The thief on the cross: The rule or the exception?

[james2ko]

no i was comparing mark and luke the entire time...nice try though...

But Matthew also includes an account that sheds light on the order of Christ's comments which answered your objection. Shouldn't we take all of the evidence into consideration before coming to a conclusion?

 

[waitasec]

But Matthew also includes an account that sheds light on the order of Christ's comments which answered your objection. Shouldn't we take all of the evidence into consideration before coming to a conclusion?

no actually, matthew sheds light on the discrepancy between luke and matthew...and we've gone around that one a few times.
each gospel was written for a specific audience...they were not meant to be read as a complete account...from 4 different perspectives...
for example when jesus is arrested in luke, he seems to be accepting of the situation

luke 22
47 While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, 48 but Jesus asked him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?”
49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

however in mark we have a completely different scenario, a different jesus...

mark 14
41 Returning the third time, he said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. 42 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”

here he wants to flee because he doesn't want to be executed

2 very different accounts.

 

[e.r.m.]

The following is just what I believe. When we become concerned about whether something WE failed to do, like getting baptized or any other work WE do to try to earn salvation, we are already on the wrong track. For one thing, salvation is a free gift we cannot earn. Also, we must keep the direction clear. Jesus saves us, we cannot do anything to save or help save ourselves. We bring our sin, the penalty of which is death. Jesus died, thus paying the penalty. He did all the work and gets all the glory. So the direction is from Jesus to us. Salvation is free to us but was very costly to him. He gives it freely to all who ask.

Jesus paid in full our sin debt so there is nothing else to pay. That is why salvation is by grace. Grace means totally undeserved and unmerited favor. We are the recipients and He is the donor. Keep the direction straight, from Jesus to us, and keep His grace unmixed with any work, and one will be on the right track. The good news is that salvation is received, not achieved. Again, that is all just my belief.

I respect what you believe, but I will point out a few assumptions necessary for these beliefs.

1) That in baptism we are earning and working to acheive our salvation, like a paycheck.

-Baptism does not fall in the category of works or something we do for God, it is something God does for us and falls perfectly in line with everything you said above.

2) We get glory for baptism.

-According to scriptures, God gets ALL the glory from baptism.

 

[james2ko]

Hey sorry to interrupt the discussion but has anyone heard from pwfaith recently? I think I remember her saying once she lives in Raleigh, NC and from what I understand, Irene hit the area pretty hard.

 

[waitasec]

Hey sorry to interrupt the discussion but has anyone heard from pwfaith recently? I think I remember her saying once she lives in Raleigh, NC and from what I understand, Irene hit the area pretty hard.

she was on line at 8:16 am pacific time today...
so i'm guessing she's ok...

 

[e.r.m.]

Whenever the topic of baptism is mentioned as a requirement for salvation, there is almost always one objection: the thief on the cross. The basic idea of this objection is that if this thief was saved and went to Paradise without being baptized, then so can anyone else.

My only problem with this objection is that it is an isolated incident. It is a scenario wherein Jesus specifically nominates someone for entry into paradise. Since Jesus has the authority to grant such a favor, I believe that the man truly went to Paradise. However, this happens no other place in scripture (that I'm aware of), nor does it happen today.

My question is: Does the "thief on the cross" scenario represent the rule (i.e. baptism is not required) or the exception to the rule (baptism is required)?

The conversation with the thief on the cross was the rule prior to the new covenant enacted by Jesus's death and resurrection. Jesus had authority on earth to forgive sins (Luke 5:24). Jesus forgave the parylitic, the sinful woman who washed Jesus's feet with her hair, etc. Isaiah 6:5-7 & 59:1-2 shows that sins get in the way of us and God. I'm certain the thief would not be allowed into paradise without his sins forgiven.
After Jesus' death and resurrection (Hebrews 9:16-18, 28) was a new covenant. It was at this time Jesus instructed:
(NASB)Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

and said
(NASB)Mark 16:16
"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Hence from this point baptism in Jesus name for salvation and forgiveness of sins (Acts 1:38) was the rule. We are baptized into Jesus' death and raised to a new life (Romans 6:3-4)

 

[e.r.m.]

Hey sorry to interrupt the discussion but has anyone heard from pwfaith recently? I think I remember her saying once she lives in Raleigh, NC and from what I understand, Irene hit the area pretty hard.

Wow, I hadn't caught that. I didn't know she lived there. Hope she and all her's are ok. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[javajo]

I respect what you believe, but I will point out a few assumptions necessary for these beliefs.

1) That in baptism we are earning and working to acheive our salvation, like a paycheck.

-Baptism does not fall in the category of works or something we do for God, it is something God does for us and falls perfectly in line with everything you said above.

2) We get glory for baptism.

-According to scriptures, God gets ALL the glory from baptism.

Hi. What I believe is that everyone who has trusted Christ has been baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ. As 1 Cor. 12:13 says:

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

So all believers have been baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. Then, in obedience, a believer goes and gets baptized in water. Its something they do. So, I believe it is a work. In Heaven we cannot boast about anything we did to earn salvation, for it is a free gift, paid for by Christ so he gets all the glory. If we say we "did our part" by getting baptized, performing other sacraments, rituals, works, etc., then it is not truly a free gift and we are taking some of the credit or glory. It was Christ who died and redeemed us and it is he alone that will get all the glory. That's my belief. What scriptures say God gets glory when we are baptized?

 

[e.r.m.]

Hi. What I believe is that everyone who has trusted Christ has been baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ. As 1 Cor. 12:13 says:

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

So all believers have been baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. Then, in obedience, a believer goes and gets baptized in water. Its something they do. So, I believe it is a work. In Heaven we cannot boast about anything we did to earn salvation, for it is a free gift, paid for by Christ so he gets all the glory. If we say we "did our part" by getting baptized, performing other sacraments, rituals, works, etc., then it is not truly a free gift and we are taking some of the credit or glory. It was Christ who died and redeemed us and it is he alone that will get all the glory. That's my belief. What scriptures say God gets glory when we are baptized?

I appreciate you replying. I plan on replying tomorrow. Good night.

 

[james2ko]

no actually, matthew sheds light on the discrepancy between luke and matthew...and we've gone around that one a few times.

Yeah..and apparently it's made you very dizzy...

each gospel was written for a specific audience...they were not meant to be read as a complete account...from 4 different perspectives...

Let's see if we can untangle this twisted verbage:

"each gospel was written for a specific audience from 4 different perspectives. they were not meant to be read as a complete account.." Waaala...much better
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for example when jesus is arrested in luke, he seems to be accepting of the situation

luke 22
47 While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, 48 but Jesus asked him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?”49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

mark14
41 Returning the third time, he said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. 42 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”

here he wants to flee because he doesn't want to be executed

Rise up...Let's go---,where? To meet His betrayer or fate. According to Mark and Luke, that is precisely what happened which indicates He accepted His situation. No contradiction.

however in mark we have a completely different scenario, a different jesus...2 very different accounts.

Really? All I see is a different perspective for the same account with the same Jesus.. BTW, this is way off topic. If you want to continue discussing alleged contradictions, start a thread.

:
​

 

[javajo]

I found an excellent article about the Thief on the Cross and Paradise here: Thief on the cross Here are some excerpts, but please read it all, it is short:

Jesus said to the thief on the cross who repented "Today (Present tense) you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). This thief was neither baptized nor partook of the Lords supper he believed and was promised to be with Jesus.

He did no works but only believed. This is hard to accept for those who add requirements to be saved or busy themselves to earn their way to heavens abode.

At that point in time paradise was located inside the earth in Hades which was divided into two primary parts as seen in Luke 16. The righteous went to the side called paradise (Abraham's bosom) the unrighteous went to Gehenna (hell)

When Christ ascended he led captivity captive (Eph.4:8-10), those who had waited in faith in Abraham's bosom for their sins to be removed were gathered together in another place, the new Paradise in heaven.

Those who had been waiting in faith in the compartment called Paradise (Abraham's bosom) were led in ascending to heaven with Jesus in his ascension.

After the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus paradise was moved to heaven. The area for the righteous was emptied out, now the believer goes directly to heaven. From the New Testament teaching we find that the new location of paradise is heaven.

Paul also stated before he recalled this account of his visit to the third heaven that all believers go there when they die 2 Cor.5:8 "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. not Soul sleep , not purgatory.

Jesus stated in Jn. 14:2-4 that he went ahead of us to prepare a place in heaven which is where his father dwells. That where he is we may be also.

When Stephen was martyred he looked up to heaven seeing a vision of the Lord standing- and said Lord Jesus receive my Spirit (under inspiration of the Holy Spirit). He knew he was going to be immediately transferred into heaven the location of the Lord.

Rev.2:7 "To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God which is now in heaven.In Rev.22:2 we find this tree is located in the new Jerusalem (Heb.12:22-24)

The location of paradise will again change in the future to be on the new earth, as the new Jerusalem comes down and the dwelling place of God is with man forever (Rev.21:1- Rev.22).

 

[james2ko]

I found an excellent article about the Thief on the Cross and Paradise here: Thief on the cross Here are some excerpts, but please read it all, it is short:

I guess the author owns the same bible many other Christians do. The one with the book of James and select parables of Jesus torn out.

 

[javajo]

I guess the author owns the same bible many other Christians do. The one with the book of James and select parables of Jesus torn out.

Or we understand them in light of the rest of scripture. We believe differently, I respect your beliefs and I hope you can do likewise for me. You aren't going to change my mind nor I yours. No biggie.

 

[james2ko]

Or we understand them in light of the rest of scripture. We believe differently, I respect your beliefs and I hope you can do likewise for me. You aren't going to change my mind nor I yours. No biggie.

But of course, I hope you don't take my aggressive and sometimes raw debating style personal. I may not be as wise as a serpent, but I am as harmless as a dove. (Mt 10:16)

 

[javajo]

But of course, I hope you don't take my aggressive and sometimes raw debating style personal. I may not be as wise as a serpent, but I am as harmless as a dove. (Mt 10:16)

No problem. Its just that I do love the book of James, its one of my favorite books. I also love Jesus' Parables. So you see where I was not real fond of the remark. But its cool.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I found an excellent article about the Thief on the Cross and Paradise here: Thief on the cross Here are some excerpts, but please read it all, it is short:

NO one that died before Jesus died was offered a heavenly hope. -John 3v13
That includes all after Adam, those from Genesis to Malachi.
Even king David did not ascend. -Acts 2v34

Also the thief was not baptized.

Jesus 'brothers' are offered a heavenly resurrection.
-1st Cor 15v50; Matt 25v40; Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10; 14vs3,4

There is the' little flock' and the 'other sheep' of John 10v16; Luke 12v32.

The paradisaic earth is what Daniel, David and the thief are offered.
Daniel 12vs2,13

The 'sheep' of Matthew [25v32] are offered everlasting life on earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Gehenna is not hell.
The word for hell in Hebrew is: sheol not Gehenna.
The word for hell in Greek is: hades/haides not Gehenna.

Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed.

The 'biblical hell' is the hell [sheol] where Jesus was until God resurrected Jesus.
-Acts 2vs27,31,32

Jesus believed the dead sleep in the biblical hell according to John 11vs11-14

Jesus knew and believed the Psalms which teach the dead sleep. Psa. 6v5; 13v3; 115v17.

Jesus also knew that King Solomon was known for his God-given wisdom.
Solomon wrote at Ecc. [9v5] that the dead know nothing,
which is in agreement with Jesus teaching at John chapter eleven that the dead sleep.

 

[javajo]

NO one that died before Jesus died was offered a heavenly hope. -John 3v13
That includes all after Adam, those from Genesis to Malachi.
Even king David did not ascend. -Acts 2v34

Also the thief was not baptized.

Jesus 'brothers' are offered a heavenly resurrection.
-1st Cor 15v50; Matt 25v40; Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10; 14vs3,4

There is the' little flock' and the 'other sheep' of John 10v16; Luke 12v32.

The paradisaic earth is what Daniel, David and the thief are offered.
Daniel 12vs2,13

The 'sheep' of Matthew [25v32] are offered everlasting life on earth.

Hi, thanks for sharing. I understand it differently. I believe: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness (Romans 4:3). I believe OT saints like Adam, Abraham and David were all saved by believing in God as we are. I believe they went to Paradise which when Jesus led the captives free and ascended to Heaven after the resurrection, he took them to Heaven. So, all who die in the Lord now go straight to Heaven, as Stephen said when he saw Heaven open up and prayed to Jesus asking him to receive his spirit, and Paul said it was much better to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

 

[Thief]

What about that thief?
did he go to heaven or not?

 

[javajo]

What about that thief?
did he go to heaven or not?

Yeah, thief, the thief went to paradise and Jesus then took all those in Paradise to Heaven where all believers go immediately upon death (or rapture).