and thou shalt bring of the elders of the people, and of the priests; 2 and thou shalt go forth to the burial-place of the sons of their children, which is at the entrance of the gate of Charsith; and do thou read there all these words which I shall speak to thee: {Septuagint}

    (Compare the Septuagint with the massoretic: Jer 19:2 And go forth unto the valley of the son of Hinnom, which is by the entry of the east gate, and proclaim there the words that I shall tell thee, {Massoretic Text} )

    Mathew 27 is therefore, combining elements of Jeremiah, Zechariah, and Moses; and from both the Hebrew and Septuagint.


    The deep things of God missed by theologians.

    Here is another example: [Mark 1:2] "As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee." Mark "references" Isaiah, as the more prominent of the sources, though the bulk of material comes from Malachi.

    Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

    Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to this temple, even the messenger of the covenant whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

    But, for an example where the New Testament theologians failed to see the meaning buried within the meaning of words, one of the most profound Old Testament teachings, dealing with the Saints of Christ, we have to turn to John's writings, and listen in on a conversation Jesus is having with the crowd.....

    In [John 7:38-39], the meaning goes almost "subterannean." The dig is deep, for the connections, hidden in mystery from before the foundation of the earth; They are subtle, and have eluded the scholars and theologians. But to the child of God, it is evident.

    What John says is [John 7:38] "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." but his application does not stop there, He goes on to say further; [39] But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.

    Most of the theologians apply this to the "giving of the Holy Spirit" on Pentecost. But this is NOT Jesus' application, nor John's understanding, at all. And the proof of this is demonstrated in John's writing found in 1st John 3:9, which we shall study in just a few moments.

    Look all the way back to the promise God gave to Abraham, in [Gen 13:15] where there is a word, "spermati," that has been referenced by Gal 3:16

    Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed [spermati][dat.s] for ever.
    Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed [spermatos] [gen. s] after thee.
    Gen 24:7 The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed [spermati][Dat. s] will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence.

    In Gen 17:7 and 24:7, the word sperma (seed) is in the singular, (Genitive and Dative), and that is the main focus of Paul's reference, showing that while Abraham's descendants, through Isaac, and not Ishmael, (Another Abrahamic seed) are indicated by this language. This reference to [zera] as a collective is, from the prophetic standpoint, significantly singular; and it is also significantly Messianic; Messiah, the Christ, who is the sperma, the "seed," of Abraham; It becomes simply the fact of its being singular rather than plural that becomes important here.

    Now look as the story unfolds in the manuscripts (not the chapters and verses) of antiquity; Center stage, steps Moses, the prophet of old, to record the words of Balaam, for posterity.

    Num 24:3 And he took up his parable, and said Balaam, the son of Beor hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said: 4 He hath said, which heard the words of God, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance but having his eyes open: 5 How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob, and thy tabernacles, O Israel! 6 As the valleys are they spread forth, as gardens by the river's side, as the trees of lign aloes which the LORD hath planted, and as cedar trees beside the waters. 7 He shall pour the water out of his buckets, and his seed shall be in many waters, and his king shall be higher than Agag, and his kingdom shall be exalted. [KJV]

    The Massoretic text sheds but little light on the concept; [7:] He makes waters [4326] flow from his [1805] buckets and his [2233] seed shall be in [7227] mighty [4325] waters, (flow in abundance) [Massoretic Text]

    Num 24:7 There shall come a {anthrwpos} man out of his {spermatos} seed, and he shall rule over many nations. [Septuagint]

    Joel 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall [3212] flow with [2461] milk, and all the [650] rivers of Judah shall [3212] flow with [4325] waters, and a [4599] fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall [8248] water the valley of ****tim. [KJV]

    ...the hills shall {rueesontai} flow with {gala} milk, and all the {afeseis} fountains of Juda shall {rueesontai} flow with {udata} water, and a fountain shall go forth of the house of the Lord, and water the valley of flags.

    1 Pet 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
    John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.

    John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the spermatos (seed) of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

    Acts 13:23 Of this man's spermatos (seed) hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

    Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the spermatos (seed) of David according to the flesh;

    Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his spermati (seed) were the promises made. He saith not, And to spermasin (seeds), as of many; but as of one, And to thy spermati (seed), which is
    Christ.

    Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.29 And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's sperma (seed) and heirs according to the promise.

    2 Tim 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the spermatos (seed) of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

    1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is begotten of God doth not commit sin; for his sperma (seed) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.

    Thus do The saints fulfill the statement of Jesus in John 7:38.

    It also explains two other verses, One in the Old testament, one in the New: Isaiah 8:18 "Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of Hosts, which dwelleth in Mount Zion.

    Heb 2:13... "And again, behold I and the children which God hath given me."
     
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  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    I'm not defending it at all. I have four 'bibles' (and twice that many torahs) on the bookshelves behind me, only one of which is Christian, and any honest review of my past quotes over the years would demonstrate that I typically use the Christian source solely as a secondary reference. The Old Testament of that Christian source - the NRSV - was heavily influenced by the efforts of key translator Harry Orlinsky, "the editor-in-chief of the New Jewish Publication Society (NJPS) translation of the Torah (1962)."

    What I am defending is a thoughtful and intellectually honest evaluation of the texts, something wholly at odds with everything that you've demonstrated so far.
     
  17. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    I am defending a reasonable thoughtful and intellectually honest position with sources. You are conflating a difference of opinion with a personal attack. NOT COOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I do not believe you have cited much if any sources, just vindictive personal attacks,
     
  18. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Excellent. Start a post on the Amy-Jill Levine source and we'll discuss it. We might even find points of agreement.
     
  19. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Excellent?!?!?!

    Missing, actually what your view is and some sources that actually support your view of the Bible and it's relationship to Judaism.

    I will take a look see.
     
  20. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    I agree with the Amy-Jill Levine source and the past two sources I cited questioning the translations and described specific problems related to the Septuagint and Biblical translations in the Old and New Testament. If you disagree be specific in the sources I cited.

    I consider your Wiki reference concerning the Septuagint too much of a general description, and did not clearly deal with the specific problems in the sources I cited,
     
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