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The Science of Human Evolution

NoGuru

Don't be serious. Seriously

giphy.gif


At its core sexual selection
[...]
Cool?

I'm tracking.

It's interesting though to think of division between "sexes" at the cellular level, and then to see those spawn into full grown "mammals."

In my mind, it's still quite the stretch (what isn't when trying to understand a universe exponentially older than what we can comprehend??)

Reason being; so let's follow this. We have cells that will "split", makes sense... even from a purely Darwinian standpoint that makes sense, if you have two pairs to exchange information (one "male" and one "female") you increase the odds that a much better combination can be found. It's hard to grasp however, that those two single celled organisms to morph into matching primates, or even at the basic level let's consider spiders. Imagine if you will, the immense strides life would have to go through to ensure that both male and female pairs continued to evolve in a matching pair. Think of a wolf spider vs. a black widow. The evolution that life would have to follow is mind blowing simply to maintain the integrity of each species!

Again, we have 4.5 billion years to work with... so what's NOT possible?

Scientists are specifically trained to rule out false positives. You are talking about trained audio technicians here whose task and entire learning is to separate signal from the noise. I routinely find trace chemicals in air at parts per billion level through training and instrumentation. Such capability is the basic bread and butter for every scientist. We can always be better, but would you not heed my advice if I say your water has ppb levels of a poison or a micro-organism that makes it unsafe? Why do you not ask questions about how we could ever do this and not follow the advice then?

Such is the fault of every man. If I truly believe there's nothing wrong with my water, why the f*** would I listen to some jack hole scientist???

It is interesting though. Another point to consider is that some of these shows have no "trained specialists" to pick out voices... they hear a pattern and repeat what they think they heard. Think of DDT. Sprayed it everywhere because it was safe. Then we found out that it was hurting the Eagles eggs. Then we found out that study was produced by some lobbying group. So what's the truth there? There are links between DDT and skin cancer, but can I even believe that anymore?

Doubt... it's a hell of a drug.

There is no such thing and there can be no such thing. Every species is a transition between one past species and one future species. Think of it this way.
[...]
That's evidence. There are lots like it.

This makes sense. My understanding of evolution is that everything takes an ungodly amount of time (no pun intended). So to develop a tail for example, you first have a generation with a nub. Then you have a generation with a larger nub. The process continues until many years later you wind up with a tail. Hence my comment about something happening to where massive changes were needed very quickly. If anything, life is very clever about adapting.

Now, it makes sense to think of it this way.... it just seems that between the ground I walk on and dinosaur fossils (a time we "know" pre-existed primates), I would've come across something showing a bit more "progression" between the various species.This again casts much doubt.

How atrociously absurd!

[...]

There are two books that I would highly recommend to balance the Eurasia centric perspective of history many of us have (and lead to such crazy notions that aliens made those stuff in those other places as surely these savages couldn't could they?).

Whoah, slow down.

That wasn't my point at all. One held hypothesis was that this was the origin of the huge leap. It certainly lends to extraterrestrial intervention, but not solely of their doing. Simply that the people who inhabited those lands had a much more advanced understanding of the natural world around us than we seem to grasp today. For example, if you were to look at those structures from high elevation, you see very intricate patterns that resemble understanding of some very advanced geometrical stuff. Straight lines across hundreds of miles. Not something a "savage" would willy nilly accomplish. To your point below, people were as smart then as we are today, they just saw the world differently.

An interesting side note: The Hebrew word for God as used in Genesis 1:1 is Elohim, which directly translated means "Gods"... plural.

As soon as there is evidence. Basic fact, aliens coming from outerspace would make things out of steel, titanium or other exotic materials, not granite and stone like pre-industrial civilizations. People were as clever and as intelligent 6000 years ago as they are today, and their expertise in the materials they used then (stone) far exceed ours. Heck, I can't even make fire without a match or a lighter. And SETI and exoplanet search is actively looking for aliens. It would be great news if we do see that they have visited here before. But remember..false positives? Scientists are trained to detect false positives first and foremost.

Like the machined stone(s) in Egypt.

It's a fair judgement... there's there interesting Russian film called "Hard to be a God." It's a horribly boring flick, but interesting because they are travelers to another time and dimension where those people are just witnessing their precibus change. They cannot interfere nor leave evidence they were there.

Again, not promoting belief in such a line of thinking, but I imagine if some species was smart enough to "create" us, they would also be smart enough not to leave their red bull cans on the ground when they bounced out.

Groupism is nothing new. If its not that it will be football...

True that.... wait, you mean proper football or American football.... there's a huge difference ;)

Thats like asking why we can only find puzzle pieces before being able to complete a puzzle. Really every fossil is a piece of the puzzle, every last one of the ape fossils tells part of the story, and apes certainly weren't around during dinosaurs, species don't just rise out of the ground fully formed.

Which is a fair counter. Seems as much as we've discovered, we'd have found those pieces though. However, the above replies clarify my responses to this quote.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
giphy.gif




I'm tracking.

It's interesting though to think of division between "sexes" at the cellular level, and then to see those spawn into full grown "mammals."

In my mind, it's still quite the stretch (what isn't when trying to understand a universe exponentially older than what we can comprehend??)

Reason being; so let's follow this. We have cells that will "split", makes sense... even from a purely Darwinian standpoint that makes sense, if you have two pairs to exchange information (one "male" and one "female") you increase the odds that a much better combination can be found. It's hard to grasp however, that those two single celled organisms to morph into matching primates, or even at the basic level let's consider spiders. Imagine if you will, the immense strides life would have to go through to ensure that both male and female pairs continued to evolve in a matching pair. Think of a wolf spider vs. a black widow. The evolution that life would have to follow is mind blowing simply to maintain the integrity of each species!

Again, we have 4.5 billion years to work with... so what's NOT possible?

But it simply is not the case that the ancestral stock of animals with a spinal chord that were quite similar to each other and lived in the oceans 500 million years ago continued to mate among themselves without difficulty and continued to retain that match over time. If they did there would still be just one species of this vertebrate animal living till now. Instead, the same animal, living in different locales did change enough to become different enough that they could not match up with their kins in other locales. That is why speciation happens and that is why there are over a million different vertebrate species (fish, bird, reptiles, mammals) in completely split lineages in the world. That's the thing with sexual reproduction. You can mate only with close neighbors , daughters of people whose great great great great great great (add 200 more greats) grandparents were the same as your great, great, great.....great grandparents. Basically incest 200-1000 generations removed. As soon as that link becomes 100,000 generation removed instead of 1000, reproduction becomes dodgy, and at a million generations remove that prospective female probably has a tail and is jumping in the trees.



Such is the fault of every man. If I truly believe there's nothing wrong with my water, why the f*** would I listen to some jack hole scientist???

Because you are paying them to ensure water quality?

It is interesting though. Another point to consider is that some of these shows have no "trained specialists" to pick out voices... they hear a pattern and repeat what they think they heard. Think of DDT. Sprayed it everywhere because it was safe. Then we found out that it was hurting the Eagles eggs. Then we found out that study was produced by some lobbying group. So what's the truth there? There are links between DDT and skin cancer, but can I even believe that anymore?

I think its pretty certain the DDT is very toxic (just like lead or asbestos). You have to rely on other peoples' knowledge for most things (yelp reviews come to mind). Why not people who are being specifically trained for such job. People goof up all the time, if you are expecting infallibility and no human weakness, maybe that is too much an ask? Trust, but verify. How about that?

Doubt... it's a hell of a drug.
Blue pill or the Red Pill Neo.



This makes sense. My understanding of evolution is that everything takes an ungodly amount of time (no pun intended). So to develop a tail for example, you first have a generation with a nub. Then you have a generation with a larger nub. The process continues until many years later you wind up with a tail. Hence my comment about something happening to where massive changes were needed very quickly. If anything, life is very clever about adapting.

Now, it makes sense to think of it this way.... it just seems that between the ground I walk on and dinosaur fossils (a time we "know" pre-existed primates), I would've come across something showing a bit more "progression" between the various species.This again casts much doubt.
Well the dinosaurs decked themselves in red and blue feathers and flew away from the ground chirping (literally). The extinction of the dinosaurs is fast becoming the ascension of the dinosaurs into the sky. Very Zen of them, but that is another story. But what kind of progression are you looking for specifically?

Fun fact:- T-rex probably had bright feathers and screeched like an ostrich. They also might have pirouetted around to attract the more drab feathered females. Ridiculously Big Bird King more like. Oh how the mighty have fallen!

https://www.allaboutbirds.org/they-...ready-to-see-dinosaurs-as-they-really-were-2/

Anyways back to the topic...



Whoah, slow down.

That wasn't my point at all. One held hypothesis was that this was the origin of the huge leap. It certainly lends to extraterrestrial intervention, but not solely of their doing. Simply that the people who inhabited those lands had a much more advanced understanding of the natural world around us than we seem to grasp today. For example, if you were to look at those structures from high elevation, you see very intricate patterns that resemble understanding of some very advanced geometrical stuff. Straight lines across hundreds of miles. Not something a "savage" would willy nilly accomplish. To your point below, people were as smart then as we are today, they just saw the world differently.

An interesting side note: The Hebrew word for God as used in Genesis 1:1 is Elohim, which directly translated means "Gods"... plural.

If you look at a modern toiwnship or village in developing world (very unplanned) you will also see a lot of intricate patterns. They are just more evident when no people are left. Also you forget that these were high plateaus and you can appreciate the art from other nearby plateaus. Anyways i have provided a source book where archaelogists have investigated the site. Here is a somewhat introductory (but free) write up
http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.ed...=A_Google_Earth_Survey_of_Bokoni_Settleme.pdf

I just don't see what so superhuman here. Anyways these were done in the 12th-16th century, well within history and orally remembered too in South African tradition.



Like the machined stone(s) in Egypt.

It's a fair judgement... there's there interesting Russian film called "Hard to be a God." It's a horribly boring flick, but interesting because they are travelers to another time and dimension where those people are just witnessing their precibus change. They cannot interfere nor leave evidence they were there.

Again, not promoting belief in such a line of thinking, but I imagine if some species was smart enough to "create" us, they would also be smart enough not to leave their red bull cans on the ground when they bounced out.

Thing with Egypt is that its clearly written in the walls of the pyramid that this or that pharaoh made it. There are entire village settlement remains of workers who worked on these pyramid and sphinx and entire tomes have been written on their life and works. I am unclear why they would come, call themselves Gods, commission stone buildings to house mummies of dead human kings, teach them absolute rubbish about the universe and the world, forget to tell them about iron working and disappear. I can start an entire thread on Egyptian history and tell you how between 8000 BCE to 3000 BCE the Sahara was green with forests, rivers and lakes. How lots of people lived throughout that immense land hunting and fishing and leaving rock art. How the Sahara began to dry up and desertify rapidly from 4000 BCE, leading a huge influx of people into the last remaining refuge, the valley of the Nile, spurring rapid settlement urbanization and formation of a sophisticated monarchy capable of building the pyramids. But here is the last lingering resident of this ancient Sahara. Dwarf Nile crocodiles recently found in deep caves in what is now an arid desert.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/06/0617_020618_croc.html



True that.... wait, you mean proper football or American football.... there's a huge difference ;)

LOL. Lets fight on that...:p

By the way, greatly appreciate such reasonable response. Being curious and learning new things Can't ask for more. Also I get share fun stories. :)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Thats like asking why we can only find puzzle pieces before being able to complete a puzzle. Really every fossil is a piece of the puzzle, every last one of the ape fossils tells part of the story, and apes certainly weren't around during dinosaurs, species don't just rise out of the ground fully formed.

Isn't that like saying someone found a really old novel that had an interesting forward and a fabulous ending, but all the middle pages were missing. There were a few letters dug up in another place, but they look like the same letters that must be missing from the original novel.....lets put them together and see if we can make up the middle of the story.
157fs837411.gif
.....sounds close enough......
 
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NoGuru

Don't be serious. Seriously
But it simply is not the case that the ancestral stock of animals with a spinal chord that were quite similar to each other

[...reproductive and speciation retort...]

Interesting... I have no reply to this.

Because you are paying them to ensure water quality?

Well sure, if I solicit services then I'm expecting an opinion I probably respect. That comment was more sarcasm hinting at the close mindedness of many a man when truth contends our beliefs. Like telling a husband his wife has been cheating. Denial is the first and and immediate response (circumstances dictating) followed by anger at the person revealing the act. "Shoot the messenger" kind of thing.

I think its pretty certain the DDT is very toxic (just like lead or asbestos). You have to rely on other peoples' knowledge for most things (yelp reviews come to mind). Why not people who are being specifically trained for such job. People goof up all the time, if you are expecting infallibility and no human weakness, maybe that is too much an ask? Trust, but verify. How about that?

Is Global Warming real? This is a very interesting subject (not because I doubt it or anything of the such) because the progression of the science around global warming and it's place in American politics was truly a thing out of a spy novel. So, samples were collected, data crunched and reports written. Now in those reports, very clever men would change specific words so as to cast doubt. Instead "causing," they changed it to "may cause." Instead of "responsible for" it became "could effect." I forget the documentary that detailed all this but it was fascinating how inserting just a bit of uncertainty would halt action and suspend judgement or even thought about it altogether. So scientists knew in the early 70's that something was amiss. They write reports and those reports get changed to all "maybe's." Well.... since it's just a maybe, no need to do anything about it now. And here we are, climate changes have happened decades before previous predictions.

That was my point with the DDT. "It's okay, no it's not, well that's not true, it will kill you, it's awesome".... at this point maybe it's safe to drink? (sarcasm)

Blue pill or the Red Pill Neo.

In a bag of assorted blue and red pills.

Fun fact:- T-rex probably had bright feathers and screeched like an ostrich.

Bro... come on. I've seen Jurassic Park. I KNOW what a Trex sounds like.

If you look at a modern toiwnship

[...]
South African tradition.

I'll read through that after posting.

I believe the fascination with the site in South Africa arose from the mathematics used over such large distances. In the lecture I watched, they pointed out the relation to sacred geometry. Not just the relation, but the adherence to such. Potentially nothing superhuman, simply fascinating for so much (if not all) of the structures to adhere to such ratios over such a large geographical area. However, I'll read this source first before going on.


Thing with Egypt is that its clearly written in the walls of the pyramid that this or that pharaoh made it. There are entire village settlement remains of workers who worked on these pyramid and sphinx and entire tomes have been written on their life and works. I am unclear why they would come, call themselves Gods, commission stone buildings to house mummies of dead human kings, teach them absolute rubbish about the universe and the world, forget to tell them about iron working and disappear. I can start an entire thread on Egyptian history and tell you how between 8000 BCE to 3000 BCE the Sahara was green with forests, rivers and lakes. How lots of people lived throughout that immense land hunting and fishing and leaving rock art. How the Sahara began to dry up and desertify rapidly from 4000 BCE, leading a huge influx of people into the last remaining refuge, the valley of the Nile, spurring rapid settlement urbanization and formation of a sophisticated monarchy capable of building the pyramids. But here is the last lingering resident of this ancient Sahara. Dwarf Nile crocodiles recently found in deep caves in what is now an arid desert.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/06/0617_020618_croc.html

Here's a section I've heard a LOT of controversy on.

  • My understanding was that is was prior to 10,000 BCE that the Sahara was green.
  • Water erosion on the South(?) wall of the sphinx indicates the structure predates that time... by a lot.
  • Differences in stone used and repair work indicate the Egyptians did not build the sphinx, but dug more of it out... finished the body, per say.
  • The three "Great" pyramids are not tombs at all. Kings were always found with riches, and there were none found in these
  • The inside of the great pyramid (the largest) indicates that a blast happened inside. The marble stone is charred and the box (what many refer to as the tomb) has a giant crack in it. This of course has produced massive amounts of speculation as to what it was used for.
  • The location of the great pyramid also indicates it was on the Nile when the Nile flowed in front of it MANY years ago. The presence of the moving water would cause static electricity build up, and some claim it was a source of free energy much like what Tesla was working on before he died. Using the movement of underground water aquifers to generate power. (As the great pyramid as a long marble shaft leading down to what would have once been the Nile, marble being able to act as an insulator).

Re: why ET would come and go?
Uhhhhh..... no clue. It doesn't make much sense to me either. The Fermi Paradox is rather interesting. For as much life as one could assume exists in the vastness of space... alas, nothing. I'm waiting for some message like Jodi Foster got in Contact. Of course there are a billion and one conspiracy theories on alien contact. I'm sure if they exist and have interest in us, our planet, whatever... they probably know how to avoid us if desired. Or maybe not? Maybe they're chillin on the ISS all the conspiracy theories are true... all of them! hahaha. That comment probably just made someone's day.

By the way, greatly appreciate such reasonable response.

Likewise :D
 

AndromedaRXJ

Active Member
You'd think we find those before we got to dinosaur remains, no?
.

No. Why would we think that given the vast number of dinosaur species and their 166 million year reign on this planet? And there's probably still numerous dinosaur species that we don't know about or will ever know about.

Besides, there isn't really a missing link in human evolution, in the sense that we need to find some critical fossil that links us to our ape cousins. We've found more than enough to conclude that (along with genetic evidence, and other forms of evidence). There are minor gaps in the fossil record, but none of them are critical or will tell us anything more than what we already know. The only thing the minor gaps will tell us if we found them, is more details on the species anatomy, behavior, and a slightly more precise view on their evolutionary path.

It's like looking at a painting of a house with a bunch of small holes in the canvas. The holes are the gaps, but you see enough of the painting to know what it's suppose to be. There's enough information in the painting/fossil record to see the bigger picture. We're only missing minor details.
 
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McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Isn't that like saying someone found a really old novel that had an interesting forward and a fabulous ending, but all the middle pages were missing. There were a few letters dug up in another place, but they look like the same letters that must be missing from the original novel.....lets put them together and see if we can make up the middle of the story.
157fs837411.gif
.....sounds close enough......
Of course you think your strawman is good enough.

You already stated that you think strawmen and lies are valid so long as you believe them.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you for the excellent post. As people can see, the earliest branch within the group of primates is between the Lemur-like and Tarsier-like primates. The Lemur like one give rise to modern lemurs and lorises while the tarsier-like one branch more to give rise to monkeys/apes-humans. The evidence for this branch has accumulated recently.

One of the many reasons scientists believe that some kind of evolutionary method explains life is because the patterns found in the fossil record. Remains of animals found millions of years ago look very different than those living today. However as the fossils come from rocks laid down more closer to the present, many of the animals begin to resemble the forms biologists see today. This is true for the case of ourselves too.

In the earliest times after the extinction of the dinosaurs (65-55 million years ago), most of the primates that lived were quite different from modern varieties. But around 55 million years ago, fossils begin to turn up that look like ancestors to modern day lemurs and lorises. These are called Adapids, and the best preserved fossil is that of a species called Darwinius that lived 47 million years ago in Germany. It is an entirely complete skeleton, along with impression of fur and soft tissue, entombed in hardened shale.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwinius
darwinius_masillae.jpg

Meanwhile a somewhat older fossil (55 million years), also encased in shell was found in China. This one, called Archicebus, is an extremely small little primate and have features common to modern day tarsiers and monkeys. It is considered to be one of the species of a closely related group that will eventually lead to tarsiers and monkeys/apes.
http://www.nature.com/news/oldest-pr...veiled-1.13142



Here we see that by 55-50 million years the ancient primates have divided into the two big groups into which all modern day primates belong. One group leads to lemurs and lorises and have species that look like Darwinius , and the other look a mix of tarsiers/monkeys of which Archicebus is a good example.

archicebus_achilles_reconstruction.jpg.size.custom.crop.460x650.jpg


It is also important to note what is not found. None of the modern day monkeys, lemurs, tarsiers, apes are found. What are found are quite distinct creatures that have traits in their body that resemble the modern day primates in some respects. The science of modern day cladistics identifies and quantifies all these traits and thus places these ancient creature in "trees" of resemblances between themselves and the modern primates. There will be many creatures in the millions of years afterwards that begin to resemble the modern creatures more closely until there comes a time (quite recent) when the actual modern forms crop up. This is a prediction of and good evidence for the theory of evolution in the living world.
Last time I posted fossil evidence from 50-55 million years ago that showed the point of divergence between lemur-like primates and tarsier-monkey-ape-like primates. For the next 20 million years these two broad divisions persisted and fossils of primates show no further distinction.

Then around 37-30 million year range, the monkey-ape like primates begin to diverge from their tarsier cousins.
Let me put in some shortcut name:-
Anthropoids:- The category to which New World Monkeys, Old World Monkeys and Apes Belong. The Anthropoids as a group has characters that distinguish it from other primates (like tarsiers or lemurs or lorises)
1) They have relatively smaller sized, forward facing eyes that look in the same direction. Basically a better binocular vision. This is seen in the orbital bone behind their eyes.
2) There is a bony plate behind their eyes that separate the eyes from their cheek muscles and bones (probably isolates them from vibration while chewing).
3) The bone structure in their middle and inner ear is also quite distinctive. The difference is probably to pick out peripheral noise, as the more convergent binocular vision makes the sides less covered relative to other primates.
4) There are also small but distinctive changes in their feet and heel bones.

Catarrhini:- Joint group of Old World Monkeys and Apes. These are the monkeys and apes that live in Asia and Africa.

New World Monkeys (Platyrrhini):- These are the monkeys that live in South America. Despite using the same confusing term "monkey" they are more distantly related (in genealogy as well as characteristics) to the monkeys of Asia-Africa than the apes are related to the monkeys of Asia-Africa. Its like calling Native Americans "Indians".

Difference between Old World Catarhinnis and the New World "monkeys".

1) A major difference is the teeth. While Tarsiers and ancient undifferentiated anthropoids has 3 premolars, the Old World Monkey-Apes lost one premolar to have only two on each half row. So the dental formula of Old World Monkeys-Apes are 2.1.2.3 instead of 2.1.3.3 for the new world monkeys.
2) The nose of Catarhinnis face downwards while that of New World Monkeys face sideways. That is the term Catarhinni means :- "flat nosed". This create distinction in the nasal cavity in skulls as well.

There are also smaller differences in ear bones, skull shapes etc. that act as distinguishing the Old World and New World groups
http://www.cabrillo.edu/~crsmith/monkeycomparisons.html


There is a place in Egypt called the Fayum depression which preserved an astonishingly detailed record of fossil animals and plants that lived in (the then forested) North Africa 37-30 million years ago. Some of the best preserved Anthropoids have been found from this site. This one site has preserved remains of over 20 different primates that straddle the divergence between and within the Anthropoids.

For example we have the fossil of Parapithecus which is a small primate belonging to the Anthropoid group just as they are differentiating from tarsiers and before they have diverged between New World and Old World types. Its a tiny little creature possessing most of the basic anthropoid character but none of the special traits of the New/Old lineages. Note how small it is.
F2.medium.gif


Paper

The same place also provided the remains of the most primitive Catarhinni (Old World monkey-ape). Catopithecus is one such species having the distinct Catarhinni dental formula of 2 premolars instead of three. It has several characteristics of Catarhinni, but many other features are still of the more undifferentiated anthropoid types. So it is almost near the divergence point between the New World and Old World groups of primates.
http://fossils.valdosta.edu/fossil_pages/fossils_ter/p33.html


The same Fayuum sequence also revealed the first fully developed Catarhinni (Old World Ape-Monkey), a species called Aegyptopithecus. Varying in weight from 2-4 kg its quite large among the primates of its time and has all the features of a Catarhinni. Dubbed as the dawn-ape, a species like this is considered the basic ancestral "stock" from which Old World Monkeys and Apes came from. Something that is or is quite close to the species groups that are the common ancestors of all Afro_Asiatic monkeys and apes.

p14_L.gif


Here is an excellent article on what is known about this "dawn ape". Notably while it had good vision, it had quite a small brain compared to modern monkeys or apes.

http://www.livescience.com/1526-human-ancestor-pea-brain.html

What about the New World monkeys? Amazingly, fossils of groups that either were ancestors to "monkeys" of South America or quite closely related to such ancestors turn up in the Fayum depression site as well! This will be the Proteopithecus. They show such a mosaic of New World, general anthropoid and some Old World features that most researchers place them at the very divergence point between the Old and New World groups..maybe slightly in the New World (side-nosed) side of the spectra.

The scientific article analyzing its skull says

ABSTRACT Recent discovery of crania, dentitions, and postcrania of a primitive anthropoidean primate, Proteopithecus sylviae, at the late Eocene L-4l quarry in the Fayum, Egypt, provides evidence of a new taxonomic family of early African higher primates, the Proteopithecidae. This family could be part of the basal radiation that produced the New World platyrrhine primates, or it could be unrelated to any subsequent lineages. Although no larger than a small callitrichid or a dwarf lemur, this tiny primate already possessed many of the derived features of later anthropoids and was a diurnal and probably dimorphic species. In dental formula and other dental proportions, as well as in known postcranial features, Proteopithecus more nearly resembles platyrrhines than does any other Old World higher primate. The small size of the Proteopithecus cranium demonstrates that the defining cranial characteristics of Anthropoidea did not arise as a consequence of an increase in size during derivation from earlier prosimians.

http://www.pnas.org/content/94/26/14970.full.pdf

What is the summary? One sees that in Africa, between 37-30 million years ago, there lived and evolved many kinds of primates that can be placed as basic anthropoids, primates at the divergence point of New World and Old World types and the first Old World monkey-ape type species that are likely to be the ones from which all current Old World moneys and apes came from. Fayum depression and other places show evidence of the branching of the monkey-apes from tarsiers and their eventual further branching into Old world and New World forms during this crucial times. Its hard to see what other than evolution through descent could explain such patterns. Note the pattern. Lemur-like and tarsier-like primates are seen to diverge at 55 mya and they look the furthest apart today. Within the tarsier-like, some groups begin to become more monkey-ape like and diverge themselves into New and Old World monkey-ape types. This is seen to occur later, between 40-30 million years ago (mya), just as evolution would predict. The prediction of sequential, staggered in time, divergence based in current similarity-dissimilarity is a prediction that is confirmed by the past fossil-sequence.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Of course you think your strawman is good enough.
You must think it is to even comment on it.
thankyou.gif


That is exactly how I see evolutionist arguments. Fill in the blanks with imagination
...and really good computer graphics.
SEVeyesC08_th.gif


You already stated that you think strawmen and lies are valid so long as you believe them.
Again with the slurs but no evidence.....big on insults, short on facts.
shame.gif


Where is the concrete evidence Mestemia? You never provide any.
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
Everything sounds a bit good until I get here. I gave you all the fruit, I got you guys kicked out of the garden, its all my fault. I should kill myself. Matter of fact all women should. Right.

(I do not think as I do)
You guys wouldn't stand so alone.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I just wanted to highlight something that most people don't see in their eagerness to accept evolution as truth....the language used in the articles of evolutionary scientists who want to promote their theory as fact.

The real fact is...there are no facts. There are suggestions and educated guesswork, but nothing concrete.

sayak83 said:
The scientific article analyzing its skull says

ABSTRACT Recent discovery of crania, dentitions, and postcrania of a primitive anthropoidean primate, Proteopithecus sylviae, at the late Eocene L-4l quarry in the Fayum, Egypt, provides evidence of a new taxonomic family of early African higher primates, the Proteopithecidae. This family could be part of the basal radiation that produced the New World platyrrhine primates, or it could be unrelated to any subsequent lineages. Although no larger than a small callitrichid or a dwarf lemur, this tiny primate already possessed many of the derived features of later anthropoids and was a diurnal and probably dimorphic species. In dental formula and other dental proportions, as well as in known postcranial features, Proteopithecus more nearly resembles platyrrhines than does any other Old World higher primate. The small size of the Proteopithecus cranium demonstrates that the defining cranial characteristics of Anthropoidea did not arise as a consequence of an increase in size during derivation from earlier prosimians.

Please expand the article and note the language in red. Is this the language of facts?

And here are some excerpts from your cited article on the "dawn ape"....

"Higher primates such as humans are considered the brainiacs of the mammalian world. But a 29-million-year-old fossilized skull suggests that one of our remote ancestors was a bit of a “pea brain,” sporting a noggin smaller than that of a modern lemur.
....Until now,
scientists had assumed brain size was a key feature that defined higher primates, a category that includes humans, monkeys and apes....
....Simons and his team dug up
the skull in 2004 from a quarry called the Jebel Qatrani Formation in Egypt. The cranium was so well preserved the team used micro computed-tomography (CT) scanning, which relies on X-rays, to recreate the inside of the skull and calculate dimensions of the brain it once encased.

He had found a similar, but fragmented skull at the site in 1966. Comparing dimensions of the old and new skull
suggests the 1996 specimen belonged to a male, while the new skull was that of a female. The size of the female skull suggests it “had a brain that might have been even smaller than that of a modern lemur's," Simons said.

The new skull also
suggests the species had a much smaller brain than was previously estimated based on the 1966 skull.
...."But other features in these skulls, and in many other Aegyptopithecus fossil pieces collected at the Egyptian site over four decades,
suggest that this primate was already branching away from its lemur-like ancestry," he said."

Do you see what I see? I see no facts, but I do see a whole lot of suggestion. Do you understand the power of suggestion? Advertisers do....promoters of evolution do too.

Call it a "theory" (by the dictionary definition) because it is not proven by any method that science uses to establish facts in any other field.
Please don't promote it as fact....that is a lie and a complete deception. It is an assumption at best.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I just wanted to highlight something that most people don't see in their eagerness to accept evolution as truth....the language used in the articles of evolutionary scientists who want to promote their theory as fact.

The real fact is...there are no facts. There are suggestions and educated guesswork, but nothing concrete.



Please expand the article and note the language in red. Is this the language of facts?

And here are some excerpts from your cited article on the "dawn ape"....

"Higher primates such as humans are considered the brainiacs of the mammalian world. But a 29-million-year-old fossilized skull suggests that one of our remote ancestors was a bit of a “pea brain,” sporting a noggin smaller than that of a modern lemur.
....Until now,
scientists had assumed brain size was a key feature that defined higher primates, a category that includes humans, monkeys and apes....
....Simons and his team dug up
the skull in 2004 from a quarry called the Jebel Qatrani Formation in Egypt. The cranium was so well preserved the team used micro computed-tomography (CT) scanning, which relies on X-rays, to recreate the inside of the skull and calculate dimensions of the brain it once encased.

He had found a similar, but fragmented skull at the site in 1966. Comparing dimensions of the old and new skull
suggests the 1996 specimen belonged to a male, while the new skull was that of a female. The size of the female skull suggests it “had a brain that might have been even smaller than that of a modern lemur's," Simons said.

The new skull also
suggests the species had a much smaller brain than was previously estimated based on the 1966 skull.
...."But other features in these skulls, and in many other Aegyptopithecus fossil pieces collected at the Egyptian site over four decades,
suggest that this primate was already branching away from its lemur-like ancestry," he said."

Do you see what I see? I see no facts, but I do see a whole lot of suggestion. Do you understand the power of suggestion? Advertisers do....promoters of evolution do too.

Call it a "theory" (by the dictionary definition) because it is not proven by any method that science uses to establish facts in any other field.
Please don't promote it as fact....that is a lie and a complete deception. It is an assumption at best.
It is usually the case that scientists deliberately use very low key language to explain their conclusions to other scientists. It is the manner we have chosen to highlight our position that we are always always open to change our conclusions on anything if new evidence comes in. No scientific paper or peer reviewed publication will be accepted which has words like "I am certain that..." in them. It is a simple idea. Certain evidence leads one to infer that certain things are more probably true than others, but future is open-ended, and new evidence can change the conclusion. Scientists will say the same thing about whether earth is round or that it revolves round the earth, or that those wings will allow the planes to fly in the air. Indeed science believes that all knowledge that can exist about the world is about saying X is more probable than Y given the currently available evidence Z. That's it. ALL SCIENCE, EVERYWHERE. Tell you what. Take what I wrote and go ask a scientist in your nearby university, anyone at all. Check if any disagree.

Hell, I will PROVE it to you. This is Albert Einstein's original and world renowned paper on special relativity.

https://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/specrel.pdf

Word suggest used:- 19 times.
Here is an extract from the abstract

Examples of this sort, together with the unsuccessful attempts to discover any motion of the earth relatively to the “light medium,” suggest that the phenomena of electrodynamics as well as of mechanics possess no properties corresponding to the idea of absolute rest. They suggest rather that, as has already been shown to the first order of small quantities, the same laws of electrodynamics and optics will be valid for all frames of reference for which the equations of mechanics hold good.1 We will raise this conjecture (the purport of which will hereafter be called the “Principle of Relativity”) to the status of a postulate, and also introduce another postulate, which is only apparently irreconcilable with the former, namely, that light is always propagated in empty space with a definite velocity c which is independent of the state of motion of the emitting body.


This is science. The rules of ordinary language do not apply here. What you think as "certain" we always say "maybe/probably".
 
Last edited:

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It is usually the case that scientists deliberately use very low key language to explain their conclusions to other scientists. It is the manner we have chosen to highlight our position that we are always always open to change our conclusions on anything if new evidence comes in. No scientific paper or peer reviewed publication will be accepted which has words like "I am certain that..." in them. It is a simple idea. Certain evidence leads one to infer that certain things are more probably true than others, but future is open-ended, and new evidence can change the conclusion. Scientists will say the same thing about whether earth is round or that it revolves round the earth, or that those wings will allow the planes to fly in the air. Indeed science believes that all knowledge that can exist about the world is about saying X is more probable than Y given the currently available evidence Z. That's it. ALL SCIENCE, EVERYWHERE. Tell you what. Take what I wrote and go ask a scientist in your nearby university, anyone at all. Check if any disagree.

Hell, I will PROVE it to you. This is Albert Einstein's original and world renowned paper on special relativity.

https://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/specrel.pdf

Word suggest used:- 19 times.
Here is an extract from the abstract

Examples of this sort, together with the unsuccessful attempts to discover any motion of the earth relatively to the “light medium,” suggest that the phenomena of electrodynamics as well as of mechanics possess no properties corresponding to the idea of absolute rest. They suggest rather that, as has already been shown to the first order of small quantities, the same laws of electrodynamics and optics will be valid for all frames of reference for which the equations of mechanics hold good.1 We will raise this conjecture (the purport of which will hereafter be called the “Principle of Relativity”) to the status of a postulate, and also introduce another postulate, which is only apparently irreconcilable with the former, namely, that light is always propagated in empty space with a definite velocity c which is independent of the state of motion of the emitting body.


This is science. The rules of ordinary language do not apply here. What you think as "certain" we always say "maybe/probably".

Yes, like all scientists, Albert Einstein was proposing his theory in language that is almost inviting a better mind to correct him. Science has to be stated in a maybe/probably format because a discovery made tomorrow "might suggest" or "could in all probability" mean that they were wrong about what they first "assumed".

All I said is, don't treat this theory as fact, because we all know that there are no concrete facts....it is as close as they can 'guesstinmate'.....whilst downplaying even the possibility of a powerful intelligence behind any of it.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Call it a "theory" (by the dictionary definition) because it is not proven by any method that science uses to establish facts in any other field.
As your comment seems to suggest-- at least I think and hope it does-- "theory" has a different meaning in science than it does with the "lay". One scientist would never say to another scientist "This is just a theory", unless it was clear that (s)he was not using the scientific definition.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
A bit interesting that we've dug deep enough to find dinosaurs but have yet to find the remains of the "missing link." You'd think we find those before we got to dinosaur remains, no?

This is all well and good, but a logical fallacy. The false cause fallacy. Just because things are related to each other does not mean one came from the other. We look at all the similarities between us and monkeys and say "Ah Ha! that's what we evolved from! Eureka!" You also share 50% of your DNA with a banana, and 70% with a slug, did we come from them? "No, because we share 98% with monkeys!.... we just can't find any proof"

A logical fallacy.

I'm not making the case that evolution is a hoax either. We've experienced evolution in recorded history so it is a thing... but to take that evidence and then go way back and try to determine the start of it all, especially just looking at similarities is (IMHO) research bias and is a logical fallacy.

Can I say "Well there's this book.." and say God created man? Well no, I wasn't there either, nor am I naive enough to think a single book has every answer, ever. Life doesn't work like that.

I'm not going to pick apart evolution from apes with any kind of evidence or reasoning because again... I wasn't there, nor was anyone else here, it's all speculation at this point.

Well, when I compare the morphology of the average human with the average gorilla, I can only think of the following three alternatives:

1) They share a common ancestor
2) They naturalistically developed their common traits independently on different branches of life
3) They have been supernaturally created by a God obsessed with the form and shape of apes

What is more likely?

Ciao

- viole
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, like all scientists, Albert Einstein was proposing his theory in language that is almost inviting a better mind to correct him. Science has to be stated in a maybe/probably format because a discovery made tomorrow "might suggest" or "could in all probability" mean that they were wrong about what they first "assumed".

All I said is, don't treat this theory as fact, because we all know that there are no concrete facts....it is as close as they can 'guesstinmate'.....whilst downplaying even the possibility of a powerful intelligence behind any of it.
Science will consider the theory of God when the evidence suggest it.
In this thread, I plan to show why evolution, specifically human evolution is as well established a science as Organic Chemistry or Quantum Mechanics. Thus one is employing double standards when being skeptical only about evolution and not about, say, aerodynamics, the science that keeps aeroplane up in the air. Thus, if you have arguments that show why human evolution should not be considered a well-established conclusion of science (like the conclusions of the theory of special relativity) , you are more than welcome to present it. You can be as much and as little skeptical of sciences as a whole or hold varying views of its explanatory completeness, but that is not the topic I am discussing here.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Sure, the abiogenesis line of thinking, and everything spawned from that. This falls on it's face though when you ask the question of why we have both male and female counterparts of the species. Something had to produce asexually to start, think cell division or even a hammerhead shark. If you subscribe to evolution in it's entirety, then at what point did a male counterpart spawn and then a female counterpart? Was it in a single generation?

http://www.biologyreference.com/Se-T/Sexual-Reproduction-Evolution-of.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_sexual_reproduction
https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2014/07/07/how-did-sex-start/
http://evolution-101.blogspot.com/2006/06/why-did-sex-evolve.html
http://www.crystalinks.com/fossilsex.html
https://www.boundless.com/biology/t...-238/the-evolution-of-reproduction-888-12139/
http://www.livescience.com/15096-sex.html
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Science will consider the theory of God when the evidence suggest it.
Absolutely, as science without evidence is no longer science but just guesswork.

For example, if I say "The world is coming to an end tomorrow", and someone asks of me "What evidence do you have of this?", and then I respond with "I just believe it is", that's not even a scientific hypothesis. Therefore, the minute one says or implies that the scriptures are evidence, that's just hearsay as there's no way we can check out the sources plus what their supposed facts are based on.

So, what some have then done is to say something like "Science is just based on belief as well", which really isn't true unless one begins to take the position that we cannot verify any of our perceptions. But if that's one's position, then why are they even posting here at RF to begin with? If our perceptions are so totally unreliable, then one cannot reasonably read what I wrote nor respond in any kind of coherent manner. It's like when I do my walk later today, and if there's a tree in front of me, do I take the position that "This tree may not exist in reality, therefore why should I move to either side?". [clunk]

Yes, our perceptions indeed are limited, and yes we may not perceive somethings correctly at times, but that's where "strength in numbers" comes in, and that's called "peer review" in science.
 
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