Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Hi Ken, to the contrary, you have misunderstood my posts and, thereby, the Scriptures. GOD was not pleased with the disobedience of Adam and Eve. Therefore, the cursing of the ground and pain in child-birth as reminders of the displeasure of GOD with SIN/Disobedience.
One's death was/is the penalty for asserting one's authority/choice over that of the Creator GOD.
What is it about 1Pet.1:18-21 that you refuse to believe? "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. "
Hi sincerly, no, I have not misunderstood you nor the Scriptures. It is you who does not grasp what Elohim is doing. In no way does Elohim's justice require that the Innocent and Righteous blood of His Son be shed for you in your place. Here is the Truth: Elohim foreordained before the foundation of the world that He would send His Son so that all sinners could without any hesitation, put Him to death. In killing Him, and shedding His Innocent and Righteous blood, each and every sinner should be cut to the heart and realize what they have done, and then TURN from their sin. But this is according to a prescribed order, which starts with the Elect. With the Elect, this redemption by and through the shed blood of Yeshua, is an actual redemption FROM sin, to where the sinner dies with Messiah, and no longer lives as a slave to sin, but rather as a slave to righteousness. The part of Peter's verse that you do not grasp is that the redemption is from the worthless or vain way of life that a sinner lived in before they knew the Truth. Have you been redeemed out from your sinful life sincerly?
The Scriptures repeatedly express the displeasure of GOD that one SINS and looks to the sacrifice for the promised redemption, rather than to cease from the disobedience in the first place. The only (Scriptural) remedy for the death penalty imposed is a blood sacrifice----An animal in the OT and Jesus fulfilled those promises in the NT.(as Peter affirmed above).
The Scriptures require that the soul which sins shall die, and they do not require that the Innocent and Righteous be put to death in their place. In fact, there are many Scriptures which condemn the placing of the punishment upon the Innocent and Righteous, in the place of the wicked, as abominable. What Diety would punish their only Innocent and Righteous child and shed their blood just so that He would be able to forgive the wicked. Don't you know that Elohim takes no pleasure in the death of anyone, but would rather that they TURN from their sin and live. Do you really think that buckets of blood will satisfy Elohim, and convince Him to forgive you. That mentality was how the children of Israel wrongly interpreted the purpose of sacrifice, just as you have done, and only the blood of the sinner can atone for the blood they have shed (Num 35:33).
Sincerly, please look at 2 Cor 5:14...THEN ALL WERE DEAD. How were ALL dead? They had to be put to death WITH the Sacrifice. When the Life of ALL died, then all were dead, and Elohim is reconciled, not with the death of One, but with the death of ALL. Please re-think how you view the Sacrifice of Yeshua.Ken, in all the Scriptures, I fail to find one Sacrifice where the one making the sacrifice "died with the sacrifice". Also, Heb.10:4 gives this, "For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins."
Therefore, listen to John the Baptist as to who will take away one's sin---speaking of Jesus. John 1:36, 39. "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
That is what Peter is teaching above. And Jesus told Pilate, "for this cause came I into the world."
Concerning how the death of animals could not take away sin, this is true, there is no remorse or value in the shedding of an animal's blood, but with Yeshua, that is not the case, when a sinner realizes they have shed Yeshua's blood, and are cut to the heart and then a blessing occurs in that the shed blood of Yeshua causes that sinners sin to go into remission as they TURN from their iniquity (Acts 3:26). What you do not realize is that when ALL of mankind is resurrected, those who will be saved, will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child when they come to the knowledge of the Truth concerning the One whom they had pierced with their sin (Zec 12:10), and their sin will also be taken away to where they will no longer sin. This is how the Lamb of Elohim TAKES away sin. You only think He takes away the penalty of sin, not the actual sin itself. What good is it to take away a penalty when the offenders keep offending?
Ken, the ability to choose between obedience and disobedience by Man is acknowledged by GOD in Deut.30:19, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"
And Ezek.18 is concerning choices of mankind Not that GOD has induced any to Sin.
vs32, "For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye."
Sincerly, Elohim knew they would not choose obedience (Deu 31:16-21), that it was impossible for them to do so (Rom 8:7-8), and the ONLY people that can freely choose are those who have come to a Knowledge of the Truth to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). In times past, Elohim "winked" at the ignorance of choosing after other gods, but now is requiring ALL men every where to repent and choose life:
Act 17:30-31
(30) And the times of this ignorance Elohim winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
(31) Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead.
Elohim is patient, and His patience and goodness ultimately leads mankind to repentance (Rom 2:4), to where some will choose life by DOING good, but some will refuse to acknowledge the Truth and suffer wrath (Rom 2:6-9).
Yes, the Plan of Salvation is right on track, but not in agreement with your suppositions. Adam and Eve were not of a mindset of a three year old, but fully mature and intellectually with a better IQ than any (single or multiple persons)of today. "Dominion of all creation was placed in their control. No! As yet they had not seen any evidence of death, BUT Adam had seen the "Dust" from which he was made. And experienced the Life given from GOD in Eve. HE that gave Life was fully capable to take that life back.
One didn't have to experience Evil--Evil is an intruder into GOD'S Creation of LOVE.
Ken, the Scriptures just do not agree with your eisegesis.
Sincerly, Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the Knowledge of good and evil, how can you say they were fully mature and intellectually advanced BEFORE they ate from this tree, in which they became LIKE Elohim, to know good and evil (Gen 3:22). Re-think your suppositions about Adam and Eve, because knowing that they were created in corruptible, weak, and naked flesh (1 Cor 15:42-49) should reveal to you that Elohim planned for mankind to experience moral depravity (Rom 8:20) so that they could ultimately do as Elohim did, and choose the good/light (Gen 1:4). KB