The "Speaking French Tax".....Right Or Wrong?

[4consideration]

I'd say that you're on topic.
No "oops" allowed!

I don't think I was on topic. If it's a political debate, I think the issue becomes about whether or not a private business has the right to do what they want within their own establishment, provided it does not involve fraud, harm, etc. Yes, I think they do.

If they establish a policy and make it known to the customer prior to the customer being obligated to pay for the meal -- even if they whisper in the customer's ear "We are serving oxymoron today. We going to charge you a gratuity charge (aka gift charge) of 15% for speaking French -- if you don't get up and leave this restaurant right now." I'd have to say that it was known and agreed to beforehand, so OK. I think it would be incredibly rude, but I also think it is rude to add a charge to someone's bill that they may not know about or agree to.

IMO if the policy of applying a charge for gratuity is arbitrary and is not clear to the customer (like on the menu) before ordering, I don't think that it is right -- and may border on coercion or fraud (or some similar unpleasantness that I can't think of a better word for at the moment.)

Actually, I think its mildly thuggish. "You are going to give me a 15% gift. You do not have a choice about it. It's how we do things around here."

I think that the argument for what is customary may work somewhat for the expectation of a tip, but do not see how it can justify the action of adding a charge if it is not customary for the customer -- especially when the charge actually means "gift". A gift and a charge are two different things. One is voluntary. The other is not.

gratuity
1. (Business / Commerce) a gift or reward, usually of money, for services rendered; tip
2. something given without claim or obligation

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think I was on topic. If it's a political debate, I think the issue becomes about whether or not a private business has the right to do what they want within their own establishment, provided it does not involve fraud, harm, etc. Yes, I think they do.

If they establish a policy and make it known to the customer prior to the customer being obligated to pay for the meal -- even if they whisper in the customer's ear "We are serving oxymoron today. We going to charge you a gratuity charge (aka gift charge) of 15% for speaking French -- if you don't get up and leave this restaurant right now." I'd have to say that it was known and agreed to beforehand, so OK. I think it would be incredibly rude, but I also think it is rude to add a charge to someone's bill that they may not know about or agree to.

IMO if the policy of applying a charge for gratuity is arbitrary and is not clear to the customer (like on the menu) before ordering, I don't think that it is right -- and may border on coercion or fraud (or some similar unpleasantness that I can't think of a better word for at the moment.)

Actually, I think its mildly thuggish. "You are going to give me a 15% gift. You do not have a choice about it. It's how we do things around here."

I think that the argument for what is customary may work somewhat for the expectation of a tip, but do not see how it can justify the action of adding a charge if it is not customary for the customer -- especially when the charge actually means "gift". A gift and a charge are two different things. One is voluntary. The other is not.

gratuity
1. (Business / Commerce) a gift or reward, usually of money, for services rendered; tip
2. something given without claim or obligation

I have some restaurants posting their tipping policy, especially for larger parties (which are prone to tipping less).

 

[4consideration]

I have some restaurants posting their tipping policy, especially for larger parties (which are prone to tipping less).

I have no problem with it when the policy is made known -- like for larger parties -- so that the customer can make an informed decision. I only object to slipping it in on the customer at the end of the transaction.

It has happened to me that a server adds a 15% gratuity and it is not a large party situation. I don't recall ever making a fuss about it. I plan to tip about 20% as a matter of course. But I do recall reacting by saying something like, "Oh well, they just saved me some money and math." I usually tip more than 15%, but not if the whole option regarding tipping is taken from me without my knowledge or consent by adding it to the bill arbitrarily.

 

[Shermana]

Actually, I think its mildly thuggish. "You are going to give me a 15% gift. You do not have a choice about it. It's how we do things around here."

Pure and simple extortion, boycott restaraunts, learn to cook and save money!

 

[NIX]

I believe waiters would collectively make more money if people woke up to how stupid tipping was and they had to be paid a base pay that everyone else gets. It shows how badly this pretensious "voluntary tipping" concept has gotten out of hand when they are allowed to pay waiters far less than standard in expectation of this voluntary-generosity. Tipping more only will exasperate this problem.

If the restaurants pay the servers a living wage, the price of your meal will compensate for it.

 

[NIX]

Pure and simple extortion, boycott restaraunts, learn to cook and save money!

You think people don't know how to cook? They go out and dine both for the EXPERIENCE of it and the convenience. There are all kinds of dining experiences, and all kinds of people who like them. Servers work their ***** off, especially when it's busy. It most certainly is NOT extortion to pay them. If you don't want to pay them, please, and I mean this- don't eat out. But on the other hand, why the hell do you care what other people do? What do you care if they like to go eat out for their own personal reasons, whatever they may be? Obviously you have some larger restaurant agenda. Seems like a waste of (mental) energy to me. Do your thing, and don't trouble yourself about other people doing theirs. (that's my tip, for you)

 

[Alceste]

Being allowed to do something, & finding it worth doing are 2 different things.
Charging staff for theft by others risks demoralizing the staff, & increasing turnover.
Training new waiters is expensive. So an employer must balance costs & benefits of policies.
Even if the waiters' pay is high enuf to make tolerating such a theft policy worth it, they won't feel that way.

I agree with you, but it has not been my experience that most business owners would agree with you. If they did, there would be no need for the communities they operate in to impose reasonable labour regulations at all. Remember, most people are below average intelligence.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree with you, but it has not been my experience that most business owners would agree with you. If they did, there would be no need for the communities they operate in to impose reasonable labour regulations at all. Remember, most people are below average intelligence.

You wouldn't be suffering from excess cynicism, would you?

 

[4consideration]

Pure and simple extortion, boycott restaraunts, learn to cook and save money!

If the matter of tipping is treated with graciousness, and as the "gift" that it is intended to be, I do not see it as extortion. If it is treated graciously, which includes recognition that it is voluntary -- I think it is a very nice custom.

If it is slipped in on the bill when not made known as policy, or if a lack of a tip is used as an excuse to pressure, embarass or chastise a customer -- or as justification for doing something gross -- like spitting on the food -- that is just wrong.

BTW, my husband and I both cook very well. In our family we often play the, "what would I expect/be willing to pay for this in a restaurant" game. But, we do really enjoy eating out in a restaurant, as well.

 

[Alceste]

You wouldn't be suffering from excess cynicism, would you?

Perhaps suffering from excess work experience in both the public and private sector, and in some of the smallest businesses and largest corporations in the country. As a general rule, the less skill needed for any job, the more abusive the work conditions are, because employees are easy to replace. The smaller the business, the less likely it is to receive a living wage, or benefits, since at that level the owner is primarily thinking about what is best for himself and his family. Large corporations invest more in human resources, including training, benefits, holiday pay and some degree of concern for things like morale, but the employees are still at the mercy of the whims of their managers. Union jobs tend to pay best, with the best benefits and working conditions, and public sector or non-profit workplaces have the healthiest workplace dynamic.

I get around round get around, I get around, Ooooh ooh ooh Ooooh...

 

[Revoltingest]

Perhaps suffering from excess work experience in both the public and private sector, and in some of the smallest businesses and largest corporations in the country. As a general rule, the less skill needed for any job, the more abusive the work conditions are, because employees are easy to replace. The smaller the business, the less likely it is to receive a living wage, or benefits, since at that level the owner is primarily thinking about what is best for himself and his family. Large corporations invest more in human resources, including training, benefits, holiday pay and some degree of concern for things like morale, but the employees are still at the mercy of the whims of their managers. Union jobs tend to pay best, with the best benefits and working conditions, and public sector or non-profit workplaces have the healthiest workplace dynamic.
I get around round get around, I get around, Ooooh ooh ooh Ooooh...

Hmmm....I've had many a menial job when younger, & was always treated quite fairly
by my employers, even the ones I didn't like. Different corners of the world, perhaps.

 

[Shermana]

You think people don't know how to cook? They go out and dine both for the EXPERIENCE of it and the convenience. There are all kinds of dining experiences, and all kinds of people who like them. Servers work their ***** off, especially when it's busy. It most certainly is NOT extortion to pay them. If you don't want to pay them, please, and I mean this- don't eat out. But on the other hand, why the hell do you care what other people do? What do you care if they like to go eat out for their own personal reasons, whatever they may be? Obviously you have some larger restaurant agenda. Seems like a waste of (mental) energy to me. Do your thing, and don't trouble yourself about other people doing theirs. (that's my tip, for you)

Here we have a perfect example of the Thuggery mentality.

Here, NIX is saying that it's not Extortion to "pay" your waiter.

He has just equated "tipping" with paying.

Need I say more?

(PS I have to wonder who has the agenda here, are you a waiter? I think I've implied that I avoid restaraunts btw, though I do have an agenda against GMO food which 99.999% of restaraunts serve with a smile, probably with waiter saliva as a garnish to boot!)

I repeat myself, AVOID restaraunts, or you are contributing to the promotion of such thuggery.

 

[Wirey]

French people are bad tippers? Really? That's not my experience. Maybe you Yankee doodles are just lousy waiters.

 

[Revoltingest]

Maybe the French think that miming the payment of a tip is enuf, eh?

 

[Wirey]

Maybe the French think that miming the payment of a tip is enuf, eh?

Ah, the old "18% a la Marcel Marceau'.

[youtube]WULsZJxPfws[/youtube]
French Canada - YouTube

 

[Alceste]

Hmmm....I've had many a menial job when younger, & was always treated quite fairly
by my employers, even the ones I didn't like. Different corners of the world, perhaps.

Different eras, perhaps. The situation has been deteriorating for labour and the middle class since the seventies, when the economic and political elites of the West started drinking the Kool-aid of free trade. When you're competing with labour in China or India, you are expected to accept the working conditions they have in China or India.

 

[Shermana]

Different eras, perhaps. The situation has been deteriorating for labour and the middle class since the seventies, when the economic and political elites of the West started drinking the Kool-aid of free trade. When you're competing with labour in China or India, you are expected to accept the working conditions they have in China or India.

And this is another major factor to consider.

It seems most of the "good old days" people have not yet registered the fact that the "good old days" were much, much easier than nowadays.

I would go so far as to say the Baby Boomers were spoiled rotten compared to the economic conditions of the day, it would be nice if they woke up to the times. Unfortunately, most of them think its just as easy to "go get a job and make something of yourself" in the days of NAFTA and China and 2x the population and 400% the education costs inflation-adjusted as well as insane regulations that made the easy business start ups of the 60-80s look like nothing. I have to wonder if they don't want to adapt to the times because it deprives them of the ego power of telling people why it's their own fault.

 

[Alceste]

And this is another major factor to consider.

It seems most of the "good old days" people have not yet registered the fact that the "good old days" were much, much easier than nowadays.

I would go so far as to say the Baby Boomers were spoiled rotten compared to the economic conditions of the day, it would be nice if they woke up to the times. Unfortunately, most of them think its just as easy to "go get a job and make something of yourself" in the days of NAFTA and China and 2x the population and 400% the education costs inflation-adjusted as well as insane regulations that made the easy business start ups of the 60-80s look like nothing. I have to wonder if they don't want to adapt to the times because it deprives them of the ego power of telling people why it's their own fault.

I would say they are definitely more spoiled rotten the further back you go. My grandmother told me the cost of her first piece of property was the equivalent of three months of my grandfather's income at the time. She didn't do that math, I did - she was doing the whole "I just don't understand why young people these days are so careless with their money! In my day, bla bla bla" thing and told us what that piece of property cost, and how much my grandfather made (she even pulled out the paperwork - their first deed and his first income tax receipt). What took three months of income to buy then would takes us roughly ten years to buy now - and that's TOTAL income. They've never had a mortgage, and their property flipping and investments let them raise 4 kids, then retire at 55 as millionaires. She's been retired longer than she ever worked, and she LOVES to complain about how young people have no work ethic.

In my parents' generation, a degree almost always got you a job in your chosen field, straight out of school. Fewer people went to university to begin with and there was high demand for educated professionals. They usually didn't need student loans either, because tuition was much more affordable. These days, university graduates are trying to pay of tens of thousands of dollars worth of student loans with jobs at Starbucks, or taking "apprenticeships" that sometimes pay NOTHING AT ALL in their desperation to get a foot in the door in their professional industry of choice.

OTOH, my parents generation is not nearly as bad as my grandparents generation when it comes to complaining about young people. They have more intimate knowledge of what their own kids have gone through, and are going through, and of course there's a certain amount of worry that we (IOW, young people) will not be able to pay for their retirement or health care on the crappy incomes we earn now, or look after them in the cramped, dilapidated houses we can barely afford.

 

[Shermana]

In addition, look at what's costing America almost 3 trillion a year:

SS, Medicare and Medicaid.

Hmmmm...

It appears that the current national debt problem is also caused by these same seniors whose favorite thing to do is blame the current generation. I think I should make a whole thread about this.

Not only that but the rates they get SS payments compared to the rates our generation will is hardly well known. They get a HUGE investment bonus, while our generation will make about 1/2 of what they pay in.

Factor in that many of the best jobs are locked up by overpaid boomers, which is why few of our generation can get the lucrative jobs beyond Starbucks.

And few of them like to invest in domestic corporations that employ people I've noticed.

Not to find a scapegoat here or anything, but is it fair to make a conclusion about a certain demographic here?

 

[Alceste]

In addition, look at what's costing America almost 3 trillion a year:

SS, Medicare and Medicaid.

Hmmmm...

It appears that the current national debt problem is also caused by these same seniors whose favorite thing to do is blame the current generation. I think I should make a whole thread about this.

Not only that but the rates they get SS payments compared to the rates our generation will is hardly well known. They get a HUGE investment bonus, while our generation will make about 1/2 of what they pay in.

Factor in that many of the best jobs are locked up by overpaid boomers, which is why few of our generation can get the lucrative jobs beyond Starbucks.

And few of them like to invest in domestic corporations that employ people I've noticed.

Not to find a scapegoat here or anything, but is it fair to make a conclusion about a certain demographic here?

I think so, as long as the demographic is "people" and the conclusion is "are selfish idiots".