The thief on the cross: The rule or the exception?

[e.r.m.]

I love your tenacity. Even after you get refuted you continue your rhetoric. Anyway, I have to get ready for an appointment with a chick named Irene.

(Hurricane) Irene's all wet, lol.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

when one account says both thieves are hurling insults at jesus and another account says only one... seems to me you are grasping at straws by saying, 'well, he had a change of heart' and then in one account he is pretty much quiet and only says "why have you forsaken me?" while another account says "today you will be with me in paradise" i think my logic isn't based on wishful thinking it's based a reason...that these are two conflicting accounts.

It was not uncommon for the Romans to have mass executions.

Because you just picture in your mind that there were only a total of three [3] persons being executed that day does Not mean that there were not more than three there at that time.

There is a Calvary to be seen at Ploubezere near Lannion, in the Cotes-du-Nord, Brittany known as LesCing Croix [the 5 crosses] which shows a high cross in the center with 4 smaller crosses, 2 on each side.

That Calvary seen was taken from Luke 23v32 because there Luke writes: 'also' two 'others'.
That mean besides the two of Matthew 27vs38-44 there were at least two more meaning: besides Jesus 4 others, or 4 more,
but only 1 to Jesus immediate right and 1 to Jesus immediate left.

Not conflicting because putting the accounts together completes the picture.

 

[e.r.m.]

The only contradicting narrative is in your fallacious responses. I'm use to it, though..

James2ko

Calm down a little 1 Peter 3:15. Let the Bible do the talking.
I get a little excited sometimes myself.

 

[waitasec]

I love your tenacity. Even after you get refuted you continue your rhetoric. Anyway, I have to get ready for an appointment with a chick named Irene.

sorry 'bout that...

btw,
a disclaimer isn't proof...it's reaching for straws

 

[waitasec]

It was not uncommon for the Romans to have mass executions.

Because you just picture in your mind that there were only a total of three [3] persons being executed that day does Not mean that there were not more than three there at that time.

There is a Calvary to be seen at Ploubezere near Lannion, in the Cotes-du-Nord, Brittany known as LesCing Croix [the 5 crosses] which shows a high cross in the center with 4 smaller crosses, 2 on each side.

That Calvary seen was taken from Luke 23v32 because there Luke writes: 'also' two 'others'.
That mean besides the two of Matthew 27vs38-44 there were at least two more meaning: besides Jesus 4 others, or 4 more,
but only 1 to Jesus immediate right and 1 to Jesus immediate left.

Not conflicting because putting the accounts together completes the picture.

gee i wonder why i picture 3 in my mind...
mark
27 They crucified two rebels with him, one on his right and one on his left.

we don't need to even talk about the others though...lets look at what jesus says...
jesus yelling out, "why have you forsaken me?" and then saying "today you will be with me in paradise" are conflicting, inconsistent and irreconcilable...

when he was betrayed in johns account is saying,"Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, "Who is it you want?"

but in matthew he says this, "Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"
2 other inconsistent accounts...

 

[waitasec]

Sure it does...Luke's account indicates Christ's "paradise" comment to the thief was made before His "forsaken" comment:

Luk 23:40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."
Luk 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
Luk 23:44 Now it was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

Mat 27:44 Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing.
Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"
Mat 27:47 Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, "This Man is calling for Elijah!"​

Christ's paradise comment was probably said between Mat 27:44 and 45 which Luke simply omitted.

I presented evidence on how the paradise comment could have been made before the obviously lamentable forsaken comment. To which you replied:

not even close because you used matthew instead of mark...
interesting...
we are comparing mark and luke and you use matthew, why?

mark specifically mentions those that were being crucified where insulting him, a clear contradiction. also, jesus is pretty sure what is going to happen in luke when he tell the guy that they will be in paradise that day...but in mark he asks god why was forsaken... 2 very different narratives that cannot be reconciled.

not cool... :redcard: :tsk:
mark
27 They crucified two rebels with him, one on his right and one on his left. [28] [a] 29 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, “So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, 30 come down from the cross and save yourself!” 31 In the same way the chief priests and the teachers of the law mocked him among themselves. “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! 32 Let this Messiah, this king of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe.” Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

The Death of Jesus

33 At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. 34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?&#8221.
35 When some of those standing near heard this, they said, “Listen, he’s calling Elijah.”

36 Someone ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said.

37 With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

luke
38 There was a written notice above him, which read: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

 

[Thief]

not even close because you used matthew instead of mark...
interesting...
we are comparing mark and luke and you use matthew, why?


not cool... :redcard: :tsk:
mark
27 They crucified two rebels with him, one on his right and one on his left. [28] [a] 29 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, “So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, 30 come down from the cross and save yourself!” 31 In the same way the chief priests and the teachers of the law mocked him among themselves. “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! 32 Let this Messiah, this king of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe.” Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

The Death of Jesus

33 At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. 34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
35 When some of those standing near heard this, they said, “Listen, he’s calling Elijah.”

36 Someone ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said.

37 With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

luke
38 There was a written notice above him, which read: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Good to see you read it.

Now, was the thief allowed into heaven?
By grace of his request?...
or by his baptism(which might not have happened)
or by the words of the Carpenter?

 

[waitasec]

Good to see you read it.

Now, was the thief allowed into heaven?
By grace of his request?...
or by his baptism(which might not have happened)
or by the words of the Carpenter?

according to mark....no

according to luke... yes

 

[waitasec]

here is another conundrum to solve
luke 23:44
It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, 45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”[e] When he had said this, he breathed his last.

mark 15:33
At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. 34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”)
35 When some of those standing near heard this, they said, “Listen, he’s calling Elijah.”

36 Someone ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said.

37 With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.


these two accounts contradict each other.

 

[javajo]

Or perhaps they compliment each other. Put together we get a fuller picture of what happened and of all seven of Jesus' last sayings on the cross. The Holy Spirit promised he would bring these things to their remembrance, and they all had a unique slant which paints a wondrous picture of Christ's redemptive work. Its like the one's crucified with him. One account says both railed at him, one says one did and the other rebuked him. Who is to say they are both not right? They could have both started out railing at him, but the other, (like the Centurion who, seeing and hearing the event declared that surely this was the Son of God), must have repented. It shows that anyone, as the Bible says we were all enemies of Christ, may repent (change their mind about him) and believe and be completely, forever, and freely saved.

 

[james2ko]

not even close because you used matthew instead of mark...interesting...we are comparing mark and luke and you use matthew, why?

Because the parallel account in Matthew utterly refutes your pseudo contradiction of the order of Christ's comments. Which is probably why you left it out

 

[waitasec]

Because the parallel account in Matthew utterly refutes your pseudo contradiction of the order of Christ's comments. Which is probably why you left it out

you keep impressing me with your straw man tactics

there is no pseudo contradiction...there is a contradiction between luke and mark
especially when he yells why have you forsaken me in one account and
into you hands i commit my spirit...

we have 2 opposing narratives between mark and luke....

 

[javajo]

we have 2 opposing narratives between mark and luke....

Or complimentary as I suggested before. They give us all seven of Christ's sayings on the cross.

 

[Shermana]

So which ones were the last ones before he breathed his last? In what order?

 

[james2ko]

you keep impressing me with your straw man tactics
there is no pseudo contradiction...there is a contradiction between luke and markespecially when he yells why have you forsaken me in one account andinto you hands i commit my spirit...we have 2 opposing narratives between mark and luke....

Straw man? That wasn't even the topic of our discussion. You claimed an anomaly based on Christ's making the forsaken comment before the paradise comment to the thief, remember? And I proved from Matthew's account it was actually the reverse. How does the "commit my spirit" comment fit in our discussion? Speaking of straw man.. Perhaps this will refresh your memory:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2574033-post138.html

 

[javajo]

So which ones were the last ones before he breathed his last? In what order?

The traditional order of the sayings is:

1. Father forgive them, for they know not what they do (Luke 23:34).
2. Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).
3. Woman, behold your son: behold your mother (John 19:26-27).
4. My God, My God, why have you forsaken me, (Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34).
5. I thirst (John 19:28).
6. It is finished (John 19:30).
7. Father, into your hands I commit my spirit (Luke 23:46).

Traditionally, these seven sayings are called words of 1. Forgiveness, 2. Salvation, 3. Relationship, 4. Abandonment, 5. Distress, 6. Triumph and 7. Reunion.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

4] Jesus first says that he is thirsty. [Then Jesus senses withdrawn protection]
5] Why have you forsaken me? [then Jesus receives sour wine]
6] It is finished [accomplished]
7] Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.

 

[waitasec]

4] Jesus first says that he is thirsty. [Then Jesus senses withdrawn protection]
5] Why have you forsaken me? [then Jesus receives sour wine]
6] It is finished [accomplished]
7] Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.

so he offers his spirit which has been given up on, rejected and denied...

 

[waitasec]

Straw man? That wasn't even the topic of our discussion. You claimed an anomaly based on Christ's making the forsaken comment before the paradise comment to the thief, remember? And I proved from Matthew's account it was actually the reverse. How does the "commit my spirit" comment fit in our discussion? Speaking of straw man.. Perhaps this will refresh your memory:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2574033-post138.html

no i was comparing mark and luke the entire time...
nice try though...

 

[waitasec]

Sure it does...Luke's account indicates Christ's "paradise" comment to the thief was made before His "forsaken" comment:

Luk 23:40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."
Luk 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
Luk 23:44 Now it was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

Mat 27:44 Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing.
Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"
Mat 27:47 Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, "This Man is calling for Elijah!"​

Christ's paradise comment was probably said between Mat 27:44 and 45 which Luke simply omitted.

so both criminals hurled insults and then one repents and says remember me so jesus says sure, i'll and i catch you later on today in paradise. after he tells that to the thief, the thief hears jesus say god why have you denied me after he says we will meet in heaven...and then jesus says ok i'm cool with it...
this lacks something called continuity....one of these things doesn't go with the other...
but if you are ok with it...carry on.