The Strong Delusion

[Ken Brown]

Hi KB, Just because you fail to understand that which Jesus revealed to John in Rev.13:8 and Peter verified in 1Pet.1:18-25, doesn't mean that The innocent Blood of Jesus Christ wasn't shed for the death penalty of mankind----as GOD the Father acknowledged in John 3:16.(In the OT, that Blood was symbolized in the Shed blood of animals---a "shadow" of "the very image of Jesus". --Col. 2:11-17.)

Hi sincerly, we have two opposing views of the same Scriptures. I also believe that Yeshua was slain from the foundation of the world...disobeying the commandments of Elohim slays or kills Yeshua (John 7:19). I also believe that my shedding of Yeshua's Innocent and Righteous blood, teaches me that I can no longer dwell IN sin and continue to shed His blood, therefore, His precious blood CLEANSES me from ALL unrighteousness. Your way of looking at it is like those savages who would throw a virgin to a volcano god to placate him. My Elohim does not require the shedding of Innocent, Righteous blood to move Him to forgive, but the shedding of Innocent, Righteous blood is required to bring about the "remission/cessation" of sin in a sinners life. Your way of looking at it is delusional, my way of looking at is a how a loving parent would reason.

That being said, please explain your understanding of Elohim's Grace...The Free Gift of Righteousness. KB

 

[sincerly]

Hi sincerly, we have two opposing views of the same Scriptures. I also believe that Yeshua was slain from the foundation of the world...disobeying the commandments of Elohim slays or kills Yeshua (John 7:19). I also believe that my shedding of Yeshua's Innocent and Righteous blood, teaches me that I can no longer dwell IN sin and continue to shed His blood, therefore, His precious blood CLEANSES me from ALL unrighteousness.

Hi Ken, Yes, as I have been presenting, the blood of Jesus Christ had been promised from "before the foundation of the world". 1Pet.1:18-25 and was for the redeeming of ALL persons from Adam(with the killing of that animal for the "clothing of skin/ cleansing of the guilt by the blood) to the last person who will accept that Atoning Blood for the Atoning of their sin debt.( Which was symbolic of the death of Jesus upon the cross as that "redemption" which Peter was explaining to his readers.)

When Jesus Christ was Crucified, those Animal sacrifices ceased and the Sanctuary services ended.(Daily and annually)---(Along with circumcision).

None will be redeemed who continue to actively and willfully sin/disobey the Commandments of GOD. And ALL those who Confess their sins and repent from continuing therein will be accounted worthy to be recipients of the Father's Grace of forgiveness.

Your way of looking at it is like those savages who would throw a virgin to a volcano god to placate him. My Elohim does not require the shedding of Innocent, Righteous blood to move Him to forgive, but the shedding of Innocent, Righteous blood is required to bring about the "remission/cessation" of sin in a sinners life. Your way of looking at it is delusional, my way of looking at is a how a loving parent would reason.

You are delusional in your estimation of my view. Also, in the belief that "your shedding of Yeshua's Innocent and Righteous blood" isn't shedding the innocent blood of Jesus Christ.
Look again at the context of John 7:19, "Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? "
Jesus Didn't break the Commandments of GOD(Decalogue), but HE didn't honor the false commandments(and traditions) of the "fathers" as seem in Mark 7:1-13.

That being said, please explain your understanding of Elohim's Grace...The Free Gift of Righteousness. KB

See above.

 

[Ken Brown]

Hi Ken, Yes, as I have been presenting, the blood of Jesus Christ had been promised from "before the foundation of the world". 1Pet.1:18-25 and was for the redeeming of ALL persons from Adam(with the killing of that animal for the "clothing of skin/ cleansing of the guilt by the blood) to the last person who will accept that Atoning Blood for the Atoning of their sin debt.( Which was symbolic of the death of Jesus upon the cross as that "redemption" which Peter was explaining to his readers.)

When Jesus Christ was Crucified, those Animal sacrifices ceased and the Sanctuary services ended.(Daily and annually)---(Along with circumcision).

None will be redeemed who continue to actively and willfully sin/disobey the Commandments of GOD. And ALL those who Confess their sins and repent from continuing therein will be accounted worthy to be recipients of the Father's Grace of forgiveness.

You are delusional in your estimation of my view. Also, in the belief that "your shedding of Yeshua's Innocent and Righteous blood" isn't shedding the innocent blood of Jesus Christ.
Look again at the context of John 7:19, "Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? "
Jesus Didn't break the Commandments of GOD(Decalogue), but HE didn't honor the false commandments(and traditions) of the "fathers" as seem in Mark 7:1-13.

See above.

Hi sincerly, the Grace of Elohim is not understood properly by traditional christianity. They basically believe as you stated above and have no idea how Elohim's Grace works. Here are the basics:

1. All have sinned, and have unknowingly killed their Sacrifice, Yeshua the Messiah, through that sin.

2. By sinning, and sacrificing Yeshua, a free Gift is given to all sinners, and that free gift is the Free Gift of Righteousness. Righteousness is DOING what the Law requires. So inadvertently, all sinners have accomplished the Just requirement of the Law, by sacrificing Yeshua through their sin. They have sacrificed Yeshua and become DOERS of what the Law required them to do when they sinned unintentionally (at the time they were sinning they had no idea their sin was killing Yeshua).

3. When you increase sin, you increase this Grace, this Free Gift of Righteousness.

4. When Paul would preach of this Grace, this Free Gift of Righteousness that all sinners receive through their killing/sacrificing of Messiah, many would slanderously say that Paul wanted people to go on sinning, so something "good" would be accomplished (Rom 3:8).

5. It takes FAITH to believe in THIS Righteousness, the Righteousness we receive in the sacrifice of Yeshua, and it has nothing to do with Him dying in anyone's stead or using His death/blood to substitutionally cleanse someone.

I know this is not easily grasped sincerly. Just maybe Elohim will be gracious to you and allow you to see it. KB P.S. Look at Gal 2:17--ANYONE seeking righteousness in Messiah HAD to be a sinner!!

 

[sincerly]

Hi sincerly, the Grace of Elohim is not understood properly by traditional christianity. They basically believe as you stated above and have no idea how Elohim's Grace works. Here are the basics:

1. All have sinned, and have unknowingly killed their Sacrifice, Yeshua the Messiah, through that sin.

2. By sinning, and sacrificing Yeshua, a free Gift is given to all sinners, and that free gift is the Free Gift of Righteousness. Righteousness is DOING what the Law requires. So inadvertently, all sinners have accomplished the Just requirement of the Law, by sacrificing Yeshua through their sin. They have sacrificed Yeshua and become DOERS of what the Law required them to do when they sinned unintentionally (at the time they were sinning they had no idea their sin was killing Yeshua).

3. When you increase sin, you increase this Grace, this Free Gift of Righteousness.

4. When Paul would preach of this Grace, this Free Gift of Righteousness that all sinners receive through their killing/sacrificing of Messiah, many would slanderously say that Paul wanted people to go on sinning, so something "good" would be accomplished (Rom 3:8).

5. It takes FAITH to believe in THIS Righteousness, the Righteousness we receive in the sacrifice of Yeshua, and it has nothing to do with Him dying in anyone's stead or using His death/blood to substitutionally cleanse someone.

I know this is not easily grasped sincerly. Just maybe Elohim will be gracious to you and allow you to see it. KB P.S. Look at Gal 2:17--ANYONE seeking righteousness in Messiah HAD to be a sinner!!

Hi Ken, This is another of your not understanding the context regarding that one text(Rom.3:8).
All who seek for righteousness are "sinners"---"there is none righteous--no not one".Rom.3:10.

2Peter 1:10 has some admonition for your understanding(which is lacking in the above). "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: "

 

[Ken Brown]

Hi Ken, This is another of your not understanding the context regarding that one text(Rom.3:8).
All who seek for righteousness are "sinners"---"there is none righteous--no not one".Rom.3:10.

2Peter 1:10 has some admonition for your understanding(which is lacking in the above). "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: "

Hi sincerly, it all boils down to Elohim's plan. Most think Adam and Eve were sinless/perfect, with no inclination to sin, and that is not the truth. Adam and Eve were created just like the rest of us, with tendencies and desires towards sin. This was caused by the flesh and it was planned by Elohim. All you have to do is give the flesh a command and it is automatic, there is sin. Elohim planned that mankind be created in darkness and sin so that a lesson could be learned. He had to let us experience sin--to be "consigned" to sin, and then He graciously delivers those whom He calls out from that bondage. The catalyst that delivers us is our involvement and role in murdering and sacrificing His Innocent and Righteous Son. This deliverance, this redemption is accomplished by us sacrificing His Son. Once you recognize your role in causing Him to suffer so, what other course of action do you have but to "turn" from your sin. This is the BLESSING we receive from Elohim (Acts 3:25-26), and the basis for turning our sin into righteousness, according to His Grace.

In this plan, Yeshua was the LIFE of all. All things existed THROUGH Him, and nothing that was living had life outside of Him. I know that is hard to understand, but it's true, and this is how Paul could teach that when Yeshua died, ALL DIED. Paul no longer viewed anyone as living after Messiah's death, unless they believed and buried their dead bodies in baptism. Messiah claimed that when He would be lifted up, He would DRAW all to Him. All were drawn INTO His death, and ALL died when He died. This was the true purpose of Sacrifice, to put the sinner to death and when the sacrifice died, the sinner died also. This is what reconciles Elohim. All sinners were put to death when Yeshua died, and this is how it should be viewed. It is a just view of how sin can be atoned for. The Scriptures are very clear, you don't kill the Innocent and Righteous in the PLACE of the wicked, it is an abomination to do so. To shed Innocent and Righteous blood is an abomination. The Abomination which causes Desolation was the murdering of Yeshua, and a total and complete desolation occurred....all died. When and if you see this sincerly, flee from your sin unto the mountains of Righteousness, and pray that your flight occurs before the Sabbath Day begins. KB

 

[sincerly]

Hi sincerly, it all boils down to Elohim's plan.

Yes, but that which you are presenting isn't it. Thanks, but NO Thanks for more of the serpent's falseness.

 

[Ken Brown]

Yes, but that which you are presenting isn't it. Thanks, but NO Thanks for more of the serpent's falseness.

Hi sincerly, I hate to see you depart. But I am certain that someday we will discuss this further. KB

 

[sincerly]

Hi sincerly, it all boils down to Elohim's plan. Most think Adam and Eve were sinless/perfect, with no inclination to sin, and that is not the truth. Adam and Eve were created just like the rest of us, with tendencies and desires towards sin. This was caused by the flesh and it was planned by Elohim. All you have to do is give the flesh a command and it is automatic, there is sin. Elohim planned that mankind be created in darkness and sin so that a lesson could be learned. He had to let us experience sin--to be "consigned" to sin, and then He graciously delivers those whom He calls out from that bondage. The catalyst that delivers us is our involvement and role in murdering and sacrificing His Innocent and Righteous Son. This deliverance, this redemption is accomplished by us sacrificing His Son. Once you recognize your role in causing Him to suffer so, what other course of action do you have but to "turn" from your sin. This is the BLESSING we receive from Elohim (Acts 3:25-26), and the basis for turning our sin into righteousness, according to His Grace.

Hi KB, I haven't departed. I spent some time with relatives out-of state. Let's examine that which you have posted more closely and in context with the Scriptures as a whole. After all, GOD started with the origins and revealed to Moses the purpose and reasons for the fall of mankind and the "Plan" for the restorations of all things to the initial state of the Creation which was to be "for HIS pleasure".(Rev.4:11)
Yes, GOD had a plan and it will be fully complimented/completed.(But it was NOT as you outlined above.) GOD never intended for HIS Creation to suffer and die. That is the reason the tree of life was in the Garden of Eden. Not to be an antidote for death, but to remind the human race that GOD is the "giver of life.""Sustainer".
The The tree of "good and evil" was only to be a reminder that the act of disobedience was subject to death(not just physical death--which is evidence that one on their on effort cannot prevent death and decay from occurring,---but eternal death.--which only GOD has supplied the Redeeming price to restore one to being "born again"---By the "Blood" and the water----Jesus supplying Both the sacrificial Blood and the "Living Water". John 3:16

ALL have the ability to choose to obey or by arrogance and defiance to refuse the plan GOD Provided. Adam and Eve choose the accept that "promised" sacrificial Lamb "Slain from before the foundation of the world."---in wearing those skins of the slain animal as coverings of their nakedness-(exposed wickedness.) Gen.3:21

Your above reasoning is the same type of reasoning which was used to beguiled Eve.
GOD Didn't set Mankind up to fail. That would mean that Jesus was set up to die and suffer(as the Scriptures state) by the Father---And that reasoning isn't Scripturally correct.

Yes, Jesus died for the "Guilt/disobedience of all sinners", but it is only those who accept that Shed Blood who will escape the "eternal death"/(have the Blood on their temple's door-posts.)

The "catalyst" which delivers one from the Guilt of disobedience is "Confessing one's sins, Repenting of them and living in submission to the Will of the Father" who acknowledges HIS SON'S Blood which is lovingly applied to the heart's door-posts and Graciously pardons.

In this plan, Yeshua was the LIFE of all. All things existed THROUGH Him, and nothing that was living had life outside of Him. I know that is hard to understand, but it's true, and this is how Paul could teach that when Yeshua died, ALL DIED. Paul no longer viewed anyone as living after Messiah's death, unless they believed and buried their dead bodies in baptism. Messiah claimed that when He would be lifted up, He would DRAW all to Him. All were drawn INTO His death, and ALL died when He died. This was the true purpose of Sacrifice, to put the sinner to death and when the sacrifice died, the sinner died also. This is what reconciles Elohim. All sinners were put to death when Yeshua died, and this is how it should be viewed. It is a just view of how sin can be atoned for. The Scriptures are very clear, you don't kill the Innocent and Righteous in the PLACE of the wicked, it is an abomination to do so. To shed Innocent and Righteous blood is an abomination. The Abomination which causes Desolation was the murdering of Yeshua, and a total and complete desolation occurred....all died. When and if you see this sincerly, flee from your sin unto the mountains of Righteousness, and pray that your flight occurs before the Sabbath Day begins. KB

Since Adam and Eve Were subject to the second death before any Children were bore, ALL of mankind was and is "dead in trespasses and Sins" as Paul indicated.

ALL Died when Adam and Eve died, as seen above. All were given Life by the Second Adam(Rom.5)---JESUS--in HIS death(Giving of HIS Life's Blood.)
Jesus was Innocent and Righteous and it was HIS shed Blood/Giving of HIS LIFE which was the atonement/Remission of sins / and the Reconciliation of all things to the Father.

Scripturally, When one sees/understands one's state of being in an adverse condition to the Condition which GOD desires, then one flees to Jesus for the "blotting out/ washing" in the only solution which cleanses--the Atoning blood of Jesus.

 

[Ken Brown]

Hi KB, I haven't departed. I spent some time with relatives out-of state. Let's examine that which you have posted more closely and in context with the Scriptures as a whole. After all, GOD started with the origins and revealed to Moses the purpose and reasons for the fall of mankind and the "Plan" for the restorations of all things to the initial state of the Creation which was to be "for HIS pleasure".(Rev.4:11)
Yes, GOD had a plan and it will be fully complimented/completed.(But it was NOT as you outlined above.) GOD never intended for HIS Creation to suffer and die. That is the reason the tree of life was in the Garden of Eden. Not to be an antidote for death, but to remind the human race that GOD is the "giver of life.""Sustainer".
The The tree of "good and evil" was only to be a reminder that the act of disobedience was subject to death(not just physical death--which is evidence that one on their on effort cannot prevent death and decay from occurring,---but eternal death.--which only GOD has supplied the Redeeming price to restore one to being "born again"---By the "Blood" and the water----Jesus supplying Both the sacrificial Blood and the "Living Water". John 3:16

ALL have the ability to choose to obey or by arrogance and defiance to refuse the plan GOD Provided. Adam and Eve choose the accept that "promised" sacrificial Lamb "Slain from before the foundation of the world."---in wearing those skins of the slain animal as coverings of their nakedness-(exposed wickedness.) Gen.3:21

Your above reasoning is the same type of reasoning which was used to beguiled Eve.
GOD Didn't set Mankind up to fail. That would mean that Jesus was set up to die and suffer(as the Scriptures state) by the Father---And that reasoning isn't Scripturally correct.

Yes, Jesus died for the "Guilt/disobedience of all sinners", but it is only those who accept that Shed Blood who will escape the "eternal death"/(have the Blood on their temple's door-posts.)

The "catalyst" which delivers one from the Guilt of disobedience is "Confessing one's sins, Repenting of them and living in submission to the Will of the Father" who acknowledges HIS SON'S Blood which is lovingly applied to the heart's door-posts and Graciously pardons.

Since Adam and Eve Were subject to the second death before any Children were bore, ALL of mankind was and is "dead in trespasses and Sins" as Paul indicated.

ALL Died when Adam and Eve died, as seen above. All were given Life by the Second Adam(Rom.5)---JESUS--in HIS death(Giving of HIS Life's Blood.)
Jesus was Innocent and Righteous and it was HIS shed Blood/Giving of HIS LIFE which was the atonement/Remission of sins / and the Reconciliation of all things to the Father.

Scripturally, When one sees/understands one's state of being in an adverse condition to the Condition which GOD desires, then one flees to Jesus for the "blotting out/ washing" in the only solution which cleanses--the Atoning blood of Jesus.

Hi Sincerly, there are a few things you should reconsider.

1. The word used for "naked" with Adam and Eve in Gen 2:25, is almost the identical Hebrew word used to describe the serpent in the next verse, only it is in it's singular form, instead of plural. The translators couldn't grasp that fact and translated the word "subtle" instead of naked. Either Adam and Eve were "subtle," and the serpent the MOST subtle, or Adam and Eve were "naked," and the serpent was the MOST naked. The point being is that Adam and Eve were just like the rest of mankind in the nakedness or subtlety of their flesh, and as being like a beast (Psa 73:22), Adam and Eve were like Satan, in their sinful (naked/subtle) condition, as Satan was the MOST naked/subtle beast of the field. And if you are like Satan, you will do his deeds, (John 8:44), and be a slave to sin. A slave does not have free choice, but can only do his/her's master's bidding, and anyone who commits sin, is a slave of it (John 8:34). Didn't Adam and Eve commit sin?

2. Elohim consigned/shut up ALL in disobedience (Rom 11:32), by creating us flesh, and then giving a command to Adam and Eve. This was His plan, and He subjected mankind to this disobedience, not according to the creations desire, but rather His own:

Rom 8:20-21
(20) For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but through Him subjecting it, on hope;
(21) that also the creation will be freed from the slavery of corruption to the freedom of the glory of the children of Elohim.

The word used for "vanity" in v. 20 means "moral depravity." The creation was subjected to "moral depravity" not of it's own choice, but by the will of the One who subjected it. This was Elohim's plan, and He desires that those who are subjected to this "moral depravity," come to a knowledge of the Truth concerning what that sin causes, the shed blood of His Son, and then BE TURNED from that condition/iniquity (Acts 3:26).

3. As all sinners bear the image of the 1st Adam, all who are delivered OUT from their iniquity, will bear the image of the Last Adam. How is that the the Spiritual Man was not FIRST, but the natural or carnal man in Elohim's plan? Please consider what Paul states here about Adam and how all of mankind bear his image:

1Co 15:42-49
(42) So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
(43) It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
(44) It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(45) So also it has been written, "The" first "man", Adam, "became a living soul;" the last Adam a life-giving Spirit. Gen. 2:7
(46) But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.
(47) The first man was out of earth, earthy. The second Man was the Lord out of Heaven. Gen. 2:7
(48) Such as is the earthy man, such also are the earthy ones. And such as is the heavenly Man, such also are the heavenly ones.
(49) And as we bore the image of the earthy man, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Sincerly, how clearer could Paul be? He is saying that natural, earthy man was sown in corruption, dishonor, and weakness, and that was the FIRST Adam. The FIRST Adam was not sown in perfection and sinlessness, it's the exact opposite. And as Adam was created the "earthy" man, so are all of his offspring. The fact that in Elohim's plan the earthy or natural man was FIRST, and not the 2nd/Last Adam (the Spiritual MAN), should be a telling point to you. The Spiritual Man, the Sinless Man, and Perfect Man was NOT first, but the disobedient man was, all according to His WILL and plan.

4. Before any understanding of how the Blood of Yeshua saves a sinner FROM their sin, the proper understanding of how man was FIRST made to dwell in darkness as BLIND sinners, and THEN through the Sacrifice of the Messiah, delivered OUT from that blindness, corruption and decay of sinfulness.

KB

 

[sincerly]

Hi Sincerly, there are a few things you should reconsider.

Hi KB, Your exegesis of this subject and these Scriptures are NOT among them.

1. The word used for "naked" with Adam and Eve in Gen 2:25, is almost the identical Hebrew word used to describe the serpent in the next verse, only it is in it's singular form, instead of plural. The translators couldn't grasp that fact and translated the word "subtle" instead of naked. Either Adam and Eve were "subtle," and the serpent the MOST subtle, or Adam and Eve were "naked," and the serpent was the MOST naked. The point being is that Adam and Eve were just like the rest of mankind in the nakedness or subtlety of their flesh, and as being like a beast (Psa 73:22), Adam and Eve were like Satan, in their sinful (naked/subtle) condition, as Satan was the MOST naked/subtle beast of the field. And if you are like Satan, you will do his deeds, (John 8:44), and be a slave to sin. A slave does not have free choice, but can only do his/her's master's bidding, and anyone who commits sin, is a slave of it (John 8:34). Didn't Adam and Eve commit sin?

Ken, "Almost" doesn't make them equal/ of the same meaning. "arowm" has the meaning of "naked"; "bare"; and to include "barely clad".
"aruwm" means "crafty";"subtil"; "prudent" and the serpent's intent in context was anything ,but bare/naked. Eve recognized that fact---after the fact--"The serpent beguiled me."(She chose to believe the lie.)
It wasn't the "flesh" that covered one's bones that did the reasoning, but as James stated (1:13-15), "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
And that was Eve's plight---lust leading to disobedience and death.
Adam wasn't deceived ,but willingly took from Eve and Ate.

As Jesus said, one is a slave to the master one chooses to obey. (And that obedience is a choice----NOT mandatory--one can REPENT.)

2. Elohim consigned/shut up ALL in disobedience (Rom 11:32), by creating us flesh, and then giving a command to Adam and Eve. This was His plan, and He subjected mankind to this disobedience, not according to the creations desire, but rather His own:

Rom 8:20-21
(20) For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but through Him subjecting it, on hope;
(21) that also the creation will be freed from the slavery of corruption to the freedom of the glory of the children of Elohim.

The word used for "vanity" in v. 20 means "moral depravity." The creation was subjected to "moral depravity" not of it's own choice, but by the will of the One who subjected it. This was Elohim's plan, and He desires that those who are subjected to this "moral depravity," come to a knowledge of the Truth concerning what that sin causes, the shed blood of His Son, and then BE TURNED from that condition/iniquity (Acts 3:26).

See above. "ALL" is were "consigned/shut-up in disobedience" not because GOD had planned it that way, but because of mankind's choice. That "tree of life" was in the Garden to be there for eternity---It was NOT to be taken away without man's disobedience---and it will again be restored to the promised earth made new.

Look at Rom.8:20-21 in the light of 3:9-19. The "creatures" are all of GOD'S Creation and looking forward to that day when all things will be restored to that Eden's perfection.

3. As all sinners bear the image of the CST Adam, all who are delivered OUT from their iniquity, will bear the image of the Last Adam. How is that the the Spiritual Man was not FIRST, but the natural or carnal man in Elohim's plan? Please consider what Paul states here about Adam and how all of mankind bear his image:

1Co 15:42-49
(42) So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
(43) It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
(44) It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(45) So also it has been written, "The" first "man", Adam, "became a living soul;" the last Adam a life-giving Spirit. Gen. 2:7
(46) But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.
(47) The first man was out of earth, earthy. The second Man was the Lord out of Heaven. Gen. 2:7
(48) Such as is the earthy man, such also are the earthy ones. And such as is the heavenly Man, such also are the heavenly ones.
(49) And as we bore the image of the earthy man, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Sincerly, how clearer could Paul be? He is saying that natural, earthy man was sown in corruption, dishonor, and weakness, and that was the FIRST Adam. The FIRST Adam was not sown in perfection and sinlessness, it's the exact opposite. And as Adam was created the "earthy" man, so are all of his offspring. The fact that in Elohim's plan the earthy or natural man was FIRST, and not the 2nd/Last Adam (the Spiritual MAN), should be a telling point to you. The Spiritual Man, the Sinless Man, and Perfect Man was NOT first, but the disobedient man was, all according to His WILL and plan.

Ken, you are ignoring the Genesis 1:26-27 for your own eisegesis. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them..."

Also, Lucifer was created perfect until iniquity was found in him---that iniquity was of his own making---NOT a chosen trait by GOD.

It was not GOD'S Plan that any of mankind should ever die.(Nor any of the angels.) GOD is the GOD OF LOVE.

4. Before any understanding of how the Blood of Yeshua saves a sinner FROM their sin, the proper understanding of how man was FIRST made to dwell in darkness as BLIND sinners, and THEN through the Sacrifice of the Messiah, delivered OUT from that blindness, corruption and decay of sinfulness.

KB

You understanding is filled with darkness and blindness as seen above, however, It is the Sacrifice of the Messiah--Jesus Christ-- whose Blood is and will cleanse ALL in need of the ultimate make-over to that "Very Good"/"Acceptable state which is seen in 1Cor.15:51-58.

 

[Ken Brown]

Hi KB, Your exegesis of this subject and these Scriptures are NOT among them.

Ken, "Almost" doesn't make them equal/ of the same meaning. "arowm" has the meaning of "naked"; "bare"; and to include "barely clad".
"aruwm" means "crafty";"subtil"; "prudent" and the serpent's intent in context was anything ,but bare/naked. Eve recognized that fact---after the fact--"The serpent beguiled me."(She chose to believe the lie.)
It wasn't the "flesh" that covered one's bones that did the reasoning, but as James stated (1:13-15), "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
And that was Eve's plight---lust leading to disobedience and death.
Adam wasn't deceived ,but willingly took from Eve and Ate.

As Jesus said, one is a slave to the master one chooses to obey. (And that obedience is a choice----NOT mandatory--one can REPENT.)

See above. "ALL" is were "consigned/shut-up in disobedience" not because GOD had planned it that way, but because of mankind's choice. That "tree of life" was in the Garden to be there for eternity---It was NOT to be taken away without man's disobedience---and it will again be restored to the promised earth made new.

Look at Rom.8:20-21 in the light of 3:9-19. The "creatures" are all of GOD'S Creation and looking forward to that day when all things will be restored to that Eden's perfection.

Ken, you are ignoring the Genesis 1:26-27 for your own eisegesis. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them..."

Also, Lucifer was created perfect until iniquity was found in him---that iniquity was of his own making---NOT a chosen trait by GOD.

It was not GOD'S Plan that any of mankind should ever die.(Nor any of the angels.) GOD is the GOD OF LOVE.

You understanding is filled with darkness and blindness as seen above, however, It is the Sacrifice of the Messiah--Jesus Christ-- whose Blood is and will cleanse ALL in need of the ultimate make-over to that "Very Good"/"Acceptable state which is seen in 1Cor.15:51-58.

Hi sincerly, man, currently, IS the image of Elohim, but not with respect to perfection or sinlessness, rather with respect to the body and it's members. Man has never lost that image, we are still the image and glory of Elohim (1 Cor 11:7), even though we are carnal. When Elohim created man in His image, He was creating something in the physical realm that mirrored Him. In the image of Elohim He created them, male and female He created them, and this mirrors or is a replication of Elohim's male and female aspect of Himself within Messiah and the Church.

On the other hand, with mankind bearing the image of Adam, that IS with respect to the carnal, weak, and corrupt nature as Paul points out in 1 Cor 15. Paul also points out that Messiah is the EXACT or EXPRESS image of Elohim (Heb 1:3, 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:15-16), and Adam and Eve were NOT as the Messiah because they had to come FIRST, and then the Messiah, according to Elohim's plan (1 Cor 15:46). So you need to re-examine what it means to be in the image of Elohim, and the image of Adam.

One final thing. You should really consider that the things which Elohim has created, speak about the unseen or invisible aspects of Him:

Rom 1:19-20
(19) For what can be known about Elohim is plain to them, because Elohim has shown it to them.
(20) For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

One such attribute that Elohim has, is revealed by how He created man with an "immune" system. With that immune system, the body can build defenses against antigens which have come into prior contact with the body. Those diseases are defeated by the body working together to destroy the invading antigen. This whole process of the immune system pictures how in Elohim's plan, carnal sin (the sin of the flesh) was used as an antigen to allow and help the Body build up defenses against the Spiritual counterpart of that sin. The word "immune" comes from the Latin word "immunis," meaning: free. Elohim truly wants us to be "free" from sin, with a healtly "immune" system that is totally in agreement with His values and judgments, and this is found IN Messiah and His Body.

Peter makes a very interesting statement:

1Pe 4:1-2
(1) Since therefore Messiah suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
(2) so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of Elohim.

2Ti 3:12
(12) Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Messiah Yeshua will be persecuted,

You see sincerly, once one suffers in the flesh for doing the will of Elohim, they are made stronger by that conviction and repentance, and are set free from their sin (their 'immune" system is working). It is as Paul and John states:

Rom 6:2
(2) Elohim forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

1Jn 3:9
(9) Whosoever is born of Elohim doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of Elohim.

Now, if we claim that we have NEVER sinned, we make Him a liar, because that is the way ALL flesh was created by Elohim, including Adam and Eve. And it is through the suffering, death, burial, and 3rd day resurrection of Messiah, that we are being STRENGTHENED and SET FREE from the pollutions of this world as we no longer dwell in active disobedience and sin. Now, if we have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of Yeshua's suffering and death, and rise up INTO His Life but then are AGAIN entangled and OVERCOME, then the latter end is worse than the beginning, and it would have been better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness than to have known it, and then turned from it:

2Pe 2:20-22
(20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour Yeshua Messiah, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Elohim's plan was for carnal man to dwell in darkness and fleshly sin so that He could teach us both good and evil and help us overcome the evil, and choose the good in His Beloved Son. The plan was never to just create man with no knowledge of good and evil and expect him to somehow automatically be perfect and sinless. KB

 

[sincerly]

Hi sincerly, man, currently, IS the image of Elohim, but not with respect to perfection or sinlessness, rather with respect to the body and it's members. Man has never lost that image, we are still the image and glory of Elohim (1 Cor 11:7), even though we are carnal. When Elohim created man in His image, He was creating something in the physical realm that mirrored Him. In the image of Elohim He created them, male and female He created them, and this mirrors or is a replication of Elohim's male and female aspect of Himself within Messiah and the Church.

Hi Ken, my computer has been acting up----this is my third attempt at answering this post. The Lord willing I'll be able to send it this time.
The information/doctrines you are presenting are patterned after that which the serpent was presenting to Eve. The Scriptures which you gave are Correct, BUT the eisegesis by you is with the intent to deceive/are delusional.
Yes, Mankind was clothed in "flesh"---skin and bones--- but Adam traded the Spiritual covering he had for the "carnal aspect" offered by the serpent with his disobedience.
GOD was pleased with HIS Creation at the end of Creation Week and had settled into a rest/ceasing from creating with the establishing of the seventh day Sabbath which GOD Blessed and Sanctified.

Let's look at how Paul uses rhe word "carnal" in respect to the way a child of GOD should live/walk/be in a proper relationship with his CREATOR. There are Ten verses in the NT.(But in context---more are seen.)

Rom.7:14, "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. -"

Rom.8:6,7, "For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

Rom.15:27, "It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things."

1Cor.3:1-4, "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?"

2Cor.10:3-5, "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"

Heb.7:16, "Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life."

Heb.9:10,"[Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation."

Ken, in context, those verses show a distinct difference between one's "carnal mind"(Rom.8:6; 2Cor.1:17; Phil.3:15; James1:8; 4:8) and that of being God Focused/"Spiritual minded".
It is the Decalogue which IS SPIRITUAL and shows the LOVE TO AND FOR GOD AND MANKIND. ALL lust is toward self and therefore---"carnal."

Wasn't that the focus of the serpent's deception? "Eve saw"---"the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life?"

On the other hand, with mankind bearing the image of Adam, that IS with respect to the carnal, weak, and corrupt nature as Paul points out in 1 Cor 15. Paul also points out that Messiah is the EXACT or EXPRESS image of Elohim (Heb 1:3, 2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:15-16), and Adam and Eve were NOT as the Messiah because they had to come FIRST, and then the Messiah, according to Elohim's plan (1 Cor 15:46). So you need to re-examine what it means to be in the image of Elohim, and the image of Adam.

Ken, Jesus Christ ,the Messiah, was who created Adam and Eve. Again what you are posting is your own eisegesis and NOT a true exegegis.

One final thing. You should really consider that the things which Elohim has created, speak about the unseen or invisible aspects of Him:

I fail to see any evidence that your knowledge of the subject should be "considered". The Scriptures give an opposite plan and picture of GOD'S MESSAGE.

 

[Ken Brown]

Hi Ken, my computer has been acting up----this is my third attempt at answering this post. The Lord willing I'll be able to send it this time.
The information/doctrines you are presenting are patterned after that which the serpent was presenting to Eve. The Scriptures which you gave are Correct, BUT the eisegesis by you is with the intent to deceive/are delusional.
Yes, Mankind was clothed in "flesh"---skin and bones--- but Adam traded the Spiritual covering he had for the "carnal aspect" offered by the serpent with his disobedience.
GOD was pleased with HIS Creation at the end of Creation Week and had settled into a rest/ceasing from creating with the establishing of the seventh day Sabbath which GOD Blessed and Sanctified.

Let's look at how Paul uses rhe word "carnal" in respect to the way a child of GOD should live/walk/be in a proper relationship with his CREATOR. There are Ten verses in the NT.(But in context---more are seen.)

Rom.7:14, "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. -"

Rom.8:6,7, "For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

Rom.15:27, "It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things."

1Cor.3:1-4, "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?"

2Cor.10:3-5, "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"

Heb.7:16, "Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life."

Heb.9:10,"[Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation."

Ken, in context, those verses show a distinct difference between one's "carnal mind"(Rom.8:6; 2Cor.1:17; Phil.3:15; James1:8; 4:8) and that of being God Focused/"Spiritual minded".
It is the Decalogue which IS SPIRITUAL and shows the LOVE TO AND FOR GOD AND MANKIND. ALL lust is toward self and therefore---"carnal."

Wasn't that the focus of the serpent's deception? "Eve saw"---"the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life?"

Ken, Jesus Christ ,the Messiah, was who created Adam and Eve. Again what you are posting is your own eisegesis and NOT a true exegegis.

I fail to see any evidence that your knowledge of the subject should be "considered". The Scriptures give an opposite plan and picture of GOD'S MESSAGE.

Hi sincerly, pray tell, what is going to keep you from becoming like Adam and Eve when you enter into life? KB

 

[sincerly]

Hi sincerly, pray tell, what is going to keep you from becoming like Adam and Eve when you enter into life? KB

My Prayer is that like Adam and Eve I will have the good sense to accept that "Robe of Righteousness"(of Jesus Christ) which that animal's skin represented.

 

[Ken Brown]

My Prayer is that like Adam and Eve I will have the good sense to accept that "Robe of Righteousness"(of Jesus Christ) which that animal's skin represented.

Hi sincerly, so then you plan on being able to exercise your free will and choose disobedience as you think Adam and Eve did freely chose to do, and then accept a substitutional robe? You see, here is where you really don't get it, IF you have not choosen perfection, you will not enter into life. You will be like those who freely choose death after they become like Elohim, knowing good and evil, and choosing the evil:

Rev 21:6-8
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his Elohin, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Sincerly, the Truth that you need to find, is that you MUST overcome, and IF you don't, it would have been better for you to have never known the "way" of RIGHTEOUSNESS, than to have known it and TURNED from it:

2Pe 2:20-22
(20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour Messiah Yeshua, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Can't you see? The PLAN of Elohim was to deliver us OUT of sin. His plan required that we start out eating our own vomit, and wallowing in the mire, but according to His PLAN, He has redeemed us OUT of that corruption and way of death INTO a LIFE that is TURNED AWAY from iniquity. It's a simple plan with a simple message, repent and live, for Elohim's Kingdom is at hand. KB

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
My Prayer is that like Adam and Eve I will have the good sense to accept that "Robe of Righteousness"(of Jesus Christ) which that animal's skin represented.

Hi sincerly, so then you plan on being able to exercise your free will and choose disobedience as you think Adam and Eve did freely chose to do, and then accept a substitutional robe? You see, here is where you really don't get it, IF you have not choosen perfection, you will not enter into life. You will be like those who freely choose death after they become like Elohim, knowing good and evil, and choosing the evil:

Rev 21:6-8
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his Elohin, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Sincerly, the Truth that you need to find, is that you MUST overcome, and IF you don't, it would have been better for you to have never known the "way" of RIGHTEOUSNESS, than to have known it and TURNED from it:

2Pe 2:20-22
(20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour Messiah Yeshua, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Can't you see? The PLAN of Elohim was to deliver us OUT of sin. His plan required that we start out eating our own vomit, and wallowing in the mire, but according to His PLAN, He has redeemed us OUT of that corruption and way of death INTO a LIFE that is TURNED AWAY from iniquity. It's a simple plan with a simple message, repent and live, for Elohim's Kingdom is at hand. KB

Hi Ken, Yes, GOD'S PLAN is a simple message and has been from the first verses of Genesis. GOD is LOVE and that Love has been demonstrated throughout the pages of the Bible/Holy Scriptures.
You read my post above and concluded a message that certainly was NOT my Beliefs when I posted it nor now.

You left out mankind's ability to do the Choosing--- Eve know what GOD had said about the Tree. She, also, have listened to the Serpents arguments and explanations of the "benefits of the "tree". Therefore, she did freely make a choice. GOD had given her the Truth in Love. The serpent had lied, in Eve's defense the environment of TRUTH had been the "norm" for the "pair" until the serpent submitted to be used by that arrival of the "father of lies"/the "one cast out of heaven". She was "beguiled"/deceived. Adam wasn't deceived, but took from Eve(another human Being willfully).

Yes. GOD had made an escape from the penalty of Death of the quilt by the Confessing of one's Sins(acknowledging of the fact); Repenting of them; Submitting one's self then th the GOD who would in "Grace" forgive all who would accept HIS Son's Death for their "penalty" debt.
In the OT that exchange was seen in the Sacrificial system of the sanctuary. In the NT, it was seen in Jesus' declaration to Pilate---"for this cause came I into this world."---HIS Crucifixion.
The Scriptures from Genesis to the end of Revelation reveals and proclaims that simple Truth.

Ken, the "Overcomer" is the one who has seen their need for the exchanging of the "death decree" for the "pardon" offered. The "dying daily" to self; and the putting away of the little sins which so easily besets one" is what one does do after the repenting and cleansing by the blood of Jesus.That "robe of righteousness" is only given to the one who has been made "perfect" in the eyes of the Father by HIM/GOD seeing the "Righteous Blood of HIS SON Jesus Christ".

 

[yoda89]

Originally Posted by sincerly
My Prayer is that like Adam and Eve I will have the good sense to accept that "Robe of Righteousness"(of Jesus Christ) which that animal's skin represented.



Hi Ken, Yes, GOD'S PLAN is a simple message and has been from the first verses of Genesis. GOD is LOVE and that Love has been demonstrated throughout the pages of the Bible/Holy Scriptures.
You read my post above and concluded a message that certainly was NOT my Beliefs when I posted it nor now.

You left out mankind's ability to do the Choosing--- Eve know what GOD had said about the Tree. She, also, have listened to the Serpents arguments and explanations of the "benefits of the "tree". Therefore, she did freely make a choice. GOD had given her the Truth in Love. The serpent had lied, in Eve's defense the environment of TRUTH had been the "norm" for the "pair" until the serpent submitted to be used by that arrival of the "father of lies"/the "one cast out of heaven". She was "beguiled"/deceived. Adam wasn't deceived, but took from Eve(another human Being willfully).

Yes. GOD had made an escape from the penalty of Death of the quilt by the Confessing of one's Sins(acknowledging of the fact); Repenting of them; Submitting one's self then th the GOD who would in "Grace" forgive all who would accept HIS Son's Death for their "penalty" debt.
In the OT that exchange was seen in the Sacrificial system of the sanctuary. In the NT, it was seen in Jesus' declaration to Pilate---"for this cause came I into this world."---HIS Crucifixion.
The Scriptures from Genesis to the end of Revelation reveals and proclaims that simple Truth.

Ken, the "Overcomer" is the one who has seen their need for the exchanging of the "death decree" for the "pardon" offered. The "dying daily" to self; and the putting away of the little sins which so easily besets one" is what one does do after the repenting and cleansing by the blood of Jesus.That "robe of righteousness" is only given to the one who has been made "perfect" in the eyes of the Father by HIM/GOD seeing the "Righteous Blood of HIS SON Jesus Christ".

GODs love of drowning people? GODs love of placing city in fire? GODs love of killers other and making wages with the devil. If that isn't love I don't know what is. Gee I drown the ones I love. I do it to save them. Do you drown the ones you love place them into pits of fire? Seems like an all loving being to me. If humans have choice why is there laid out plan. Is praying to him and asking for to change that plan just because you want a raise or that new car?

 

[sincerly]

GODs love of drowning people? GODs love of placing city in fire? GODs love of killers other and making wages with the devil. If that isn't love I don't know what is. Gee I drown the ones I love. I do it to save them. Do you drown the ones you love place them into pits of fire? Seems like an all loving being to me. If humans have choice why is there laid out plan. Is praying to him and asking for to change that plan just because you want a raise or that new car?

Hi yoda, Scripturally, there was NO EVIL in the world which GOD Created until mankind choose to Disobey---Right?
GOD did not Create mankind to destroy any one. Death came about by the choice/decision since they were warned that the consequence of such action would end in "death". That is the Scriptural penalty---Right?
In LOVE, Noah preached the message of repentance and that the consequence for NOT heeding and getting aboard that saving prepared ARK that they would die. Did those who heard that 120 years of warning heed the message/warning---NO. Therefore, the death by drowning was the fault of those who chose not to Obey.

ALL throughout the Scriptures, one is shown that the ONE IN AUTHORITY is the Creator GOD and it is HIS Laws one is to submit to in Obedience. Obey and Live. It is HIS Creation and is NOT owned by HIS creatures. One has freedom to choose anything that is within HIS WILL. Choosing to be in contradiction to HIS WILL is outside of one's "freedom" range.

One's attitude and accountability will determine whether or not a raise or new car is in the future.

One is under the strong delusion when they believe that GOD'S LOVE allows them to be in disobedience to HIS WILL.

 

[Ken Brown]

Originally Posted by sincerly
My Prayer is that like Adam and Eve I will have the good sense to accept that "Robe of Righteousness"(of Jesus Christ) which that animal's skin represented.

Hi Ken, Yes, GOD'S PLAN is a simple message and has been from the first verses of Genesis. GOD is LOVE and that Love has been demonstrated throughout the pages of the Bible/Holy Scriptures.
You read my post above and concluded a message that certainly was NOT my Beliefs when I posted it nor now.

You left out mankind's ability to do the Choosing--- Eve know what GOD had said about the Tree. She, also, have listened to the Serpents arguments and explanations of the "benefits of the "tree". Therefore, she did freely make a choice. GOD had given her the Truth in Love. The serpent had lied, in Eve's defense the environment of TRUTH had been the "norm" for the "pair" until the serpent submitted to be used by that arrival of the "father of lies"/the "one cast out of heaven". She was "beguiled"/deceived. Adam wasn't deceived, but took from Eve(another human Being willfully).

Yes. GOD had made an escape from the penalty of Death of the quilt by the Confessing of one's Sins(acknowledging of the fact); Repenting of them; Submitting one's self then th the GOD who would in "Grace" forgive all who would accept HIS Son's Death for their "penalty" debt.
In the OT that exchange was seen in the Sacrificial system of the sanctuary. In the NT, it was seen in Jesus' declaration to Pilate---"for this cause came I into this world."---HIS Crucifixion.
The Scriptures from Genesis to the end of Revelation reveals and proclaims that simple Truth.

Ken, the "Overcomer" is the one who has seen their need for the exchanging of the "death decree" for the "pardon" offered. The "dying daily" to self; and the putting away of the little sins which so easily besets one" is what one does do after the repenting and cleansing by the blood of Jesus.That "robe of righteousness" is only given to the one who has been made "perfect" in the eyes of the Father by HIM/GOD seeing the "Righteous Blood of HIS SON Jesus Christ".

Hi sincerely, you are following the same error as the children of Israel in thinking that Elohim is pleased or satisfied by the shedding of innocent blood (on their part with animal's blood and your part with a man's blood). The True purpose for sacrifice was to allow the sinner to die WITH the sacrifice, instead of the sacrifice taking the place of the sinner. You have it all backwards.

Your other error concerns the fact that you think mankind has the ability to choose obedience. Why do you think mankind has that ability? Why hasn't anyone used their free will and made the choice to be obedient? The truth of the matter is that obedience can only occur when a sinner comes to the Knowledge of the Truth concerning what their sin did cause (Yeshua's suffering and death). Only THEN can someone be free to choose LIFE and RIGHTEOUSNESS, otherwise, they are BOUND under sin and have no freedom to choose. The same can be said of how the first two were created. Adam and Eve were like 3 year olds who would be told by their parent to not eat the M&M's left on the table, and then leave the room. What choice would that 3 year old have in being obedient and not eating the M&M's? When are you going to properly understand how mankind was created? When you do, THEN you might be able to properly understand the salvation that is found in the Messiah. Elohim is teaching and training mankind to be like Him, to know good and evil, and then freely choose the good, and His plan is right on track and working to perfection. KB

 

[sincerly]

Hi sincerely, you are following the same error as the children of Israel in thinking that Elohim is pleased or satisfied by the shedding of innocent blood (on their part with animal's blood and your part with a man's blood).

Hi Ken, to the contrary, you have misunderstood my posts and, thereby, the Scriptures. GOD was not pleased with the disobedience of Adam and Eve. Therefore, the cursing of the ground and pain in child-birth as reminders of the displeasure of GOD with SIN/Disobedience.
One's death was/is the penalty for asserting one's authority/choice over that of the Creator GOD.
What is it about 1Pet.1:18-21 that you refuse to believe? "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. "

The Scriptures repeatedly express the displeasure of GOD that one SINS and looks to the sacrifice for the promised redemption, rather than to cease from the disobedience in the first place. The only (Scriptural) remedy for the death penalty imposed is a blood sacrifice----An animal in the OT and Jesus fulfilled those promises in the NT.(as Peter affirmed above).

The True purpose for sacrifice was to allow the sinner to die WITH the sacrifice, instead of the sacrifice taking the place of the sinner. You have it all backwards.

Ken, in all the Scriptures, I fail to find one Sacrifice where the one making the sacrifice "died with the sacrifice". Also, Heb.10:4 gives this, "For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins."
Therefore, listen to John the Baptist as to who will take away one's sin---speaking of Jesus. John 1:36, 39. "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
That is what Peter is teaching above. And Jesus told Pilate, "for this cause came I into the world."

Your other error concerns the fact that you think mankind has the ability to choose obedience. Why do you think mankind has that ability? Why hasn't anyone used their free will and made the choice to be obedient? The truth of the matter is that obedience can only occur when a sinner comes to the Knowledge of the Truth concerning what their sin did cause (Yeshua's suffering and death). Only THEN can someone be free to choose LIFE and RIGHTEOUSNESS, otherwise, they are BOUND under sin and have no freedom to choose.

Ken, the ability to choose between obedience and disobedience by Man is acknowledged by GOD in Deut.30:19, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"
And Ezek.18 is concerning choices of mankind Not that GOD has induced any to Sin.
vs32, "For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye."

The same can be said of how the first two were created. Adam and Eve were like 3 year olds who would be told by their parent to not eat the M&M's left on the table, and then leave the room. What choice would that 3 year old have in being obedient and not eating the M&M's? When are you going to properly understand how mankind was created? When you do, THEN you might be able to properly understand the salvation that is found in the Messiah. Elohim is teaching and training mankind to be like Him, to know good and evil, and then freely choose the good, and His plan is right on track and working to perfection. KB

Yes, the Plan of Salvation is right on track, but not in agreement with your suppositions. Adam and Eve were not of a mindset of a three year old, but fully mature and intellectually with a better IQ than any (single or multiple persons)of today. "Dominion of all creation was placed in their control. No! As yet they had not seen any evidence of death, BUT Adam had seen the "Dust" from which he was made. And experienced the Life given from GOD in Eve. HE that gave Life was fully capable to take that life back.

One didn't have to experience Evil--Evil is an intruder into GOD'S Creation of LOVE.
Ken, the Scriptures just do not agree with your eisegesis.