The Strong Delusion

[Ken Brown]

This question is for anyone. Is it proper and just to kill or murder the Righteous and Innocent in place of the wicked, so that the wicked can have their sin forgiven? And along the same lines, those of you who are parents, do you spank your only good child so that you will be able to forgive your disobedient children? KB

 

[Shiranui117]

This question is for anyone. Is it proper and just to kill or murder the Righteous and Innocent in place of the wicked, so that the wicked can have their sin forgiven? And along the same lines, those of you who are parents, do you spank your only good child so that you will be able to forgive your disobedient children? KB

No, it isn't.

 

[savagewind]

This question is for anyone. Is it proper and just to kill or murder the Righteous and Innocent in place of the wicked, so that the wicked can have their sin forgiven? And along the same lines, those of you who are parents, do you spank your only good child so that you will be able to forgive your disobedient children? KB

Is your question really why Christians have faith in God, that God is just and wise? Why do people of faith believe God is just and wise but allowed the murder of His Son which has resulted in God's will be done, which is justice for all? I don't know.

 

[outhouse]

This question is for anyone. Is it proper and just to kill or murder the Righteous and Innocent in place of the wicked, so that the wicked can have their sin forgiven? And along the same lines, those of you who are parents, do you spank your only good child so that you will be able to forgive your disobedient children? KB

The confusion brought on by passages like these thought to have been written by one of Paul's followers according to many scholars, is the exact reason why you should study what a professor teaches, so that you can place this in the proper context.

That's not a question, it is questions. I find them both questionable that you even asked such when you should factually know the proper answers.

What are your real motives here?


Here is the passage OP is placing in question.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Second Epistle to the Thessalonians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The best understanding of 2 Thessalonians ... is to see it as a deliberate imitation of 1 Thessalonians, updating the apostle's thought.".

 

[Ken Brown]

Is your question really why Christians have faith in God, that God is just and wise? Why do people of faith believe God is just and wise but allowed the murder of His Son which has resulted in God's will be done, which is justice for all? I don't know.

Hi savagewind, Elohim's will is against the shedding of Innocent blood and the murdering of the Righteous, and He in no way would require it to justify the wicked:
(Ex 23:7) Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

In fact, it is an abomination:

(Prov 17:15) He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both [are] abomination to Yahweh.

So it appears that those who believe Elohim's Justice would require the murder or killing of the Righteous and Innocent in their place, are under a strong delusion. And it is a very hard delusion to come out from. KB

 

[Gjallarhorn]

So it appears that those who believe Elohim's Justice would require the murder or killing of the Righteous and Innocent in their place, are under a strong delusion. And it is a very hard delusion to come out from. KB

Would that not also include Jesus? He believed he had to die to enact God's will.

 

[Ken Brown]

The confusion brought on by passages like these thought to have been written by one of Paul's followers according to many scholars, is the exact reason why you should study what a professor teaches, so that you can place this in the proper context.

That's not a question, it is questions. I find them both questionable that you even asked such when you should factually know the proper answers.

What are your real motives here?

Here is the passage OP is placing in question.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Second Epistle to the Thessalonians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The best understanding of 2 Thessalonians ... is to see it as a deliberate imitation of 1 Thessalonians, updating the apostle's thought.".

Hi outhouse, that Wikipedia link also gives evidence that 2 Thessalonians was an authentic letter from Paul, and that is not at all my issue with the Strong Delusion.

Concerning the Yale professor, he has no capability to properly discern what Paul writes, at least from what I have listened to so far. Oh, and my motives are to help have a better understanding of the Strong Delusion. KB

 

[Ken Brown]

Would that not also include Jesus? He believed he had to die to enact God's will.

Hi Gjallarhorn, then I guess one should determine what Elohim's will is concerning the shedding of Innocent blood. Does shedding Innocent blood satisfy His Justice? You know, it may be Elohim's will that someone suffer and die, but there may be an ulterior motive for that suffering and death other than to satisfy the scales of justice?

(Prov 11:1) A false balance [is] abomination to Yahweh: but a just weight [is] his delight.

Just maybe there is something else going on in the suffering and death of Yeshua, which is according to Elohim's will, that requires that sinners FLEE from sin when they SEE the false scales and unjust balances that were used against Yeshua. And IF that happens, a possible blessing may be given in turning sinners from their sin:

(Acts 3:26) Unto you first Elohim, having raised up his Son Yeshua, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

There is big difference in turning sinners from their sin, instead of having a substitute shed their Righteous and Innocent blood in the place of those sinners. KB

 

[Gjallarhorn]

There is big difference in turning sinners from their sin, instead of having a substitute shed their Righteous and Innocent blood in the place of those sinners. KB

And yet, the act is still a justification of sin. Specifically, God's own sin.

 

[Ken Brown]

And yet, the act is still a justification of sin. Specifically, God's own sin.

Hi Gjallarhorn, you will have to explain that justification to me. What are the mechanics of it, how does it work? How does shedding Innocent blood justify? KB

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Hi Gjallarhorn, you will have to explain that justification to me. What are the mechanics of it, how does it work? How does shedding Innocent blood justify? KB

Shedding the blood of Jesus (an innocent) justified God's ends. Now, if it's fine for God to break his own rules, ignore me.

 

[Ken Brown]

Shedding the blood of Jesus (an innocent) justified God's ends. Now, if it's fine for God to break his own rules, ignore me.

Hi Gjallarhor, "God's ends?" What do you mean by that? KB

 

[crossfire]

This question is for anyone. Is it proper and just to kill or murder the Righteous and Innocent in place of the wicked, so that the wicked can have their sin forgiven? And along the same lines, those of you who are parents, do you spank your only good child so that you will be able to forgive your disobedient children? KB

Well, since this question is for anyone, I'll quote Buddha:

Kalama Sutta
7. "What do you think, Kalamas? Does delusion appear in a man for his benefit or harm?" — "For his harm, venerable sir." — "Kalamas, being given to delusion, and being overwhelmed and vanquished mentally by delusion, this man takes life, steals, commits adultery, and tells lies; he prompts another too, to do likewise. Will that be long for his harm and ill?" — "Yes, venerable sir."
8. "What do you think, Kalamas? Are these things good or bad?" — "Bad, venerable sir" — "Blamable or not blamable?" — "Blamable, venerable sir." — "Censured or praised by the wise?" — "Censured, venerable sir." — "Undertaken and observed, do these things lead to harm and ill, or not? Or how does it strike you?" — "Undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill. Thus it strikes us here."​

 

[crossfire]

Shedding the blood of Jesus (an innocent) justified God's ends. Now, if it's fine for God to break his own rules, ignore me.

God didn't kill Jesus. The deluded folks in Jerusalem at the time did. Did it snap us out of our delusion? **looks around**

 

[savagewind]

Hi savagewind, Elohim's will is against the shedding of Innocent blood and the murdering of the Righteous, and He in no way would require it to justify the wicked:
(Ex 23:7) Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

In fact, it is an abomination:

(Prov 17:15) He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both [are] abomination to Yahweh.

So it appears that those who believe Elohim's Justice would require the murder or killing of the Righteous and Innocent in their place, are under a strong delusion. And it is a very hard delusion to come out from. KB

YHVH is not murder HIS SON nor did HE cause it. I am sure what caused The Lord's death is popular opinion. YHVH allowed the death of HIS SON to show the whole world that to move away from popular opinion is the right way to go.

 

[Falvlun]

So it appears that those who believe Elohim's Justice would require the murder or killing of the Righteous and Innocent in their place, are under a strong delusion. And it is a very hard delusion to come out from. KB

Would that not also include Jesus? He believed he had to die to enact God's will.

That's a good point. If the sacrifice is a willing one-- volunteers for the job, so to speak-- I think that negates some of the questionable morality surrounding the sacrifice of an innocent for that of the guilty.

Though, in general, I do think the whole system that required that such a sacrifice take place at all is not a just, merciful, loving, or well-thought out one, as you would expect from an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent being.

 

[crossfire]

YHVH is not murder HIS SON nor did HE cause it. I am sure what caused The Lord's death is popular opinion. YHVH allowed the death of HIS SON to show the whole world that to move away from popular opinion is the right way to go.

Well if killing the righteous in order to make yourself look righteous is popular opinion, I would pretty much say that would fall under the category of delusion.

 

[crossfire]

Here's an interesting scripture that fits in with delusion and popular opinion:

Luke 9:51-56
51 Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, 52 and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him. 53 But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. 54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”

55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.” And they went to another village.​

Compare this to 2 Thess 2 where the deluded lawless ones would perform false miracles, sign and wonders (verse 9) because they enjoyed unrighteousness (verse 12,) and to Rev 13, where the "beast of the earth" also performs great signs, even calling down fire from heaven in front of people. (verse 13)

While I do agree with you that the performing of wonderous signs might be to influence popular opinion in 2 Thess 2 and Rev 13, the disciples asking if they should call down fire from heaven was because they didn't like the popular opinion, and were trying to go against it, instead of just letting it be as Jesus said.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Hi Gjallarhor, "God's ends?" What do you mean by that? KB

"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

Whatever reason God needed Jesus to die is his ends (goal). His ends are supposed to justify his means (killing an innocent), right? So that must mean God isn't subject to his own rules.

 

[savagewind]

Well if killing the righteous in order to make yourself look righteous is popular opinion, I would pretty much say that would fall under the category of delusion.

They did know they were killing the righteous. Some knew. Most, I am positive, did not know. I am also very sure they did not do it to "look righteous". The scripture makes it clear the ones who knew what they were doing did it to keep their position. Do you want the scripture?