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Featured The time of Judeo-Christian writings

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Ted Evans, Aug 7, 2017.

  1. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    I never said you did not. After all, Tumah's opinion is a good one to respect. If he wants to hear it from Tumah, let him. I am pretty sure Tumah respects your opinion as well.
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    That depends much on whether you are referring to scraps of manuscript or complete codex.

    Relevant to this discussion is WikiL Septuagint: Christian use, particularly ...

    In the Early Christian Church, the presumption that the Septuagint was translated by Jews before the era of Christ, and that the Septuagint at certain places gives itself more to a christological interpretation than 2nd-century Hebrew texts was taken as evidence that "Jews" had changed the Hebrew text in a way that made them less christological. For example, Irenaeus concerning Isaiah 7:14: The Septuagint clearly writes of a virgin (Greek παρθένος, bethulah in Hebrew) that shall conceive.,[46] while the word almah in the Hebrew text was, according to Irenaeus, at that time interpreted by Theodotion and Aquila (both proselytes of the Jewish faith) as a young woman that shall conceive. According to Irenaeus, the Ebionites used this to claim that Joseph was the (biological) father of Jesus. From Irenaeus' point of view that was pure heresy, facilitated by (late) anti-Christian alterations of the scripture in Hebrew, as evident by the older, pre-Christian, Septuagint.[47]

    When Jerome undertook the revision of the Old Latin translations of the Septuagint, he checked the Septuagint against the Hebrew texts that were then available. He broke with church tradition and translated most of the Old Testament of his Vulgate from Hebrew rather than Greek. His choice was severely criticized by Augustine, his contemporary; a flood of still less moderate criticism came from those who regarded Jerome as a forger. While on the one hand he argued for the superiority of the Hebrew texts in correcting the Septuagint on both philological and theological grounds, on the other, in the context of accusations of heresy against him, Jerome would acknowledge the Septuagint texts as well.[48] With the passage of time, acceptance of Jerome's version gradually increased until it displaced the Old Latin translations of the Septuagint.[23]

    Wiki: Septuagint: Manuscripts is also worth reviewing
     
  3. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Ok, why would the MT make up a name like Washti?

    Abihail, here אביהיל AVIHaYiL

    No its not. עמיאל means 'my nation, G-d'. אליעם means 'my G-d, nation'
    I don't even.
    Maybe you mean 'suffix'. But no. היל is the suffix of אביהיל and היל has no relation to חלן.

    חיאל means "my life, G-d"

    No, אביגיל means "my father, joy". אביהיל means perhaps 'my father, praise' or 'my father, bright'.

    Just to clarify -
    אביגיל - AVIGaYIL my father, joy
    אביהיל -AVIHaYIL my father, praise/bright
    אביחיל - AVIḤaYIL my father, soldier/strength
    - are all different



    Yeah! And Na'amah was Solomon's wife, but also the daughter of Lemech, which means that David, Solomon, Moses, Aaron, Esther and Daniel all lived before Noah!
    And David married his sister Abigail, who apparently was also married to Nabal and Zeruiah.
    David also took Saul's wife Ahinoam.
    And Asa, Solomon's great-grandson was married to Azubah, Caleb's wife. Obviously that means that Solomon and his great-grandson were both contemporaries of Moses.
    Incidentally, Ishmael and Solomon were in a homosexual relationship and fathered Basemath.
    Of course Rebecca's maid Deborah, also lead the Jews to victory against the Canaanites with her husband Barak.
    And Abraham's brother Haran, had a daughter named Milcah who was one of the daughters of Zelophehad. There were a lot of homosexual relationship in the Bible. Incidentally, Nahor Abraham's other brother was also Abraham's grandfather. So there was a bit of incest that I'll leave you to puzzle out.
    Shelomit the daughter of Divri was actually also the daughter of Zerubabel. Which makes sense because "divri" comes from the root for "speech" and Zerubabel has the word "babel" in it, which is how babies talk.
    While we're on the subject of Zerubabel, did you know that his son Meshullam was in fact a Gadite, Levite and Priest? Its true! His life of varied tribal affiliation spanned from the times of Jotham, until the time of Ezra.

    Its easy to see why so much editing was necessary. Clearly every Biblical personality lived within the same time frame.
     
    #223 Tumah, Aug 13, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
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  4. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I had in mind Esther specifically, as that would be more helpful for the other guy.

    It would be interesting to see if any manuscripts still have the 15 changes that the Talmud records were made to the LXX.
     
  5. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    "Made to" or "made in"?

    (Sorry, I am far from a Talmud scholar.)
     
  6. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Made in, I guess. The Talmud only discusses the translation of the Pentateuch. Rather it doesn't allow translation of other Books (which you may interpret as polemic against the available Greek translations of the time). Within that story it says that the translators incorporated 15 changes to the text for one reason or another and lists them. I once looked at the text available online and I recall that I only found a few of the changes.
     
  7. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I'm not so familiar with the Christian translations. The ones that come up commonly are capitalizing messiah where no definite article is indicated. And translating some words like כארי as "dug" to call to mind Jesus being nailed to the cross rather than "like a lion" even though that's not quite how its spelled.

    Maybe the way they punctuate the division of the seventy weeks to indicate that the numbers should be added for a sum of seventy rather than remain broken up the way it is presented.
     
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  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Thanks for the link. While interesting in its own right, I'm not clear that it's relevant to this thread.
     
  9. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    וַשְׁתִּי - The Septuagint reads this as 'Astin'

    וַשְׁנִי - Vashniy (Σανι - Sani ) appears in 1Ch 6:28 as the son of Samuel , brother of Abiah

    So why would the son of Samuel, have a Persian name?
    In 1 Samuel 8:2, Vashni is named 'יוֹאֵל' ( Yow'el ) or Ιωηλ

    They are no Greek or Persians records of a 'Vashti' in the Persian royal household, but the nearest name is 'Artystone'

    Artastūnā, means 'Pillar of Arta ' so 'astūnā' (iš-du-na ) means Pillar , In Greek it is 'στώνη ( Stone ) , possibly from PIE *stoi-no , ( Stone )
     
  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Esther is an interesting text, but a discussion of it would really take us pretty far afield.

    (Those interested might with to read the Adele Berlin JPS Bible Commentary.)
     
  11. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I'm not sure how to answer this as you haven't proven that Vashni is Persian.

    That is not near at all.
     
  12. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    ...and 'stone' has a Germanic root. Greek word for stone is petros, hence the name Peter.
     
  13. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    'וַשְׁנִי' and 'וַשְׁתִּי'

    The Hebrew language doesn't have a V,

    'Waw' particle also means 'and' and usually occurs as a junction between words, which means, 'וַשְׁתִּי' is incomplete , there is a prefix missing.

    'שְׁתִּ ( Seth )
    שִׁית ( To put, apoint )

    Related to 'שָׁוַע' (cry out for help )

    Here are all the associated words
    Ishvah ישוה
    Ishvi ישוי
    Seth שת
    Shaveh שוה
    Sheth שת
    Sheva שוא

    Beth-Sheba (בַּת־שֶׁבַע) is also written Bath-Sheva (בַּת־שֶׁוּעַ)

    Jews, being Anti-Persian by nature, are unable to explain why a Jewess married a Zoroastrian King, when both Judaism and Zoroastrianism forbid marriage outside the religion.
     
  14. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Well, it does. Its the letter ב without a dot in the middle. But over the years, the Hebrew letter ו took the sound as well, although as you say, it originally was a "w". Which is why I've said Washti, I think twice already.

    Names don't follow regular grammatical rules. They're names not words. ופסי (Num. 13:14) and וניה (Ezra 10:36) are two other names that start with a "waw".

    That says sh'ti, not Seth, although you seem to have replaced the letter י with an apostraphe.
    Are you trying to find a Hebrew root for what is meant to be a Persian name? Because if you are, that's silly.

    Nope, not related.

     
  15. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    The following is an explanation of the possible interpretation of of scripture due to punctuation.

    From: gptsrabbi: Punctuating the Bible

    "Over the course of the Middle Ages, the Hebrew scribes that preserved and copied the biblical text developed a system for indicating the vowels in each word. These scribes are known as Masoretes, and the text they produced is the Masoretic text. In addition to this vocalization system, they developed a system of accents for the text. In this system, each word has its own accent. The accents serve three purposes. First, the accent indicates which syllable in the word is accented. Second, the accents serve as a sort of musical notation, indicating how the text is to be chanted. Third, the accents serve somewhat like punctuation. This system is still found in modern printed editions of the Hebrew Bible.

    The punctuation in modern editions of the Greek New Testament comes in part from the punctuation found in manuscripts. In addition, punctuation is added by the editors of the Greek text.

    The punctuation of English versions of the Bible is dependent in part on the punctuation indicated by the Hebrew accent system and on the punctuation of the Greek text. However punctuation in English is different and more extensive than punctuation in either Hebrew or Greek. Thus, the punctuation of English versions is determined by the translators and editors of the particular version. Thus, for example, Ephesians 1:3-14 (one extended sentence in Greek) is divided into three sentences by the KJV, and up to fourteen or so sentences by some of the modern simple language translations. But this punctuation is a matter of editorial choice. So for example, in Eph 1:4, the KJV reads, “that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” The ESV reads, “that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love” (with the sentence then continuing into verse 5). The difference between the two renderings is that in the KJV, the phrase “in love” is understood to go with what precedes, as is indicated by the punctuation. In the ESV, the phrase “in love” is understood to go with what follows, again as indicated by the punctuation. In this case, the KJV is supported by the punctuation as it is found in the 27th edition of the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament. Most modern English versions, however, do the same as the ESV. In this case, the interpretational difference may be minimal. But where you put the comma, or whether you even use a comma, is not always so simple."

    More to follow . . .
     
  16. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    From: What is the Difference between the Old Testament, the Tanakh, and the Hebrew Bible?

    What is the Difference between the Old Testament, the Tanakh, and the Hebrew Bible? by Amy-Jill Levine

    "The term Old Testament, with its implication that there must be a corresponding New Testament, suggests to some that Judaism’s Bible and by extension Judaism are outdated and incomplete. Well-intended academics thus offered Hebrew Bible as a neutral alternative. However, the new language confuses more than it clarifies by erasing distinctions between the Christian Old Testament and the Jewish Tanakh. It is understandable if Christians think the Old Testament and the Tanakh are one and the same thing, but a closer look reveals important distinctions. For example, Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox Christian Old Testament canons include additional books, either written or preserved in Greek (Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Maccabees, etc.), that are not in the Jewish canon. And some Orthodox communions only use the Greek translation of the Hebrew (the Septuagint)—which varies in word choices and length from the Masoretic (Hebrew) Text. The Christian Old Testament and the Jewish Tanakh are also distinct from each other in terms of punctuation, canonical order, and emphases.

    Jesus would have heard his Scriptures in Hebrew, perhaps accompanied by an Aramaic paraphrase (targum). However, New Testament quotations from the Hebrew Bible usually follow the Greek of the Septuagint. For example, Isa 7:14 (written circa 700 B.C.E.) describes a pregnant young woman (Hebrew ’almah). The Greek translates ’almah as parthenos, which came to mean virgin(as in the Parthenon), and Matt 1:23, following the Greek, does the same. Ps 37:11 states, “the meek shall inherit the land” (Hebrew, arets); the Greek, echoed in Matt 5:5, shifts focus away from the land of Israel, and in this version “the meek … will inherit the earth.”

    Because the consonantal Hebrew text lacked punctuation, phrase breaks could be variously inserted. The Hebrew of Isa 40:3predicts the return to Israel of the exiles in Babylon: “A voice cries out: ‘In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord.’” The Gospel of Mark repunctuates this same passage to introduce John the Baptist: “The voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of the Lord’” (Mark 1:3).

    Interpretations of figures and images create yet another distinction between the (Christian) Old Testament and the (Jewish) Tanakh. For example, the Christian church understands Isaiah’s “suffering servant” (Isa 53:5-7) to be Jesus (Acts 8:3-36, John 19:34-37). In the synagogue, traditionally, the servant is Israel (see Isa 41:8, Isa 44:1, Isa 44:21, Isa 49:3); rabbinic sources also associate the servant with Moses, Rabbi Akiva, and a hidden Messiah who suffers from leprosy."

    Differences in canonical order further create distinct interpretations. The Old Testament tucks Ruth between Judges and 1 Samuel; the book fits here chronologically, because Ruth is King David’s great-grandmother, and David is introduced in 1 Samuel. The Tanakh places Ruth in the Ketuvim (Writings), where her scroll (Hebrew, megillah) accompanies the Song of Songs, Lamentations, Qohelet (Ecclesiastes), and Esther. These scrolls are read, in full, on certain Jewish holidays; thus they have a more prominent place in the canon of Judaism than they do in the Christian canons.
     
  17. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    Are you upset because they were related? You keep asking questions intended to distinguish them. They are not the same. I don't think that anyone here claimed they were the same. Or are you just trying to figure out exactly how they are distinguished? I would think that how they differ could be a thread in and of itself.
     
  18. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    Go ahead and find 'Washti' in any Persian or Greek record, all the consorts of the Persian monarchs are documented.

    Darius I - Atossa and Artystone
    Xerxex I - Amestris
    Artaxerxes - Damaspia

    Looking through all the Persian Kings, they don't appear to be any fictional Jewish women
    as wives.

    You can't prove Jewish rule against intermarriage existed during that time either and your 'Talmudic religion' did not exist during this time either, none of the Books of the Old Testament weren't even written at that time.

    It is more likely the Book of Esther was originally a Zoroastrian romance.
     
    #238 Magus, Aug 13, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
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  19. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    That's fine. But that doesn't mean you should be applying Hebrew grammatical rules to the name. Its simply not a Hebrew name. Actually, aside from one mention of Hadasah, Ezra and Jeconiah, there isn't a single Hebrew name in the text. Mordecai - if that's his real name - seems to be a contraction of the Aramaic word for either musk or myrrh. Esther is the Greek Astarte. If the two major players aren't given a Hebrew name, why would you think Vashti is?

    Sure I can. Immediately after they returned from exile (the story of Esther takes place during the time between the destruction of the first Temple and the return to Israel), someone lets Ezra know that the people intermarried and Ezra has a fit (see Ezra 9-10). If it was permissible, he shouldn't have had anything to complain about.

    Well, that's a step better than your previous conspiracy theories.
     
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  20. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    Not really a conspiracy theory since the Persian kings were Zoroastrians , the Book of Ezra itself is a Persian conspiracy, Ezra comes to Jerusalem with a letter of authority from the king of Persia whom introduced the Law and Festival of Booths (Zoroastrian holiday of Ayathrem )

    Ezra 5-6. A letter is sent to Darius and the decree of Cyrus found; the (1st=2nd)temple(Treasure house) is built and dedicated on the 3rd of the twelfth month in the sixth year of Darius.

    The Law of Moses ( Torah Mesha) was suppose to be lost, but somehow the Persians gave it to Ezra, Who gave the Persians the Torah-Mesha?

    The Hebrew Language was created by the Persians too, when they implemented Imperial Aramaic, which was used to express Phoenician with an Armenian dialect.

    It seems Jews ( who read fake Talmud not Torah) are in serious denial as well as Christians, for the Messiah was Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1), Prophets are not Soothsaying fictional events in the 1st century. Christianity and Messianic Judaism are bunk.

    Ezra means 'Help' , so it's a synonym with יָשַׁע 'Yasha' and the first too return was Zerubabel ( 'Seed of Babylon' ) , anecdotal names, that's a sign of myth making.
     
    #240 Magus, Aug 14, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
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