The Rise of the Nones

[Copernicus]

The AP has just posted a project on the worldwide rise of

The Nones
​

Although the subject has been discussed in RF at length before, this article focuses on the phenomenon in different countries--its international impact on religion. So I thought it might be of interest to start a thread devoted to the discussion of material brought up in it. Here is what they say in the general overview to the web project:

In many countries around the world, there has been a dramatic increase in the number of people who are nonbelievers or unaffiliated with any organized religion. These so-called “nones" — atheists, agnostics, or nothing in particular — comprise 30% or more of the adult population in the United States and Canada, as well as numerous European countries. Japan, Israel and Uruguay are among other nations where large numbers of people are secular.

In a sweeping package of stories, photos and video, The Associated Press Religion Team takes an in-depth look at how this phenomenon is playing out in several of these countries. The package also looks at regions where openly being a none is rare or even dangerous.​

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

There's starting to be new generations of people, and whether right or wrong - these new generations are bucking a lot of old trends.

 

[dybmh]

who are nonbelievers or unaffiliated with any organized religion.

are these two categories broken out and quantified?

atheists, agnostics, or nothing in particular

same question.

 

[Stevicus]

Why call them "The Nones"? I'm not sure I care much for that name. They ought to think of something else. Lest anyone get the idea that we're "nuns." Not that I have a problem with nuns, but I just don't want to be one.

 

[Left Coast]

Why call them "The Nones"? I'm not sure I care much for that name. They ought to think of something else. Lest anyone get the idea that we're "nuns." Not that I have a problem with nuns, but I just don't want to be one.

I'm calling you Sister Stevicus from now on.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm calling you Sister Stevicus from now on.

The Right Coast and Sister Stevicus meet for a holy convention, sponsored by Debater Slayer Sacrificer.

 

[Left Coast]

The Right Coast and Sister Stevicus meet for a holy convention, sponsored by Debater Slayer Sacrificer.

Sister Slayer of the Sacred Heart
Sister @Stevicus of Jesus
Sister Left Coast of the Holy Ghost

We're basically the Sister Act!

 

[Orbit]

Why call them "The Nones"? I'm not sure I care much for that name. They ought to think of something else. Lest anyone get the idea that we're "nuns." Not that I have a problem with nuns, but I just don't want to be one.

They are called the "nones" by survey researchers because they check the box that says "none" when asked about their religious affiliation.

 

[Stevicus]

They are called the "nones" by survey researchers because they check the box that says "none" when asked about their religious affiliation.

"Unaffiliated" sounds better to me.

 

[Orbit]

"Unaffiliated" sounds better to me.

I agree. The reason that it has stuck as a category name is actually due to the history of using it; it's a holdover from the past. Increasingly, survey researchers are trying to separate out the unaffiliation, agnostic, atheist, and "spiritual but not religious".

 

[Copernicus]

are these two categories broken out and quantified?

Sometimes they are, depending on who is doing the survey. The broad category seems to be for anyone who thinks religious faith is not an important factor in their lives. They don't attend church regularly, but they might believe in something like the Star Wars "force" in the universe. They aren't necessarily materialists in the sense that many atheists and agnostics are.

 

[Copernicus]

I agree. The reason that it has stuck as a category name is actually due to the history of using it; it's a holdover from the past. Increasingly, survey researchers are trying to separate out the unaffiliation, agnostic, atheist, and "spiritual but not religious".

The problem is that there is a lot of overlap across categories like "agnostic" and "atheist". I think that someone like Einstein, who did not want to be labeled "atheist" because of the dogmatic attitude associated with it, would have preferred checking the "none" box. He explicitly disavowed belief in a "personal God", but he wasn't out to convince others to his personal opinion on the matter. What mattered to him was his science, so he often used the word "God" as a kind of metaphor for mother nature (itself a pagan metaphor).

 

[Orbit]

The problem is that there is a lot of overlap across categories like "agnostic" and "atheist". I think that someone like Einstein, who did not want to be labeled "atheist" because of the dogmatic attitude associated with it, would have preferred checking the "none" box. He explicitly disavowed belief in a "personal God", but he wasn't out to convince others to his personal opinion on the matter. What mattered to him was his science, so he often used the word "God" as a kind of metaphor for mother nature (itself a pagan metaphor).

Yes, it's definitely not foolproof. Survey researchers might do better by specifying the definitions for each category on the survey itself rather than leaving it up to the respondent to guess what they mean by the category. That isn't perfect, but it might help.

 

[dybmh]

Sometimes they are, depending on who is doing the survey. The broad category seems to be for anyone who thinks religious faith is not an important factor in their lives. They don't attend church regularly, but they might believe in something like the Star Wars "force" in the universe. They aren't necessarily materialists in the sense that many atheists and agnostics are.

I'm not sure that is what is actually being measured. When I've read the questions of these surveys in the past, it was more about valuing "organized-religious-community" or not. It's more about the "religious" less about "faith". At least that was what I gathered from the surveys I researched. That seemed to be the purpose. Religious-community? Is it valued? What's the trend?

The topic has been discussed here before if I recall. Atheists picked up on the news story and did some cheerleading, but missed the details, as usual, of what is actually being measured.

 

[LuisDantas]

The articles for various countries are informative and probably worth a lot more attention than the numbers or even the definitions, IMO.

 

[Copernicus]

I'm not sure that is what is actually being measured. When I've read the questions of these surveys in the past, it was more about valuing "organized-religious-community" or not. It's more about the "religious" less about "faith". At least that was what I gathered from the surveys I researched. That seemed to be the purpose. Religious-community? Is it valued? What's the trend?

The topic has been discussed here before if I recall. Atheists picked up on the news story and did some cheerleading, but missed the details, as usual, of what is actually being measured.

There is a lot of fuzziness in the 'nones' category, and I agree that atheists often see the category in starker terms than is merited. Nevertheless, it is also true that many who accept being labeled as members of an organized religion don't attend worship services at all or make religion a big part of their daily lives. That is also part of the article. Those who call themselves "nones" in the survey appear to be more secular in their attitudes towards religion than those who merely don't attend religious services.

I think that LuisDantas's comment is on point. The purpose of the article is to highlight the growing worldwide trend of the decline of organized religion, and the nones category represents those who openly admit that they don't care to be associated with any denomination. A large number of that group will be people who are atheists and agnostics, but the more interesting observation is the international trend--what is happening in countries that were traditionally very religious but now have these large numbers of "nones".

 

[Orbit]

I'm not sure that is what is actually being measured. When I've read the questions of these surveys in the past, it was more about valuing "organized-religious-community" or not. It's more about the "religious" less about "faith". At least that was what I gathered from the surveys I researched. That seemed to be the purpose. Religious-community? Is it valued? What's the trend?

The topic has been discussed here before if I recall. Atheists picked up on the news story and did some cheerleading, but missed the details, as usual, of what is actually being measured.

Well, I can tell you the history of this. Up until very recently, the intent was to measure religious *affiliation*. The survey researchers therefore focused their efforts on providing respondents with lists of religions/denominations to choose from, with the "none" category as kind of an afterthought, because almost everyone was affiliated with something.

But over the years, more people started checking the "none" box on the survey. As more people disaffiliated, the focus shifted a bit to trying to figure out what "disaffiliation" meant more granularly. Now there is emerging research (often qualitative/interview-based research) trying to figure out who the people in the "none" bucket actually are. Some of the more recent studies look at how people define "Spiritual but not religious", and they will hopefully use that info to inform future survey construction. If you're interested in the SBNR qualitative research, I have attached an example of it here.

 

[dybmh]

the growing worldwide trend of the decline of organized religion,

Right. I had a very recent discussion about this among religious people ( important contextual detail ). And the conclusion / general consensus was, people in the past had an extended "family" in their congregations. This has been replaced by social media. That is where community, sharing, and caring happens outside the family unit.

This makes sense for a number of reasons. And, admittedly, among religious people, there would be maybe a bias against accepting a simple decline in "belief" as the cause. I feel like it was a down to earth group, but, that wasn't really discussed. That said, there is an interesting unique perspective brought by a religious group of congregants, that I don't think others on the outside will realize.

The decline in communal religious practice has been happening progressively over time. However, covid, kicked it into the dirt. Not just in my faith, but all over. That's why I quoted your comment about a world-wide decline. The consensus reason for this was, when people stopped gathering, the last hold-outs found their community online during covid, and have not needed to return to the communal practice. It's just too easy to connect online. The dramatic drop-off is consistent with a trend towards connecting online as the cause as opposed to a decline in belief. But, again, this was a religious group discussion.

The concern of the group was, "it's nerver coming back, we've been replaced by the internet." Naturally I was optimistic. An opinion that was not shared. I have co-workers, devout Christians, who are very tight with their church communities. But these are also folks who rush-rushed to congregate during the pandemic. And probably broke the rules to do so.

 

[viole]

The AP has just posted a project on the worldwide rise of

The Nones
​

Although the subject has been discussed in RF at length before, this article focuses on the phenomenon in different countries--its international impact on religion. So I thought it might be of interest to start a thread devoted to the discussion of material brought up in it. Here is what they say in the general overview to the web project:

In many countries around the world, there has been a dramatic increase in the number of people who are nonbelievers or unaffiliated with any organized religion. These so-called “nones" — atheists, agnostics, or nothing in particular — comprise 30% or more of the adult population in the United States and Canada, as well as numerous European countries. Japan, Israel and Uruguay are among other nations where large numbers of people are secular.

In a sweeping package of stories, photos and video, The Associated Press Religion Team takes an in-depth look at how this phenomenon is playing out in several of these countries. The package also looks at regions where openly being a none is rare or even dangerous.​

Is that supposed to be a surprise?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Copernicus]

Is that supposed to be a surprise?

Ciao

- viole

I think that the trend is an interesting phenomenon to watch. I suspect that more people will turn back to religion in coming decades as catastrophic climate change starts to cause more widespread suffering around the world. IMO, religion is first and foremost a coping mechanism, and people will be more desperate for ways to cope with the unprecedented disruptions.