The Second Coming

[Muffled]

Revelation is a letter addressed to 7 churches.

I believe It is true that the book does contain those letters early in the writing.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Its just not that complicated. He addressed the 7 churches.

The letter was originally a Jewish writing without Jesus or the Apostles. Apocryphal literature was VERY popular for about 300 years.

Can you provide the evidence that the letters were extant prior to John, without that it is only your word.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I believe It is true that the book does contain those letters early in the writing.

What do you mean, surely not just the fact that the letters appear early in the Book, Rev 2 and 3?

 

[sooda]

Can you provide the evidence that the letters were extant prior to John, without that it is only your word.

I have already linked it twice.

 

[sooda]

I believe It is true that the book does contain those letters early in the writing.

The "book" is a letter that was read aloud to each of the 7 Jewish assemblies.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I have already linked it twice.

Forgive me sooda but I can't find the relevant link, can you provide a post # number, or post the link again, thanks.

 

[sooda]

Forgive me sooda but I can't find the relevant link, can you provide a post # number, or post the link again, thanks.

Revelation of John, the original Jewish version ...
historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html
The Jewish original version of Revelation (or Apocalypse) of John, much more coherent than the final one, was written very likely (in Greek) late 70 or 71 C.E. in Syrian Antioch by a temple of Jerusalem ex-priest named John. This work offered an explanation for the holocaust of 70 C.E., with the destruction of Jerusalem & its temple, all of that at the hands of the Romans, and also a badly needed hope for the …

 

[sooda]

Can A Pre-Christian Version of the Book of Revelation Be ...
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/can-a...
May 25, 2018 · This is a rather astounding phenomenon and once one sees it it seems clear that the underlying original text remains intact and makes complete sense without these references: Rev 1:1 The revelation [ of Jesus Christ ,] which God gave [ him ] to show his servants what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Revelation of John, the original Jewish version ...
historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html
The Jewish original version of Revelation (or Apocalypse) of John, much more coherent than the final one, was written very likely (in Greek) late 70 or 71 C.E. in Syrian Antioch by a temple of Jerusalem ex-priest named John. This work offered an explanation for the holocaust of 70 C.E., with the destruction of Jerusalem & its temple, all of that at the hands of the Romans, and also a badly needed hope for the …

Thank you sooda. So I have read some of his stuff and I am not impressed with his claim, kudos to him as a non-scholar to dive in like this, he may even have uncovered some historical facts, but he has not proven his case.

Here is an interesting discussion at Biblical Criticism & History Forum among members, including Bernard Muller himself, wrt his 'case'. I have not gone over all the pro and anti arguments one by one for obvious reasons when you read the detail arguments to and fro wrt Bernard's case, it is heavy right up, as is Bernard's writings themselves, but I've done enough to make a call, long story short, not buying.

Bernard Muller's 'case' - Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

 

[sooda]

Thank you sooda. So I have read some of his stuff and I am not impressed with his claim, kudos to him as a non-scholar to dive in like this, he may even have uncovered some historical facts, but he has not proven his case.

Here is an interesting discussion at a Biblical Criticism & History Forum among members, including Bernard Muller himself, wrt his 'case'. I have not gone over all the pro and anti arguments one by one for obvious reasons when you read the detail arguments to and fro wrt Bernard's case, it is heavy right up, as is Bernard's writings themselves. Long story short, not buying.

Bernard Muller's 'case' - Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

I am not defending Muller.

Fact is that apocalyptic writing was VERY popular from abut 200 BC to 100 AD.. Everybody and their cousin was writing about the apocalypse.

 

[sooda]

REVELATION (BOOK OF) - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Jewish Origin.

The last book in the New Testament canon, yet in fact one of the oldest; probably the only Judæo-Christian work which has survived the Paulinian transformation of the Church. The introductory verse betrays the complicated character of the whole work. It presents the book as a "Revelation which God gave . . . to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass," and at the same time as a revelation of Jesus Christ to "his servant John." According to recent investigations, the latter part was interpolated by the compiler, who worked the two sections of the book—the main apocalypse (ch. iv.-xxi. 6) and the letters to the "seven churches" (i.-iii. and close of xxii.)—into one so as to make the whole appear as emanating from John, the seer of the isle of Patmos in Asia Minor (see i. 9, xxii. 8), known otherwise as John the Presbyter. The anti-Paulinian character of the letters to the seven churches and the anti-Roman character of the apocalyptic section have been a source of great embarrassment, especially to Protestant theologians, ever since the days of Luther; but the apocalypse has become especially important to Jewish students since it has been discovered by Vischer (see bibliography) that the main apocalypse actually belongs to Jewish apocalyptic literature.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

REVELATION (BOOK OF) - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Jewish Origin.

The last book in the New Testament canon, yet in fact one of the oldest; probably the only Judæo-Christian work which has survived the Paulinian transformation of the Church. The introductory verse betrays the complicated character of the whole work. It presents the book as a "Revelation which God gave . . . to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass," and at the same time as a revelation of Jesus Christ to "his servant John." According to recent investigations, the latter part was interpolated by the compiler, who worked the two sections of the book—the main apocalypse (ch. iv.-xxi. 6) and the letters to the "seven churches" (i.-iii. and close of xxii.)—into one so as to make the whole appear as emanating from John, the seer of the isle of Patmos in Asia Minor (see i. 9, xxii. 8), known otherwise as John the Presbyter. The anti-Paulinian character of the letters to the seven churches and the anti-Roman character of the apocalyptic section have been a source of great embarrassment, especially to Protestant theologians, ever since the days of Luther; but the apocalypse has become especially important to Jewish students since it has been discovered by Vischer (see bibliography) that the main apocalypse actually belongs to Jewish apocalyptic literature.

"According to recent investigations," jumps out at me, who did these investigations and where are the details?

 

[sooda]

"According to recent investigations," jumps out at me, who did these investigations and where are the details?

Revelation of John, the original Jewish version ...
historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html
A) Introduction: From The Catholic Encyclopedia "... the theory advanced by the German scholar Vischer. He holds the Apocalypse to have been originally a purely Jewish composition, and to have been changed into a Christian work by the insertion of those sections that deal with Christian subjects. From a doctrinal point of view, we think, it cannot be objected to.

Apocalypse Commentaries Study Archive @ PreteristArchive ...
https://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/ApocalypseCommentaries/index.html
A small school of critics, headed by EBERHARD VISCHER, 1885, endorsed by HARNACK, has assailed the integrity of the Apocalypse, maintaining that it was written at different dates and shaped by a redactor. Thus VISCHER holds that it was originally Jewish, and …

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Revelation
of John, the original Jewish version ...
historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html
A) Introduction: From The Catholic Encyclopedia "... the theory advanced by the German scholar Vischer. He holds the Apocalypse to have been originally a purely Jewish composition, and to have been changed into a Christian work by the insertion of those sections that deal with Christian subjects. From a doctrinal point of view, we think, it cannot be objected to.

Apocalypse Commentaries Study Archive @ PreteristArchive ...
https://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/ApocalypseCommentaries/index.html
A small school of critics, headed by EBERHARD VISCHER, 1885, endorsed by HARNACK, has assailed the integrity of the Apocalypse, maintaining that it was written at different dates and shaped by a redactor. Thus VISCHER holds that it was originally Jewish, and …

A view by BY REV. S. M. JACKSON, M.A

Eberkard Vischer's Theory of the Composition of the Revelation. IN October, 1886, the third part of the second volume of Gebhardt and Harnack's Texte und Untersuchungen zur Geschich/e der alt- christlichen Literatur, appeared bearing the separate title, Die Offen- barungJohannis einejiidische Apokalypse in christlicher Bearbeitung, von EBERHARD VISCHER. HMit einem Nachwort von Adolf Harnack, Leipzig, 1886.

The object of this note is to give a brief account of Vischer's treatise. Its title states its purport, viz. to prove that the Revelation is a Jewish Apocalypse in a Christian redaction. The occasion for this theory was the thesis Professor Harnack set at Giessen early in 1885 : " The theological standpoint of the author of the Revelation of John." When Mr. Vischer, who was one of his pupils, remarked to him that 94 JOURNAL OF THE EXEGETICAL SOCIETY. he was shut up to the theory he has since elaborated, Professor Har- nack snubbed him, but after a few days invited the young man to talk to him further about his discovery, and lo ! as he read the Revelation under his new guide, "the scales fell from his eyes" (p. i26), and he saw clearly what no man living, nor, we venture to say, any man ever before, had seen, that the Revelation, the despair of commentators and the terror of the feeble-minded, was in its present shape a pious fraud; that like the "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs " it is a Jewish book worked over by a Christian (p. 6). Is it not in order now to claim that the two books have equal value ?

But what proof does Mr. Vischer offer? He begins by remarking upon the fact that Jewish Apocalypses had undergone Christian redac- tion, and so there is nothing remarkable in the supposition that the only specimen in the New Testament has been similarly treated (p. 2). He then passes on to speak of some passages in it which show this double character (p. 4). To the objection that a Jewish Apocalypse was a curious thing to find in the N. T. canon he replies, that the popularity of this kind of literature among early Christians is sufficient answer (pp. 8 sqq). He then comes to the solution of the problem. The first three chapters are plainly Christian, and the following seven are too devoid of traces of time, so he begins with Chapters XI. and XII., which together present a clear historical picture (p. 13). He then points out the decidedly Jewish features of these chapters - the allusion to the temple, the two witnesses, the destruction of the holy city, the great sign in heaven, etc.; also the Christian interpolations, e.g. xi. 8, "1which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified "; v. 15, " and of his Christ "; xii. ii, " and they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death "; v. 17, "of Jesus." Having thus shown that "the ex- amination of the eleventh and twelfth chapters has made the hypoth- esis extraordinarily probable that the basis of the Apocalypse is a purely Jewish writing" (p. 33), he proceeds to pick out the Christian portions and interpolations (pp. 33-76), and closes his broc/zure with the proof that the remainder is a purely Jewish whole (pp. 76-91), complete in itself without the interpolations. How he does the two latter things can best be seen in his book.

Continues....

https://ia801700.us.archive.org/30/items/jstor-3268783/3268783.pdf

 

[sooda]

A view by BY REV. S. M. JACKSON, M.A

Eberkard Vischer's Theory of the Composition of the Revelation. IN October, 1886, the third part of the second volume of Gebhardt and Harnack's Texte und Untersuchungen zur Geschich/e der alt- christlichen Literatur, appeared bearing the separate title, Die Offen- barungJohannis einejiidische Apokalypse in christlicher Bearbeitung, von EBERHARD VISCHER. HMit einem Nachwort von Adolf Harnack, Leipzig, 1886.

The object of this note is to give a brief account of Vischer's treatise. Its title states its purport, viz. to prove that the Revelation is a Jewish Apocalypse in a Christian redaction. The occasion for this theory was the thesis Professor Harnack set at Giessen early in 1885 : " The theological standpoint of the author of the Revelation of John." When Mr. Vischer, who was one of his pupils, remarked to him that 94 JOURNAL OF THE EXEGETICAL SOCIETY. he was shut up to the theory he has since elaborated, Professor Har- nack snubbed him, but after a few days invited the young man to talk to him further about his discovery, and lo ! as he read the Revelation under his new guide, "the scales fell from his eyes" (p. i26), and he saw clearly what no man living, nor, we venture to say, any man ever before, had seen, that the Revelation, the despair of commentators and the terror of the feeble-minded, was in its present shape a pious fraud; that like the "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs " it is a Jewish book worked over by a Christian (p. 6). Is it not in order now to claim that the two books have equal value ?

But what proof does Mr. Vischer offer? He begins by remarking upon the fact that Jewish Apocalypses had undergone Christian redac- tion, and so there is nothing remarkable in the supposition that the only specimen in the New Testament has been similarly treated (p. 2). He then passes on to speak of some passages in it which show this double character (p. 4). To the objection that a Jewish Apocalypse was a curious thing to find in the N. T. canon he replies, that the popularity of this kind of literature among early Christians is sufficient answer (pp. 8 sqq). He then comes to the solution of the problem. The first three chapters are plainly Christian, and the following seven are too devoid of traces of time, so he begins with Chapters XI. and XII., which together present a clear historical picture (p. 13). He then points out the decidedly Jewish features of these chapters - the allusion to the temple, the two witnesses, the destruction of the holy city, the great sign in heaven, etc.; also the Christian interpolations, e.g. xi. 8, "1which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified "; v. 15, " and of his Christ "; xii. ii, " and they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death "; v. 17, "of Jesus." Having thus shown that "the ex- amination of the eleventh and twelfth chapters has made the hypoth- esis extraordinarily probable that the basis of the Apocalypse is a purely Jewish writing" (p. 33), he proceeds to pick out the Christian portions and interpolations (pp. 33-76), and closes his broc/zure with the proof that the remainder is a purely Jewish whole (pp. 76-91), complete in itself without the interpolations. How he does the two latter things can best be seen in his book.

We have now fulfilled our intention of briefly outlining the book, and giving a specimen of its contents. Professor Harnack and we understand, Professors Dillmann and Schtirer also, have given in NOTES. 95 their assent to the theory. Those who wish to read brief discussions of it are referred to Mr. Robert B. Drummond's notice in The Academy for Feb. 12, 1887, in which he says that it "may perhaps turn out to be the most remarkable discovery in N. T. criticism of any in this century "; and to Rev. W. H. Simcox's article, " The New Theory of the Apocalypse " in The Expositor for June, 1887 (pp. 425-443), to which my attention was kindly called by Professor H. G. Mitchell. The interest the theory has already excited makes its further dis- cussion advisable. Professor V6lter's much more improbable theory (Die Entstehung der Apokalypse, Ttibingen, I882; 2d ed. I885), was deemed worthy of a learned criticism by no less a person than Pro- fessor B. B. Warfield, in the Presbyterian Review for April, 1884 (pp. 228-265).

We would that Professor Warfield might subject Mr. Vischer's book to a similarly skilful treatment. It is so plausible, and removes so many difficulties, that its discussion is much more demanded than V61ter's ever was. In closing we remark that the prompt and flattering notice of Mr. Vischer's book has stirred up Professor V61ter, whose theory met with little or no approbation, as far as we know, to write a pamphlet, Die Offenbarung Johannis keine urspriinglick jiidische Apokalypse. Eine Streitschrift gegen die Herren Harnack und Vischer, TUibingen, i886 (p. 49). Professor V6lter teaches that the Apocalypse is made up of strata of different dates; Mr. Vischer that it is a Jewish original, prefaced and interfused with Christian matter. The one may be called the geologic, the other the chemicalZtheory of the origin of the Revelation. For the present we hold to the old-fashioned view that John, the Beloved Disciple, wrote the book under divine inspiration from beginning to end.

https://ia801700.us.archive.org/30/items/jstor-3268783/3268783.pdf

I don't think anything in the Bible is original.. I think its been redacted and amended and added to update prophecy after the fact.. Not easy for me to accept until I finally got the Book of Daniel.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I don't think anything in the Bible is original.. I think its been redacted and amended and added to update prophecy after the fact.. Not easy for me to accept until I finally got the Book of Daniel.

Of course it is, as I've tried to explain, reality is forever on the other side of conceptual teaching or revelation. There is a great irony in that the reality that is represented by the conceptual transmission wrt religious teaching, can not be apprehended until one ceases to use their thinking mind to understand. Don't get me wrong, when one is young and after reading scripture takes it literally, it is great step on the path, but the child must learn to actually walk that walk if they are to realize the truth represented by that which they believe. In the process, if they do walk that walk, comes a time when their mind will 'see' THAT beyond the words, then the real journey begins, one is on an inner journey that can really change the world,

 

[Muffled]

What are you talking about? The third temple was destroyed by earthquake and fire ..

Rebuilding the Jewish Temple, in 363 A.D. - Bible Probe
bibleprobe.com/rebuildingthetemple.htm
In 363 A.D., egged on by the Roman Emperor Julian the Apostate, the Jews tore down every remaining stone from the old temple to begin rebuilding it. ... very small, Jewish groups support constructing a Third Temple today, but most Jews oppose this, for a variety of reasons. ... and that the Temple's destruction and the subsequent exile was the ...

Every building in the world like the Empire State building, The Sears building in Chicago, The Louvre in Paris (sob!) the Taj Mahal in India and the list is endless isn't it?

 

[Muffled]

I am absolutely at peace with God.

i

Ii believe the question might be "is God at peace with you ?"

 

[Muffled]

Jesus was very clear about who the letter was addressed to and when it would happen. Tim Lahaye and Hal Lindsey don't care about that.

I believe it is clear which begs the question as to why you don't understand it.