The Second Coming

[Dawnofhope]

Its referred to as the Little Apocalypse.

Matthew’s question about the ‘end of the world‘, should be rendered as ‘end of the age‘.

Other literal translations like the ISR 98 and the New King James read, “and of the end of the age?”

Matthew was asking about the end of the ‘Jewish age’, as Messiah had just declared that the Jewish leaders and temple would be desolated, which would end the existence of the Jewish nation.

The ‘former days‘ of the Jewish nation ended when the Jews were taken captive by the Babylonians.

The ‘latter days‘ started when they were released from Babylonian captivity in the 5th century B.C., and ended in the 1st century A.D.

I agree its about the end of an age or era, not the end of the world. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple marked the end of an era for the Jews. The Return of the Christ or Messiah marked the end of the Christian era. The Christian era is over in case you missed it.

 

[sooda]

Satan was in Heaven during the Old Testament. He was a council to God the father. Satan, had originally been called Lucifer, the morning star. He had a symbolic connection to consciousness and creative change. Lucifer evolved into Satan. As Satan he became the CEO in charge of humans. This position was granted at the time Adam and Eve, who ate of the Tree of Knowledge. He was the serpent in the tree and had demonstrated he had a way with humans.

In Revelations, there is a war in Heaven and Satan is thrown from heaven. This begins a new age, where Satan is no linger the CEO of humans, as had been sanctified by God. Now he becomes the Devil. The Devil is more free lance.

Because Satan is thrown from Heaven to the earth, it becomes unclear to the humans, whether anything has changed. The same spiritual principle; Satan, is still in action on earth, but now, not in any official capacity. However, this change of divine priority, is not yet clear to the humans.

It is like having a CEO who has been fired by the board of directors. But this firing has not yet been announced publicly, since he gets to finish his contract. Those in power, below him, still want to serve him, not knowing he no longer works for the company. Instead, he is secretly working for himself. He is trying to steer the ship way from the original goal of the Old Testament, toward a new place where he can regain full control. This leads to the Anti-Christ and False Prophet and the Abomination of Desolation.

The first Messiah or Jesus comes while Satan is sanctioned by God as CEO. Satan had more self control and plays his role as the CEO in God's drama. The second coming of the Messiah, occurs after Satan has gone renegade, and has brought the world to the brink of total war and destruction. The New Messiah is the new CEO called faithful and true to God.

The Saints begin to notice the distinction between Satan in Heaven and Satan gone renegade, very early. They see the signs of change. They try to help others make the right choices. However, the majority cannot make this distinction, but still believe in changes being made, in times and laws, is a continuing part of the Old Testament dispensation.

After all the Saints are sacrificed, the end comes. The second coming is an awakening where all start to see, and order is restored.

Oh dear me...

Look at the origins of futurism. Its political.

FUTURISM AND THE BIBLE And the Origins of Futurism

 

[Dawnofhope]

Which page are you referring to ? I mean in Kithab I iqan.

There’s quite a few references that are relevant. If you go to page 24 and read from:

These are the melodies, sung by Jesus, Son of Mary, in accents of majestic power in the Riḍván of the Gospel, revealing those signs that must needs herald the advent of the Manifestation after Him. In the first Gospel according to Matthew it is recorded: And when they asked Jesus concerning the signs of His coming, He said unto them: “Immediately after the oppression of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the earth shall be shaken: and then 20Rendered into the Persian tongue, the purport of these words is as follows: When the oppression and afflictions that are to befall mankind will have come to pass, then shall the sun be withheld from shining, the moon from giving light, the stars of heaven shall fall upon the earth, and the pillars of the earth shall quake. At that time, the signs of the Son of man shall appear in heaven, that is, the promised Beauty and Substance of life shall, when these signs have appeared, step forth out of the realm of the invisible into the visible world. And He saith: at that time, all the peoples and kindreds that dwell on earth shall bewail and lament, and they shall see that divine Beauty coming from heaven, riding upon the clouds with power, grandeur, and magnificence, sending His angels with a great sound of a trumpet. Similarly, in the three other Gospels, according to Luke, Mark, and John, the same statements are recorded. As We have referred at length to these in Our Tablets revealed in the Arabic tongue, We have made no mention of them in these pages, and have confined Ourselves to but one reference.

Inasmuch as the Christian divines have failed to apprehend the meaning of these words, and did not recognize their object and purpose, and have clung to the literal interpretation of the words of Jesus, they therefore became deprived of the streaming grace of the Muḥammadan Revelation and its showering bounties. The ignorant among the Christian community, following the example of the leaders of their faith, were likewise prevented from beholding the beauty of the King of glory, inasmuch as those signs which were to accompany the dawn of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation did not actually come to pass. Thus, ages have passed and centuries rolled away, and that most pure Spirit hath repaired unto the retreats of its ancient sovereignty. Once more hath the eternal Spirit breathed into the mystic trumpet, and caused the dead to speed out of their sepulchres of heedlessness and error unto the realm of guidance and grace. And yet, that expectant community still crieth out: When shall these things be? When shall the promised One, the object of our expectation, be made manifest, that we may arise for the triumph of His Cause, that we may sacrifice our substance for His sake, that we may offer up our lives in His path? In like manner, have such false imaginings caused other communities to stray from the Kawthar of the infinite mercy of Providence, and to be busied with their own idle thoughts.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

That’s a start but if you continue reading there’s more.

 

[firedragon]

The Hebrew Bible is somewhat different on account of its scriptures being much older and so the historicity can’t be authenticated before the Babylonian exile. Notwithstanding the Baha’i writings and Quran affirm the authenticity for the Torah as the Gospel. They both contain Divine Revelation, convey all the God wanted through Moses and Jesus and are protected. We can not however be certain they were the exact words God Revealed through Moses and Jesus, nor should we take it all literally. In addition the Baha’i writings and Quran make references to other characters and books in the Hebrew Bible. In that sense the Hebrew Bible appears as a cohesive whole much like the New Testament.

Brother. The references to the Torah and Gospel in Quran and Bahai writings are completely different so you cannot put them together as if they are one. Nevertheless when you say authentication of the scripture before the Babylonian exile do you mean the Pentateuch as well? But why is it that after the exile its more trustworthy? What method have you used to make that conclusion?

Good question. The whole of all four Gospels is seen as being more or less authentic. We don’t take some of it as literally as the Christians, particularly the resurrection narrative.

What methodology have you used to separate the two (resurrection narrative vs Olivet Prophecy)?

It would be a reasonable assumption that the disciples made concerted efforts to spread the Gospel as Christ commanded (Mark 16:15). The book of acts is an important bridging work between the Gospels and Apostolic letters. It provides an account of this teaching work. Its generally believed Peter died a Martyrs death between 64 and 68AD.

Brother. I am not asking about general beliefs. You say that you dont agree with Christian evangelists but you quote very much latter beliefs for martyrdoms of apostles, which is not at all relevant to the question of the apostles and the gospels anyway.

Peter is mentioned in Acts and one of Paul’s letters. Two Epistles are attributed to Peter. So while he may or may not have contributed directly to the writing of the Gospels, he was around to verify what was and wasn’t said. Same deal with some of the other disciples such as John.

You said that you agree with modern scholarship but now you speak of two books written by Peter. Modernn scholarship is pretty convinced that Peter has not written anything in the Bible. And by stating that Peter was around to verify anything in the Bible, the New Testament books you have simply repeated an evangelical argument because you dont know if its true but its just a convenient argument to try and authenticate what you want. Not a scholarly consensus or even a thesis.

 

[firedragon]

There’s quite a few references that are relevant. If you go to page 24 and read from:

These are the melodies, sung by Jesus, Son of Mary, in accents of majestic power in the Riḍván of the Gospel, revealing those signs that must needs herald the advent of the Manifestation after Him. In the first Gospel according to Matthew it is recorded: And when they asked Jesus concerning the signs of His coming, He said unto them: “Immediately after the oppression of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the earth shall be shaken: and then 20Rendered into the Persian tongue, the purport of these words is as follows: When the oppression and afflictions that are to befall mankind will have come to pass, then shall the sun be withheld from shining, the moon from giving light, the stars of heaven shall fall upon the earth, and the pillars of the earth shall quake. At that time, the signs of the Son of man shall appear in heaven, that is, the promised Beauty and Substance of life shall, when these signs have appeared, step forth out of the realm of the invisible into the visible world. And He saith: at that time, all the peoples and kindreds that dwell on earth shall bewail and lament, and they shall see that divine Beauty coming from heaven, riding upon the clouds with power, grandeur, and magnificence, sending His angels with a great sound of a trumpet. Similarly, in the three other Gospels, according to Luke, Mark, and John, the same statements are recorded. As We have referred at length to these in Our Tablets revealed in the Arabic tongue, We have made no mention of them in these pages, and have confined Ourselves to but one reference.

Inasmuch as the Christian divines have failed to apprehend the meaning of these words, and did not recognize their object and purpose, and have clung to the literal interpretation of the words of Jesus, they therefore became deprived of the streaming grace of the Muḥammadan Revelation and its showering bounties. The ignorant among the Christian community, following the example of the leaders of their faith, were likewise prevented from beholding the beauty of the King of glory, inasmuch as those signs which were to accompany the dawn of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation did not actually come to pass. Thus, ages have passed and centuries rolled away, and that most pure Spirit hath repaired unto the retreats of its ancient sovereignty. Once more hath the eternal Spirit breathed into the mystic trumpet, and caused the dead to speed out of their sepulchres of heedlessness and error unto the realm of guidance and grace. And yet, that expectant community still crieth out: When shall these things be? When shall the promised One, the object of our expectation, be made manifest, that we may arise for the triumph of His Cause, that we may sacrifice our substance for His sake, that we may offer up our lives in His path? In like manner, have such false imaginings caused other communities to stray from the Kawthar of the infinite mercy of Providence, and to be busied with their own idle thoughts.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

That’s a start but if you continue reading there’s more.

Thanks. I cant search on the book so page number is necessary for me to refer the book. I yet have not read through the whole book. I shall definitely read. Sorry for the trouble.

 

[firedragon]

There’s quite a few references that are relevant. If you go to page 24 and read from:

These are the melodies, sung by Jesus, Son of Mary, in accents of majestic power in the Riḍván of the Gospel, revealing those signs that must needs herald the advent of the Manifestation after Him. In the first Gospel according to Matthew it is recorded: And when they asked Jesus concerning the signs of His coming, He said unto them: “Immediately after the oppression of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the earth shall be shaken: and then 20Rendered into the Persian tongue, the purport of these words is as follows: When the oppression and afflictions that are to befall mankind will have come to pass, then shall the sun be withheld from shining, the moon from giving light, the stars of heaven shall fall upon the earth, and the pillars of the earth shall quake. At that time, the signs of the Son of man shall appear in heaven, that is, the promised Beauty and Substance of life shall, when these signs have appeared, step forth out of the realm of the invisible into the visible world. And He saith: at that time, all the peoples and kindreds that dwell on earth shall bewail and lament, and they shall see that divine Beauty coming from heaven, riding upon the clouds with power, grandeur, and magnificence, sending His angels with a great sound of a trumpet. Similarly, in the three other Gospels, according to Luke, Mark, and John, the same statements are recorded. As We have referred at length to these in Our Tablets revealed in the Arabic tongue, We have made no mention of them in these pages, and have confined Ourselves to but one reference.

Inasmuch as the Christian divines have failed to apprehend the meaning of these words, and did not recognize their object and purpose, and have clung to the literal interpretation of the words of Jesus, they therefore became deprived of the streaming grace of the Muḥammadan Revelation and its showering bounties. The ignorant among the Christian community, following the example of the leaders of their faith, were likewise prevented from beholding the beauty of the King of glory, inasmuch as those signs which were to accompany the dawn of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation did not actually come to pass. Thus, ages have passed and centuries rolled away, and that most pure Spirit hath repaired unto the retreats of its ancient sovereignty. Once more hath the eternal Spirit breathed into the mystic trumpet, and caused the dead to speed out of their sepulchres of heedlessness and error unto the realm of guidance and grace. And yet, that expectant community still crieth out: When shall these things be? When shall the promised One, the object of our expectation, be made manifest, that we may arise for the triumph of His Cause, that we may sacrifice our substance for His sake, that we may offer up our lives in His path? In like manner, have such false imaginings caused other communities to stray from the Kawthar of the infinite mercy of Providence, and to be busied with their own idle thoughts.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

That’s a start but if you continue reading there’s more.

You know what? I think the version I have doesn't correspond to what you have. I have the Ali Kuli Khans translations. Are you using Effendi's? Maybe the pages dont correspond.

 

[sooda]

Brother. The references to the Torah and Gospel in Quran and Bahai writings are completely different so you cannot put them together as if they are one. Nevertheless when you say authentication of the scripture before the Babylonian exile do you mean the Pentateuch as well? But why is it that after the exile its more trustworthy? What method have you used to make that conclusion?



What methodology have you used to separate the two (resurrection narrative vs Olivet Prophecy)?



Brother. I am not asking about general beliefs. You say that you dont agree with Christian evangelists but you quote very much latter beliefs for martyrdoms of apostles, which is not at all relevant to the question of the apostles and the gospels anyway.



You said that you agree with modern scholarship but now you speak of two books written by Peter. Modernn scholarship is pretty convinced that Peter has not written anything in the Bible. And by stating that Peter was around to verify anything in the Bible, the New Testament books you have simply repeated an evangelical argument because you dont know if its true but its just a convenient argument to try and authenticate what you want. Not a scholarly consensus or even a thesis.

The Pentateuch wasn't written until AFTER the Babylonian exile,, 800 or 900 years after Moses.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Brother. The references to the Torah and Gospel in Quran and Bahai writings are completely different so you cannot put them together as if they are one.

From a Baha’i perspective we can view both the words of Jesus in the Gospels and the words of Moses in the Torah as the same.

You ask for elucidation of the statement made on behalf of the Guardian in this letter of 11 February 1944, "When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet." Is it not clear that what Shoghi Effendi means here is that we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Moses and Christ in the Old and New Testaments are Their exact words, but that, in view of the general principle enunciated by Bahá'u'lláh in the "Kitab-i-Iqan" that God's Revelation is under His care and protection, we can be confident that the essence, or essential elements, of what these two Manifestations of God intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in these two Books?
(19 July 1981 to an individual believer)

A similar argument could be made around verses in the Quran.

Nevertheless when you say authentication of the scripture before the Babylonian exile do you mean the Pentateuch as well? But why is it that after the exile its more trustworthy? What method have you used to make that conclusion?

I’m simply distinguishing between two sources of authority.

1/ Its true because my Prophet says its true.

2/ It may be true because historians have some consensus.

An obvious example is the story of the Jewish captivity at the hands of the Egyptians round the time of Moses. There’s no historical evidence to support its true. All we have is the biblical account. Make sense?

What methodology have you used to separate the two (resurrection narrative vs Olivet Prophecy)?

The ascension of Christ through the stratosphere to outer space as recorded in Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11 is problematic for obvious reasons.

Brother. I am not asking about general beliefs. You say that you dont agree with Christian evangelists but you quote very much latter beliefs for martyrdoms of apostles, which is not at all relevant to the question of the apostles and the gospels anyway.

Its entirely relevant. Although we don’t know who wrote the Gospels its likely that at least one or two of the disciples were around when they were written.

You said that you agree with modern scholarship but now you speak of two books written by Peter. Modernn scholarship is pretty convinced that Peter has not written anything in the Bible. And by stating that Peter was around to verify anything in the Bible, the New Testament books you have simply repeated an evangelical argument because you dont know if its true but its just a convenient argument to try and authenticate what you want. Not a scholarly consensus or even a thesis.

The authorship of the Epistles attributed to Peter is contested for the first and largely dismissed for the second.

 

[firedragon]

The Pentateuch wasn't written until AFTER the Babylonian exile,, 800 or 900 years after Moses.

Hmm. How would you even know when Moses lived to calculate 900 or 900 years after Moses?

 

[firedragon]

A similar argument could be made around verses in the Quran.

they are polls apart. But its irrelevant so another time.

I’m simply distinguishing between two sources of authority.

1/ Its true because my Prophet says its true.

2/ It may be true because historians have some consensus.

An obvious example is the story of the Jewish captivity at the hands of the Egyptians round the time of Moses. There’s no historical evidence to support its true. All we have is the biblical account. Make sense?

that does not answer my question brother. That also doesn't explain which parts you believe and which parts you dont based one what type of criticism. Nothing is explained by these answers.

The ascension of Christ through the stratosphere to outer space as recorded in Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11 is problematic for obvious reasons.

So you have taken a sceptics approach. Do you apply the same approach to the prophecies?

Its entirely relevant. Although we don’t know who wrote the Gospels its likely that at least one or two of the disciples were around when they were written.

Having one or two around does not mean they had anything to do with it. These are beliefs, not scholarship. Though you claim you agree with modern scholarship.

Let me ask you a question. What did you mean when you said you agree with modern scholarship? Rather than nitpicking off your answers lets clear that.

The authorship of the Epistles attributed to Peter is contested for the first and largely dismissed for the second.

Errm. Not really brother. Yes, there is more definitive evidence for 2nd Peter but 1st also was never written by Peter. Its written pseudonymously.

 

[shmogie]

Jesus appeared to die like he was in the grave 3 days, what Quran means, is it appeared like he was dead but in fact, his spirit stated in this world and God healed his body, so he didn't die in this sense. To die is to leave this world and leave it! Jesus appeared to be crucified, but 3 days later, he is alive.

He died. He was stone cold dead, just as you will be when you die.

He was resurrected to life as all will be, some to judgement and the final, eternal death, and some to unending life.

 

[sooda]

Hmm. How would you even know when Moses lived to calculate 900 or 900 years after Moses?

Just going by the myth...…..

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I see the biggest veil to us understanding the Return, is our own perceived knowledge about it, I see verses such as this given in the Quran, are what we must examine ourself against:

"I will turn away from My Ayaat (verses of the Quran) those who behave arrogantly on the earth, without a right, and (even) if they see all the Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons signs, revelations, etc.), they will not believe in them...” [Quran; 7:146]

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

You know what? I think the version I have doesn't correspond to what you have. I have the Ali Kuli Khans translations. Are you using Effendi's? Maybe the pages dont correspond.

Khan’s translation was completed 1904 whereas Shoghi Effendi’s translation is more recent 1931 and by the leader of the Baha’i Faith. Most Baha’is will use Shoghi Effendi’s translation and I have provided you with a link that enables you to easily access this work.

 

[CG Didymus]

But religious leaders rejected such inclusivity in favour of exclusivity and claims of superiority which in the end only appease the ego but do nothing for the Cause of love and harmony in the world.

So my belief is the Promised One did come and His call for us to unite and reconcile our differences was rejected resulting in two major wars with more suffering to come because of our choices to remain divided.

Judaism and Christianity seem to have taught exclusivity. They both reject the other gods and religions of the people around them. I don't know that either of them supported Hinduism and Buddhism or Zoroastrianism as being from the God of Israel.

Now for wars and suffering. I was under the notion that when The Christ returns, he would usher in peace. He would do away with evil and suffering. So which prophecies in the different religions say that the Promised One is going to be rejected and therefore the world would go through more wars and suffering?

 

[Dawnofhope]

they are polls apart. But its irrelevant so another time.

What the Quran says about the Torah, Gospels, Moses and Jesus seems very relevant to the theme of the OP. Our different understandings about the authenticity of Christian and Jewish scripture is central. I would appreciate you stating your view of the current Jewish and Christian scripture and why. I’m answering your questions, perhaps not to your satisfaction, but I’m open about what I believe and why.

that does not answer my question brother. That also doesn't explain which parts you believe and which parts you dont based one what type of criticism. Nothing is explained by these answers.

I thought it was crystal clear actually. Let’s put it another way. The final authority for a Baha’i are the Baha’i sacred scriptures, the authorised interpretations of Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi and the elucidations provided by the Universal House of Justice. Beyond that its a matter of independent investigation of reality.

So you have taken a sceptics approach. Do you apply the same approach to the prophecies?

Abdu’l-Baha clearly outlines the problem with a literal interpretation of the resurrection.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 103-105

I’ve provided you with Bahá’u’lláh’s commentary in regards to two verses from the Olivet discourse. This commentary has significant implications for Baha’is and how we should approach not only those two verses but other similar verses too.

Having one or two around does not mean they had anything to do with it. These are beliefs, not scholarship. Though you claim you agree with modern scholarship.

Let me ask you a question. What did you mean when you said you agree with modern scholarship? Rather than nitpicking off your answers lets clear that.

Scholarship is part of independent investigation of reality providing its approached in the correct manner. Scholarship can be biased or objective.

Errm. Not really brother. Yes, there is more definitive evidence for 2nd Peter but 1st also was never written by Peter. Its written pseudonymously.

An excellent example really. Were these two New Testament books written by the Apostle Peter? What do the Baha’i writings say? What is the evidence for and against Peter’s authorship?

There is a letter from the Universal House of Justice which indirectly suggests at least one of these books were written by Peter. Besides the primacy of Peter is affirmed by Shoghi Effendi. So for me the question is undecided but I’m leaning towards both books being authored by Peter.

 

[CG Didymus]

Their arguments are remarkably similar to those used by Christians as to why Bahá’u’lláh can’t be the Return of Christ.

Things in Matthew 2 seem to me way out of context. “Out of Egypt I called my son.” “A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more.” "He will be called a Nazarene."

Matthew is the only one that claims the family went to Egypt and that Herod had the children killed. Did he make those things up to "fulfill" prophecy? You, as a Baha'i, I would imagine you have to affirm those things happened. But to a Jew, they could very easily be seen as manufactured prophecies and therefore false. Right there is enough for them to reject the rest of what Matthew and the other gospel writers say.

The Son of Man is a Messianic title that Christ uses to refer to Himself throughout all four Gospels.

The "Son of Man" and "The Lamb of God" to me mean Jesus. In that other epic thread a couple years ago, one of the Baha'is said that he felt the "Lamb that was Slain" was The Bab because The Bab was shot by a firing squad, thus slain, whereas Jesus was crucified. For me there are other verses that make it sound like any reference to and "Lamb" meant Jesus. But, what about the "Son of Man". The verses in that Olivet discourse say that it is the "Son of Man" returning.

So, why would any Christian think that it wasn't Jesus coming back? Jesus could have easily said that God will send others like me... that I'm going to be killed but my Spirit will live on and be with God. But no, the NT makes it sound like it is Jesus coming back, and, that other thing, that he came back to life physically. So, since we don't know who wrote it. Since traditions were going around. Why couldn't they be wrong? Why couldn't they have written things that Jesus never said nor did, like walk on water and ascend into heaven. Why couldn't they have written an account that makes Jesus the one and only Son of God and that he is coming back on a white horse to punish evil doers and cast the devil into the lake of fire?

I know Baha'is need to support the Bible and the NT, but there is so much there that Baha'is can't support and have to find an alternative meaning. Like people coming out of their graves and walking around Jerusalem. Like Jesus saying he is flesh and bone, implying that he had come back to life. Like the walking on water thing. Other religions had their myth. Why can't Christianity? In those other myths there could be moral and spiritual lessons to be learned, but the story was fictional. Is the NT somewhere in between? That's what it seems like the Baha'is are doing. The prophecies, when interpreted correctly are accurate and true. The spiritual teachings of Jesus are absolutely the Word of God. He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven? Not real, but symbolic. And Baha'is are the only ones that know which verses and which stories are which.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Return of the Christ or Messiah marked the end of the Christian era.

Which was Muhammad? Yet, almost all the major religions are still going? God has to work on transitioning between his religions better. The way he is doing it is not working out very well.

 

[CG Didymus]

I see the biggest veil to us understanding the Return, is our own perceived knowledge about it

Speaking of the Return, I have a couple posts for you on your thread. I hope you can find time to get to them.

But wait, our biggest veil? God had all these things written down in veiled language. He has beasts and dragons and stars falling out of the sky. He makes it sound like Jesus is the one coming back when all the time it was The Spirit of Christ that was returning? No one knew any of this until Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha' interpreted all the vague and strange predictions about the events surrounding the Return?

Hmmm? So Jews were veiled from seeing that Jesus didn't come to usher in peace and harmony. Christians were veiled from seeing that Muhammad had come to fix the problems of the Christians misinterpreting their Scriptures. And all of them have been veiled to see how The Bab and Baha'u'llah have fulfilled every prophecy from every major religion. But, what about bringing peace? That's not fulfilled yet? But I get it. That's a veil for the Christians. They're expecting Jesus to come and bring peace. Since he didn't come himself, and because there is no peace, they are veiled from seeing that actually Christ has returned over a hundred years ago as Baha'u'llah. How did they miss that!

 

[Vinayaka]

Speaking of the Return, I have a couple posts for you on your thread. I hope you can find time to get to them.

But wait, our biggest veil? God had all these things written down in veiled language. He has beasts and dragons and stars falling out of the sky. He makes it sound like Jesus is the one coming back when all the time it was The Spirit of Christ that was returning? No one knew any of this until Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha' interpreted all the vague and strange predictions about the events surrounding the Return?

Hmmm? So Jews were veiled from seeing that Jesus didn't come to usher in peace and harmony. Christians were veiled from seeing that Muhammad had come to fix the problems of the Christians misinterpreting their Scriptures. And all of them have been veiled to see how The Bab and Baha'u'llah have fulfilled every prophecy from every major religion. But, what about bringing peace? That's not fulfilled yet? But I get it. That's a veil for the Christians. They're expecting Jesus to come and bring peace. Since he didn't come himself, and because there is no peace, they are veiled from seeing that actually Christ has returned over a hundred years ago as Baha'u'llah. How did they miss that!

Have you ever considered work as a standup cynic/comic? I nominate you.