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The Slippery Slope: Has it gone too far?

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Last year, a young Dutch lady was busily crossing calendar days off a whiteboard in her home, in expectation of the big day. She made sure to pencil in last-minute trips with her loved ones, days for her favourite hobby arts and crafts, and even a few bike rides in her local park - she was, after all, a very fit and healthy woman and by all accounts, had an outwardly nice life.

But she bore a silent agony, having struggled on and off with clinical depression since the age of 12, psychosis, borderline personality disorder and suicidal thoughts. She was often distressed and would habitually self-harm. And in this state of mind, which - unlike her body was not healthy - this young woman had made a decision and ticked a box giving her consent.

Finally, the day she had been awaiting for months arrived. She entered a clinic, carrying a toy dinosaur in her arms, lay down on a bed in a white room and drank poison supplied by a doctor. And so, with medical assistance, at the age of 29, Aurelia - fit, healthy and not in any physical pain but in a very poor state of mental capacity - was voluntarily euthanized.

The case sparked controversy in the Netherlands, a country where euthanasia has been legal for 20 years and is generally viewed as a test case for the practise. The law was originally passed for patients experiencing “unbearable suffering with no prospect of improvement”. No matter our own views on euthanasia, whether prefixed on secular or religious grounds, I'm sure that we can all see the rationale of granting voluntary euthanasia to a person with terminal lung cancer, for instance, whether or not we think it should be legal.

But Aurelia's case is altogether more troubling and becoming more routine. Everyone in the Netherlands now seems to have known someone who has been euthanized. “In the coldest weeks of last winter,” Dr. Theo Boer told the Guardian newspaper, “a doctor friend of mine was told by an elderly patient: ‘I demand to have euthanasia this week – you promised.’ The doctor replied: ‘It’s -15C outside. Take a bottle of whisky and sit in your garden and we will find you tomorrow, because I cannot accept that you make me responsible for your own suicide." This doctor, Boer said, once performed euthanasia three times annually. He has now stopped altogether, part of a growing caucus of medical professionals who are questioning whether it does now conflict with their Hippocratic Oath.

"How could I know - how could anybody know - that her death wish was not a sign of her psychiatric disease? The fact that one can rationalise about it, does not mean it's not a sign of the disease," said psychiatrist Dr Frank Koerselman, with regards to Aurelia.

The sad case of Aurelia is not an isolated aberration either. Many healthcare professionals in the Netherlands are beginning to worry about the unforeseen ramifications that euthanasia is having in their country and wider culture. Last year, in the wake of Aurelia's case, a medical ethicist called Berna Van Baarsen publicly resigned from one of the review boards at the 'End of Life' clinic in protest at the growing rate at which dementia sufferers were being euthanized on the basis of written directives that they are unable to confirm after losing their faculties. “It is fundamentally impossible,” she told the newspaper Trouw, “to establish that the patient is suffering unbearably, because he can no longer explain it.”

In one widely distributed case, a dementia sufferer had asked to be killed when the “time was right” (a shockingly vague request) in an advance directive. Her doctor then judged the time "to be right" but the patient resisted, vigorously, claiming that she was still of sound mental capacity to know when she wanted to die, and that she didn't want to die. In response, she was drugged and physically restrained by her family until she submitted to the doctor’s fatal injection.

When this case came to review, the doctor who administered the fatal dose – whose identity has been concealed under law, in case the doctor is subjected to public attack – has defended their actions by saying that it was in strict fulfilment of the patient’s prior request and that, since the patient was "incompetent", her protests before death were irrelevant, as heartrending as the spectacle of a woman being dragged to her death, seemingly unwillingly, might have proved for all involved.

Now, I am a Catholic and so anticipate that some will deem my perspective on this matter to be incorrigibly biased by my religious principles. That is perfectly fine, I don't deny that my faith tradition influences my moral judgement in this area. But the doctors I have mentioned here do not fall into that category - they were, and still are to an extent, supporters of euthanasia in principle. Yet they think it has gone too far and worry that the "slippery slope" argument has proved right after all, with perhaps irreparable damage being done to Dutch societal approaches to the experience of death.

At what point does "the right to die with dignity" become the mark of a culture that has lost respect for the dignity of human life? What does the act of killing a physically healthy young person, or an old person with dementia who no longer wants to die but is deemed unfit to withdraw consent, tell us about our own views of human wellbeing?

What do you think about this issue? Is euthanasia or its cognate assisted dying legal in your country or state? If not, do you think it should be? Why or why not?
 
Last edited:

Jumi

Well-Known Member
The science is not quite there yet. There are people whose suffering is unbearable. I've seen it first hand, though they only had to suffer that pain for a few months with a rare glimpse of consciousness.

Last year I was quite close to the place of no return myself, so something like that is fresh in memory.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Last year, a young Dutch lady was busily crossing calendar days off a whiteboard in her home, in expectation of the big day. She made sure to pencil in last-minute trips with her loved ones, days for her favourite hobby arts and crafts, and even a few bike rides in her local park - she was, after all, a very fit and healthy woman and by all accounts, had an outwardly nice life.

But she bore a silent agony, having struggled on and off with clinical depression since the age of 12, psychosis, borderline personality disorder and suicidal thoughts. She was often distressed and would habitually self-harm. And in this state of mind, which - unlike her body was not healthy - this young woman had made a decision and ticked a box giving her consent.

Finally, the day she had been awaiting for months arrived. She entered a clinic, carrying a toy dinosaur in her arms, lay down on a bed in a white room and drank poison supplied by a doctor. And so, with medical assistance, at the age of 29, Aurelia - fit, healthy and not in any physical pain but in a very poor state of mental capacity - was voluntarily euthanized.

The case sparked controversy in the Netherlands, a country where euthanasia has been legal for 20 years and is generally viewed as a test case for the practise. The law was originally passed for patients experiencing “unbearable suffering with no prospect of improvement”. No matter our own views on euthanasia, whether prefixed on secular or religious grounds, I'm sure that we can all see the rationale of granting voluntary euthanasia to a person with terminal lung cancer, for instance, whether or not we think it should be legal.

But Aurelia's case is altogether more troubling and becoming more routine. Everyone in the Netherlands now seems to have known someone who has been euthanized. “In the coldest weeks of last winter,” Dr. Theo Boer told the Guardian newspaper, “a doctor friend of mine was told by an elderly patient: ‘I demand to have euthanasia this week – you promised.’ The doctor replied: ‘It’s -15C outside. Take a bottle of whisky and sit in your garden and we will find you tomorrow, because I cannot accept that you make me responsible for your own suicide." This doctor, Boer said, once performed euthanasia three times annually. He has now stopped altogether, part of a growing caucus of medical professionals who are questioning whether it does now conflict with their Hippocratic Oath.

"How could I know - how could anybody know - that her death wish was not a sign of her psychiatric disease? The fact that one can rationalise about it, does not mean it's not a sign of the disease," said psychiatrist Dr Frank Koerselman, with regards to Aurelia.

The sad case of Aurelia is not an isolated aberration either. Many healthcare professionals in the Netherlands are beginning to worry about the unforeseen ramifications that euthanasia is having in their country and wider culture. Last year, in the wake of Aurelia's case, a medical ethicist called Berna Van Baarsen publicly resigned from one of the review boards at the 'End of Life' clinic in protest at the growing rate at which dementia sufferers were being euthanized on the basis of written directives that they are unable to confirm after losing their faculties. “It is fundamentally impossible,” she told the newspaper Trouw, “to establish that the patient is suffering unbearably, because he can no longer explain it.”

In one widely distributed case, a dementia sufferer had asked to be killed when the “time was right” (a shockingly vague request) in an advance directive. Her doctor then judged the time "to be right" but the patient resisted, vigorously, claiming that she was still of sound mental capacity to know when she wanted to die, and that she didn't want to die. In response, she was drugged and physically restrained by her family until she submitted to the doctor’s fatal injection.

When this case came to review, the doctor who administered the fatal dose – whose identity has been concealed under law, in case the doctor is subjected to public attack – has defended their actions by saying that it was in strict fulfilment of the patient’s prior request and that, since the patient was "incompetent", her protests before death were irrelevant, as heartrending as the spectacle of a woman being dragged to her death, seemingly unwillingly, might have proved for all involved.

Now, I am a Catholic and so anticipate that some will deem my perspective on this matter to be incorrigibly biased by my religious principles. That is perfectly fine, I don't deny that my faith tradition influences my moral judgement in this area. But the doctors I have mentioned here do not fall into that category - they were, and still are to an extent, supporters of euthanasia in principle. Yet they think it has gone too far and worry that the "slippery slope" argument has proved right after all, with perhaps irreparable damage being done to Dutch societal approaches to the experience of death.

At what point does "the right to die with dignity" become the mark of a culture that has lost respect for the dignity of human life?

What do you think about this issue? Is euthanasia or its cognate assisted dying legal in your country or state? If not, do you think it should be? Why or why not?

People commit suicide everyday already. Whether that is jumping in front of a train due to bi polar disease. Or off a building due to debilitating depression. Is that better? Cleaning up what remains to give to the family? Maybe they can save money on a coffin and bury their brain bits in a matchbox instead, eh?

There will be grey areas, there will be nuances, there will be complications.
But I have seen suffering first hand. I have tried to comfort a mother who had to identify a mangled wreck of a corpse of her 21 year old daughter who had a bright future ahead of her.
I have had to deal with the details of the last moments of a man who I considered like a father. Because there is no such law where I live.
What you call a "slippery slope" is the growing pains of another system.
The one it's replacing is horrific. Forgive me if I advocate for a more nuanced law and medicine.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
What do you think about this issue? Is euthanasia legal in your country or state? If not, do you think it should be? Why or why not?

Euthanasia is not legal in New Zealand. I'm against it as are the majority of my medical colleagues. The case of Aurelia is disturbing because clinic depression is so common yet can profoundly affect perceptions and values. If she were not depressed, her decision would have been different. Beyond that, I don't believe we have the right to take the life of a human being including our own. However I acknowledge my beliefs are faith based and not shared by everyone else.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
People commit suicide everyday already. Whether that is jumping in front of a train due to bi polar disease. Or off a building due to debilitating depression. Is that better?

Of course not, but those people are suffering from deep-seated psychological problems - hence the reason why they seek to kill themselves.

The question here, is whether the medical community should be honouring their wish to be euthanized - even in the absence of any physical debilitation - or treating them, in accordance with the Hippocratic Oath, to try and cure their underlying mental health issues that may compel them to do something which, had they lived a few years longer, they may have regretted in a better state of mind? Clinical depression can seriously impair one's perceptions and self-worth. But it can be cured or at least severely mitigated, with time and proper medicine and counselling.

Equally, we have the reverse issue of people suffering from dementia who have prior (in a sound state of mind) requested that they be euthanized when their brain disease has reached a certain point, but who later on claim that they no longer wish to die but are euthanized anyway because they are no longer deemed to be 'competent', even though their subjective understanding of their own 'suffering' cannot be empirically gauged.

And how these two extremes now appear to be happening side-by-side in the one country and legal jurisdiction, suggests to me that something has gone very wrong indeed at least in the Dutch approach to this topic.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
Some things have to be dealt with on an individual, case-by-case basis, and this is one of them. I see no reason to make a moral 'issue' of it as we all have somewhat different moral imperatives that we live (and would die) by, nor any reason to impose universal 'how to/when to/why to' laws. Obviously, oversight is necessary, but the focus has to stay on the individual, and on the particular circumstances.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
.................She entered a clinic, carrying a toy dinosaur in her arms, lay down on a bed in a white room and drank poison supplied by a doctor. And so, with medical assistance, at the age of 29, Aurelia - fit, healthy and not in any physical pain but in a very poor state of mental capacity - euthanized herself.

Apart from your last incident description which looks like murder to me (it certainly would have been in the UK) Aurelia could have ended her life in any other country, the only detail being that she could not have received lawful assistance.

Bernard died in 2002 in the UK. His relationship had just fallen apart and he had often told his girlfriend that he would kill himself if she left him. Such threats are dreadful, but regardless of that Bernard meant it, and so he willed all of his considerable wealth to a Hospice and instructions with his solicitor. He then visited all of his friends for a last chat before the end. He rigged up a hose from exhaust to interior and died sitting in his car and listening to his favourite music.

What really upset me was that when he visited me for tea and a chat I didn't twig it..... not at all.... even when knowing that he often suggested suicide for his whole list of problems and that huge blackmail threat to his girlfriend. On that last visit I had a streaming slobbering cold and Bernard very nearly didn't stay because of that. He didn't want to catch a cold !!! :shrug: ........... so I thought he was safe for the time being. So much for my assessment. That still hurts.

And so my point is this......... If a person wants to die, really wants to die, then beyond counselling there is not much that anybody can do to save from it. But if a country has passed laws which mean that family and a doctor can hold a conscious person down and murder them legally........... No!
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Some things have to be dealt with on an individual, case-by-case basis, and this is one of them. I see no reason to make a moral 'issue' of it as we all have somewhat different moral imperatives that we live (and would die) by, nor any reason to impose universal 'how to/when to/why to' laws. Obviously, oversight is necessary, but the focus has to stay on the individual, and on the particular circumstances.

Case-by-case is attractive in theory but any medical practice must be strictly circumscribed and regulated by law, to meet certain professional and ethical standards.

Otherwise, it becomes arbitrary - and arbitrariness is one step away from the breakdown of the rule of law and the equality of status we each enjoy under it.

Too much subjectivity, can become arbitrary. In the Netherlands, for example, many Dutch doctors will refuse - and the law entitles them to do so on conscience - to euthanize a mentally ill person whose desire to die can beinterpreted as a symptom of a treatable psychiatric disease. But there are specific clinics that don't think this is the case.

The case of Eelco is illustrative:

Death on demand: has euthanasia gone too far?

Eelco came of age just as euthanasia was being legalised. After years of being examined by psychiatrists who made multiple diagnoses and prescribed a variety of ineffective remedies, he began pestering the doctors of Tilburg to end his life.

Eelco was turned down by two doctors in Tilburg; one of them balked at doing the deed because she was pregnant. In desperation, Eelco turned to the Levenseindekliniek. With its ideological commitment to euthanasia and cadre of specialist doctors, it has done much to help widen the scope of the practice, and one of its teams ended Eelco’s misery on 23 November 2016. A second team from the same clinic killed another psychologically disturbed youngster.

As the most solemn and consequential intervention a Dutch physician can be asked to make, and this in a profession that aims to standardise responses to all eventualities, the decision to kill is oddly contingent on a single, mercurial human conscience.

This is putting a huge weight of responsibility on the shoulders of individual, fallible conscience - whether of a severely mentally disturbed person or an individual doctor with their own ideological or personal biases. And the uneven, inconsistent, arbitrary nature of it is both administratively chaotic and deeply concerning to me.
 
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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Last year, a young Dutch lady was busily crossing calendar days off a whiteboard in her home, in expectation of the big day. She made sure to pencil in last-minute trips with her loved ones, days for her favourite hobby arts and crafts, and even a few bike rides in her local park - she was, after all, a very fit and healthy woman and by all accounts, had an outwardly nice life.

But she bore a silent agony, having struggled on and off with clinical depression since the age of 12, psychosis, borderline personality disorder and suicidal thoughts. She was often distressed and would habitually self-harm. And in this state of mind, which - unlike her body was not healthy - this young woman had made a decision and ticked a box giving her consent.

Finally, the day she had been awaiting for months arrived. She entered a clinic, carrying a toy dinosaur in her arms, lay down on a bed in a white room and drank poison supplied by a doctor. And so, with medical assistance, at the age of 29, Aurelia - fit, healthy and not in any physical pain but in a very poor state of mental capacity - was voluntarily euthanized.

The case sparked controversy in the Netherlands, a country where euthanasia has been legal for 20 years and is generally viewed as a test case for the practise. The law was originally passed for patients experiencing “unbearable suffering with no prospect of improvement”. No matter our own views on euthanasia, whether prefixed on secular or religious grounds, I'm sure that we can all see the rationale of granting voluntary euthanasia to a person with terminal lung cancer, for instance, whether or not we think it should be legal.

But Aurelia's case is altogether more troubling and becoming more routine. Everyone in the Netherlands now seems to have known someone who has been euthanized. “In the coldest weeks of last winter,” Dr. Theo Boer told the Guardian newspaper, “a doctor friend of mine was told by an elderly patient: ‘I demand to have euthanasia this week – you promised.’ The doctor replied: ‘It’s -15C outside. Take a bottle of whisky and sit in your garden and we will find you tomorrow, because I cannot accept that you make me responsible for your own suicide." This doctor, Boer said, once performed euthanasia three times annually. He has now stopped altogether, part of a growing caucus of medical professionals who are questioning whether it does now conflict with their Hippocratic Oath.

"How could I know - how could anybody know - that her death wish was not a sign of her psychiatric disease? The fact that one can rationalise about it, does not mean it's not a sign of the disease," said psychiatrist Dr Frank Koerselman, with regards to Aurelia.

The sad case of Aurelia is not an isolated aberration either. Many healthcare professionals in the Netherlands are beginning to worry about the unforeseen ramifications that euthanasia is having in their country and wider culture. Last year, in the wake of Aurelia's case, a medical ethicist called Berna Van Baarsen publicly resigned from one of the review boards at the 'End of Life' clinic in protest at the growing rate at which dementia sufferers were being euthanized on the basis of written directives that they are unable to confirm after losing their faculties. “It is fundamentally impossible,” she told the newspaper Trouw, “to establish that the patient is suffering unbearably, because he can no longer explain it.”

In one widely distributed case, a dementia sufferer had asked to be killed when the “time was right” (a shockingly vague request) in an advance directive. Her doctor then judged the time "to be right" but the patient resisted, vigorously, claiming that she was still of sound mental capacity to know when she wanted to die, and that she didn't want to die. In response, she was drugged and physically restrained by her family until she submitted to the doctor’s fatal injection.

When this case came to review, the doctor who administered the fatal dose – whose identity has been concealed under law, in case the doctor is subjected to public attack – has defended their actions by saying that it was in strict fulfilment of the patient’s prior request and that, since the patient was "incompetent", her protests before death were irrelevant, as heartrending as the spectacle of a woman being dragged to her death, seemingly unwillingly, might have proved for all involved.

Now, I am a Catholic and so anticipate that some will deem my perspective on this matter to be incorrigibly biased by my religious principles. That is perfectly fine, I don't deny that my faith tradition influences my moral judgement in this area. But the doctors I have mentioned here do not fall into that category - they were, and still are to an extent, supporters of euthanasia in principle. Yet they think it has gone too far and worry that the "slippery slope" argument has proved right after all, with perhaps irreparable damage being done to Dutch societal approaches to the experience of death.

At what point does "the right to die with dignity" become the mark of a culture that has lost respect for the dignity of human life?

What do you think about this issue? Is euthanasia or its cognate assisted dying legal in your country or state? If not, do you think it should be? Why or why not?

In much of europe euthanasia is legal to some degree, in the uk where i was born and france where i live passive euthanasia is legal, i.e giving patients the right to refuse life saving treatment. France goes a little further alowing doctors to keep a terminal patient sedated until death.

And so on to none terminal but debilitating illness. I most certainly would not wish to burden my family or the state if i became so ill. That would probably be some sort of mental deterioration or crippling disease. Both me and my husband have already decided on the point we would take a trip to Switzerland and only one would return.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
In much of europe euthanasia is legal to some degree, in the uk where i was born and france where i live passive euthanasia is legal, i.e giving patients the right to refuse life saving treatment. France goes a little further alowing doctors to keep a terminal patient sedated until death.

And so on to none terminal but debilitating illness. I most certainly would not wish to burden my family or the state if i became so ill. That would probably be some sort of mental deterioration or crippling disease. Both me and my husband have already decided on the point we would take a trip to Switzerland and only one would return.

As of this year, active human euthanasia in Europe is legal only in the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg. It's still predominantly banned.

And it is also not correct to say that the UK allows passive euthanasia, which is not actually the same as merely "withdrawing life-sustaining treatment in the person's best interests."

From the NHS website:


Euthanasia and assisted suicide


Both euthanasia and assisted suicide are illegal under English law.

Active and passive euthanasia

You may have heard the terms "active euthanasia" and "passive euthanasia".

"Active euthanasia" is sometimes used to refer to deliberately intervening to end someone's life – for example, by injecting them with a large dose of sedatives.

"Passive euthanasia" is sometimes used to refer to causing someone's death by withholding or withdrawing treatment that is necessary to maintain life.

It's important not to confuse "passive euthanasia" with withdrawing life-sustaining treatment in the person's best interests. Withdrawing life-sustaining treatment because it's in the person's best interests can be part of good palliative care and is not euthanasia.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Last year, a young Dutch lady was busily crossing calendar days off a whiteboard in her home, in expectation of the big day. She made sure to pencil in last-minute trips with her loved ones, days for her favourite hobby arts and crafts, and even a few bike rides in her local park - she was, after all, a very fit and healthy woman and by all accounts, had an outwardly nice life.

But she bore a silent agony, having struggled on and off with clinical depression since the age of 12, psychosis, borderline personality disorder and suicidal thoughts. She was often distressed and would habitually self-harm. And in this state of mind, which - unlike her body was not healthy - this young woman had made a decision and ticked a box giving her consent.

Finally, the day she had been awaiting for months arrived. She entered a clinic, carrying a toy dinosaur in her arms, lay down on a bed in a white room and drank poison supplied by a doctor. And so, with medical assistance, at the age of 29, Aurelia - fit, healthy and not in any physical pain but in a very poor state of mental capacity - was voluntarily euthanized.

The case sparked controversy in the Netherlands, a country where euthanasia has been legal for 20 years and is generally viewed as a test case for the practise. The law was originally passed for patients experiencing “unbearable suffering with no prospect of improvement”. No matter our own views on euthanasia, whether prefixed on secular or religious grounds, I'm sure that we can all see the rationale of granting voluntary euthanasia to a person with terminal lung cancer, for instance, whether or not we think it should be legal.

But Aurelia's case is altogether more troubling and becoming more routine. Everyone in the Netherlands now seems to have known someone who has been euthanized. “In the coldest weeks of last winter,” Dr. Theo Boer told the Guardian newspaper, “a doctor friend of mine was told by an elderly patient: ‘I demand to have euthanasia this week – you promised.’ The doctor replied: ‘It’s -15C outside. Take a bottle of whisky and sit in your garden and we will find you tomorrow, because I cannot accept that you make me responsible for your own suicide." This doctor, Boer said, once performed euthanasia three times annually. He has now stopped altogether, part of a growing caucus of medical professionals who are questioning whether it does now conflict with their Hippocratic Oath.

"How could I know - how could anybody know - that her death wish was not a sign of her psychiatric disease? The fact that one can rationalise about it, does not mean it's not a sign of the disease," said psychiatrist Dr Frank Koerselman, with regards to Aurelia.

The sad case of Aurelia is not an isolated aberration either. Many healthcare professionals in the Netherlands are beginning to worry about the unforeseen ramifications that euthanasia is having in their country and wider culture. Last year, in the wake of Aurelia's case, a medical ethicist called Berna Van Baarsen publicly resigned from one of the review boards at the 'End of Life' clinic in protest at the growing rate at which dementia sufferers were being euthanized on the basis of written directives that they are unable to confirm after losing their faculties. “It is fundamentally impossible,” she told the newspaper Trouw, “to establish that the patient is suffering unbearably, because he can no longer explain it.”

In one widely distributed case, a dementia sufferer had asked to be killed when the “time was right” (a shockingly vague request) in an advance directive. Her doctor then judged the time "to be right" but the patient resisted, vigorously, claiming that she was still of sound mental capacity to know when she wanted to die, and that she didn't want to die. In response, she was drugged and physically restrained by her family until she submitted to the doctor’s fatal injection.

When this case came to review, the doctor who administered the fatal dose – whose identity has been concealed under law, in case the doctor is subjected to public attack – has defended their actions by saying that it was in strict fulfilment of the patient’s prior request and that, since the patient was "incompetent", her protests before death were irrelevant, as heartrending as the spectacle of a woman being dragged to her death, seemingly unwillingly, might have proved for all involved.

Now, I am a Catholic and so anticipate that some will deem my perspective on this matter to be incorrigibly biased by my religious principles. That is perfectly fine, I don't deny that my faith tradition influences my moral judgement in this area. But the doctors I have mentioned here do not fall into that category - they were, and still are to an extent, supporters of euthanasia in principle. Yet they think it has gone too far and worry that the "slippery slope" argument has proved right after all, with perhaps irreparable damage being done to Dutch societal approaches to the experience of death.

At what point does "the right to die with dignity" become the mark of a culture that has lost respect for the dignity of human life? What does oes act of killing a physically healthy young person, or an old person with dementia who no longer wants to die, tells us about our own views of human wellbeing?

What do you think about this issue? Is euthanasia or its cognate assisted dying legal in your country or state? If not, do you think it should be? Why or why not?


Regarding the case you cited, mental illness can be as debilitating and painful as physical illness.

Having a relative with acute paranoid schizophrenia has shown me how destructive it can be to a person. He has considered suicide on a couple of occasions, both times he has not gone through with it because he enjoys life enough to give him hope when he is lucid. But ultimately it is his life and so up to him.

The Dutch lady you mentioned will have weighed up whether her life was worth continuing and made the biggest decision she could ever make. Whether to permanently end her suffering. She was lucky in that her country allows informed euthanasia.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
As of this year, active human euthanasia in Europe is legal only in the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg. It's still predominantly banned.

And it is also not correct to say that the UK allows passive euthanasia, which is not actually the same "withdrawing life-sustaining treatment in the person's best interests.'

From the NHS website:


Euthanasia and assisted suicide


Both euthanasia and assisted suicide are illegal under English law.

Active and passive euthanasia

You may have heard the terms "active euthanasia" and "passive euthanasia".

"Active euthanasia" is sometimes used to refer to deliberately intervening to end someone's life – for example, by injecting them with a large dose of sedatives.

"Passive euthanasia" is sometimes used to refer to causing someone's death by withholding or withdrawing treatment that is necessary to maintain life.

It's important not to confuse "passive euthanasia" with withdrawing life-sustaining treatment in the person's best interests. Withdrawing life-sustaining treatment because it's in the person's best interests can be part of good palliative care and is not euthanasia.

I deliberately mentioned the limits of the "passive euthanasia" that is legal. No confusion here
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
And so on to none terminal but debilitating illness. I most certainly would not wish to burden my family or the state if i became so ill.

While I respect your conscientious personal judgement in this matter, to end your own personal suffering if the time came, I must say that I am troubled by your description of being chroniclly but not terminally ill as a "burden" to society.

Ending personal suffering is one thing, and wholly understandable from my POV.

But depicting chronic illness as burdensome to society is eugenical to my mindset. How can caring for the sick and disadvantaged ever be a burden? I can think of no greater disposal of collective wealth and public services or familial devotion than to direct it towards the good of those who need it most.

As someone who suffers myself from a chronic medical condition that can at times prove debilitating, but has improved significantly with appropriate medical attention and hasn't held me back from having a great career and living a full life, I particularly resent the language of burden and I don't think that anyone should ever feel that they are a burden.
 
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Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Last year, a young Dutch lady was busily crossing calendar days off a whiteboard in her home, in expectation of the big day. She made sure to pencil in last-minute trips with her loved ones, days for her favourite hobby arts and crafts, and even a few bike rides in her local park - she was, after all, a very fit and healthy woman and by all accounts, had an outwardly nice life.

But she bore a silent agony, having struggled on and off with clinical depression since the age of 12, psychosis, borderline personality disorder and suicidal thoughts. She was often distressed and would habitually self-harm. And in this state of mind, which - unlike her body was not healthy - this young woman had made a decision and ticked a box giving her consent.

Finally, the day she had been awaiting for months arrived. She entered a clinic, carrying a toy dinosaur in her arms, lay down on a bed in a white room and drank poison supplied by a doctor. And so, with medical assistance, at the age of 29, Aurelia - fit, healthy and not in any physical pain but in a very poor state of mental capacity - was voluntarily euthanized.

The case sparked controversy in the Netherlands, a country where euthanasia has been legal for 20 years and is generally viewed as a test case for the practise. The law was originally passed for patients experiencing “unbearable suffering with no prospect of improvement”. No matter our own views on euthanasia, whether prefixed on secular or religious grounds, I'm sure that we can all see the rationale of granting voluntary euthanasia to a person with terminal lung cancer, for instance, whether or not we think it should be legal.

But Aurelia's case is altogether more troubling and becoming more routine. Everyone in the Netherlands now seems to have known someone who has been euthanized. “In the coldest weeks of last winter,” Dr. Theo Boer told the Guardian newspaper, “a doctor friend of mine was told by an elderly patient: ‘I demand to have euthanasia this week – you promised.’ The doctor replied: ‘It’s -15C outside. Take a bottle of whisky and sit in your garden and we will find you tomorrow, because I cannot accept that you make me responsible for your own suicide." This doctor, Boer said, once performed euthanasia three times annually. He has now stopped altogether, part of a growing caucus of medical professionals who are questioning whether it does now conflict with their Hippocratic Oath.

"How could I know - how could anybody know - that her death wish was not a sign of her psychiatric disease? The fact that one can rationalise about it, does not mean it's not a sign of the disease," said psychiatrist Dr Frank Koerselman, with regards to Aurelia.

The sad case of Aurelia is not an isolated aberration either. Many healthcare professionals in the Netherlands are beginning to worry about the unforeseen ramifications that euthanasia is having in their country and wider culture. Last year, in the wake of Aurelia's case, a medical ethicist called Berna Van Baarsen publicly resigned from one of the review boards at the 'End of Life' clinic in protest at the growing rate at which dementia sufferers were being euthanized on the basis of written directives that they are unable to confirm after losing their faculties. “It is fundamentally impossible,” she told the newspaper Trouw, “to establish that the patient is suffering unbearably, because he can no longer explain it.”

In one widely distributed case, a dementia sufferer had asked to be killed when the “time was right” (a shockingly vague request) in an advance directive. Her doctor then judged the time "to be right" but the patient resisted, vigorously, claiming that she was still of sound mental capacity to know when she wanted to die, and that she didn't want to die. In response, she was drugged and physically restrained by her family until she submitted to the doctor’s fatal injection.

When this case came to review, the doctor who administered the fatal dose – whose identity has been concealed under law, in case the doctor is subjected to public attack – has defended their actions by saying that it was in strict fulfilment of the patient’s prior request and that, since the patient was "incompetent", her protests before death were irrelevant, as heartrending as the spectacle of a woman being dragged to her death, seemingly unwillingly, might have proved for all involved.

Now, I am a Catholic and so anticipate that some will deem my perspective on this matter to be incorrigibly biased by my religious principles. That is perfectly fine, I don't deny that my faith tradition influences my moral judgement in this area. But the doctors I have mentioned here do not fall into that category - they were, and still are to an extent, supporters of euthanasia in principle. Yet they think it has gone too far and worry that the "slippery slope" argument has proved right after all, with perhaps irreparable damage being done to Dutch societal approaches to the experience of death.

At what point does "the right to die with dignity" become the mark of a culture that has lost respect for the dignity of human life? What does oes act of killing a physically healthy young person, or an old person with dementia who no longer wants to die, tells us about our own views of human wellbeing?

What do you think about this issue? Is euthanasia or its cognate assisted dying legal in your country or state? If not, do you think it should be? Why or why not?

Where was this?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It is not allowed in Norway, and i hope it will never be. Killing is always wrong action, even when a person ask for it to be done to them.
When my father died, assisted dying was illegal in Canada.

After he lost consciousness for the last time, his doctor brought my mother, my sister, and me into a quiet room. He told us that my father would never wake up again and he gave us the two options that were allowed at the time:

- continue everything as we had been doing until the cancer killed him in a few weeks.
- withdraw life-sustaining measures so that he would die of dehydration within a few days.

Because of Canadian law at the time, we weren't given the option of simply letting him die quickly and peacefully.

Take your "killing is always wrong action" out of the abstract, apply it to this example, and tell me why it was good to prolong my father's suffering while my mother had to watch.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
While I respect your conscientious personal judgement in this matter, to end your own personal suffering if the time came, I must say that I am troubled by your description of being chroniclly but not terminally ill as a "burden" to society.

Ending personal suffering is one thing, and wholly understandable from my POV.

But calling the chroniclly ill burdensome is eugenical to my mindset. How can caring for the sick and disadvantaged ever be a burden? I can think of no greater disposal of collective wealth and public services or familial devotion than to direct it towards the good of those who need it most.

As someone who suffers myself from a chronic medical condition that can at times prove debilitating, but has improved significantly with appropriate medical attention and hasn't held me back from having a great career and living a full life, I particularly resent the language of burden.


It would be my (and immediate family) decision, not anyone elses and i would not consider making the decision for anyone else.

I did not call anyone burdensome, again i was referring to myself and thought i was clear that ultimately it should be up to the individual. That means not religious belief, not parliamentary beliefs and not anyone who does not know the situation.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
It would be my (and immediate family) decision, not anyone elses and i would not consider making the decision for anyone else.

I did not call anyone burdensome, again i was referring to myself and thought i was clear that ultimately it should be up to the individual. That means not religious belief, not parliamentary beliefs and not anyone who does not know the situation.

Oh no, I understand this and was not meaning to imply that you were referring to other people as burdensome.

My point was rather that I am troubled by the very rationale of using burden, rather than personal suffering, as a yardstick in deciding whether to undergo euthanasia.

If the goal is to end an individual's unbearable pain or debilitation with their volition or that of there nearest and dearest if they are not conscious (and will not become so again), that's one thing. But if the goal is to stop oneself or another from being a "burden" to society, I can't personally subscribe to that logic or language and I certainly don't consider it to be an advisable reason for euthanasia to become socially acceptable.

I sincerely think it would represent moral retardation rather than progress for any society to embrace euthanisizing people, even voluntarily, on the basis that a human life has become a burden to the state.
 
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Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
When my father died, assisted dying was illegal in Canada.

After he lost consciousness for the last time, his doctor brought my mother, my sister, and me into a quiet room. He told us that my father would never wake up again and he gave us the two options that were allowed at the time:

- continue everything as we had been doing until the cancer killed him in a few weeks.
- withdraw life-sustaining measures so that he would die of dehydration within a few days.

Because of Canadian law at the time, we weren't given the option of simply letting him die quickly and peacefully.

Take your "killing is always wrong action" out of the abstract, apply it to this example, and tell me why it was good to prolong my father's suffering while my mother had to watch.

In Oregon, the law is that one can elect to not have dialysis, Oxygen and other life support measures, deeming them extraordinary. If one has a terminal condition, one can be given a Tea that will bring death quickly.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Oh no, I understand this and was not meaning to imply that you were referring to other people as burdensome.

My point was rather that I am troubled by the very rationale of using burden, rather than personal suffering, as a yardstick in deciding whether to undergo euthanasia.


Let me give you a hypothetical. My family have grown and have their own family, home, maybe children, good jobs etc. Given the cutbacks in health spending there us no chance of public financing of adequate long term care. Meaning care must be provided by the family. Assuming i would require round the clock care, 2 or 3 family members would need to provide that care at a cost of their family lifes and possibly their jobs. That is a burden nam not willing to impose on my children who, after all, have their own lives to lead.

That is not a "rather" situation but a combined situation, if i were not suffering the question of burden would not arise.
 
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