The right to Work Magic

[Adramelek]

How do you as a Magician/Sorcerer balance your right and desire to work your will, with the non-Initiateds' right not to be intruded upon? [For example, how do you - or can you - justify the use of Lesser Black Magic or a lust or destruction ritual, to work your will upon or against a member of mundane society?]

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[Quintessence]

I'm going to mention from the outset that I really dislike rights language. When people talk about rights, they're referencing social constructs or contracts that guide/restrict human behavior. As social constructs, they can be freely ignored, because they are not natural laws that you are bound to no matter what.

I don't believe anybody has any "right" to not be intruded upon, regardless of their status. The idea that anyone has such a "right" is absurd to me, especially since I recognize that we live in an interconnected universe. Everything is perpetually "intruding" on everything else given natural laws stipulate two objects can't exist in the same space at the same time (among other things). Sitting right here in this chair I'm intruding on the Air Spirits who would otherwise be occupying this spot. My car parked outside is intruding on what could potentially be someone else's space.

Of special consideration for spellcraft, social contracts regarding rights are only effective when they're enforced. The only existing enforcement of the supposed "right against intrusion" is social norms that make such acts taboo (in other words, peer pressure). There is no witch police enforcing nonexistent witch laws. Even if people have a hypothetical "right" to not be intruded upon with spells, there is no enforcement of this supposed right, so it is meaningless if you don't care about conforming to social norms and avoiding taboos.

 

[Kemble]

It should be the same ethical standards already in society. I think Harry Browne's How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World is excellent in bringing that type of libertarian ethics from the macro to the micro which will probably have affinity with a lot of folks on this DIR.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

How do you as a Magician/Sorcerer balance your right and desire to work your will, with the non-Initiateds' right not to be intruded upon? [For example, how do you - or can you - justify the use of Lesser Black Magic or a lust or destruction ritual, to work your will upon or against a member of mundane society?]

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

Simple: I don't believe in rights.

 

[Infinitum]

I agree with Quintessence and Gjallarhorn. There are no rights out there to break, only our own conscience. I wouldn't want to be known as a manipulative a** nonetheless. That's not about morals, however, but about the simple fact that it's easier to live with people who like you.

 

[Kemble]

I agree with Quintessence and Gjallarhorn. There are no rights out there to break, only our own conscience. I wouldn't want to be known as a manipulative a** nonetheless. That's not about morals, however, but about the simple fact that it's easier to live with people who like you.

Honestly if someone lacks personal ethical standards it says more about the lack of discipline over impulsivity in their character than anything else. And people really pick up on folks pretending just to fit in so it doesn't work in practice. But your mileage may vary.

 

[Orias]

How do you as a Magician/Sorcerer balance your right and desire to work your will, with the non-Initiateds' right not to be intruded upon? [For example, how do you - or can you - justify the use of Lesser Black Magic or a lust or destruction ritual, to work your will upon or against a member of mundane society?]

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

I'd say it depends on if the other person wants it. If they don't, I'd back off.

Someone in my life has been struggling with this concept lately. Though generally when it comes to the mundane its a matter of what the will specifically determines as "mundane". If you get a rush from it, then I'd hardly consider it mundane. But if its annoying then its also different.

 

[Orias]

I agree with Quintessence and Gjallarhorn. There are no rights out there to break, only our own conscience. I wouldn't want to be known as a manipulative a** nonetheless. That's not about morals, however, but about the simple fact that it's easier to live with people who like you.

I think when it comes to two magical beings, its more a matter of consequence than ethics or morals. But the concepts can intertwine for examples sake at any moment.

 

[Orias]

Remember, its a gift. Those who abuse it can just as easily be stripped of it or even more often completely removed the game and its usage.

Its all about self building, not extreme self indulgence.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Never had to justify it, never had to explain it. My parents just think I'm doing Harry Potter stuff.

 

[Adramelek]

How do you as a Magician/Sorcerer balance your right and desire to work your will, with the non-Initiateds' right not to be intruded upon? [For example, how do you - or can you - justify the use of Lesser Black Magic or a lust or destruction ritual, to work your will upon or against a member of mundane society?]

As a Black Magician I just simply have a different set of ethics. For instance, I try not to "intrude" upon the lives of others, that is at least not in a negative way. Although if someone intrudes upon my life with ill intent then they have forfited any "right" they may have had for me not to magically intrude upon them if I so choose. The majority of my magic is focused on the furtherance of my own life, being, and expression of Self. Also, I agree there is no right not to be intruded upon as no one can escape the influence of LBM or GBM for it is all around us. Unless you live on a deserted island you cannot escape influencing or being influenced by other humans.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[1137]

How do you as a Magician/Sorcerer balance your right and desire to work your will, with the non-Initiateds' right not to be intruded upon? [For example, how do you - or can you - justify the use of Lesser Black Magic or a lust or destruction ritual, to work your will upon or against a member of mundane society?]

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

Well destruction rituals require breaking the law, which I try not to do. Everything else cannot be accomplished without the acceptance of the other individual, unless you break the law. So really, apart from breaking the law, there is no "black" magic, and even then we're discussing human morality needed to maintain order, nothing objective.

 

[NIX]

I've never heard of anyone in this country being charged with 'practice of symbolic psychodrama'. That's because it's not against the law. If OTHER laws are clearly and directly broken in the enactment of a psychodrama- the accused would be charged with THOSE crimes. Any church with an altar would be in trouble with the law otherwise.

 

[NIX]

Well destruction rituals require breaking the law, which I try not to do. Everything else cannot be accomplished without the acceptance of the other individual, unless you break the law. So really, apart from breaking the law, there is no "black" magic, and even then we're discussing human morality needed to maintain order, nothing objective.

I dunno. Christian churches enact rituals where they seek to destroy the devil's 'hold' over the world. People who pray for govts. to fall and abortion doctors to die and new laws that will make currently innocent people guilty so they can be thrown in jail- people who engage in prayer ritual to bring down pop culture, tear down corporations and put an end to the 'world' as we know it-- they cannot be charged for engaging in ritual prayer- no matter what it is that they are praying for. And if any of these things they were praying for should (coincidentally) come to pass with no direct or physical involvement on their part- they cannot be legally charged or punished.

 

[NIX]

I used to know of christians who made it a practice to go around "destroying things in 'the spirit'". Tearing down the objective world 'of mammon' in the subjective world of their minds- as if they were warriors of god on a mission. The destrucion of 'ungodly' things 'in the spirit' (ie their minds) was meant to be as a catalyst in 'bringing down' those things for real. Still not illegal. Fantasies are not illegal. Although these days, under the patriot act, who knows- maybe they are. (does anyone know?)

 

[1137]

I dunno. Christian churches enact rituals where they seek to destroy the devil's 'hold' over the world. People who pray for govts. to fall and abortion doctors to die and new laws that will make currently innocent people guilty so they can be thrown in jail- people who engage in prayer ritual to bring down pop culture, tear down corporations and put an end to the 'world' as we know it-- they cannot be charged for engaging in ritual prayer- no matter what it is that they are praying for. And if any of these things they were praying for should (coincidentally) come to pass with no direct or physical involvement on their part- they cannot be legally charged or punished.

Well if you sit back and do nothing then no magic or prayer will work. A "death spell" is only to give me the extra push I need to physically murder someone, which is against the law. Magic is not only thought, but action. It does not matter what one believes, you cannot pray someone to death and that is a fact of reality. Now, a person believing in prayer and knowing of the death spell may lead to their own death, but that is nobody's fault but theirs.

 

[NIX]

Well if you sit back and do nothing then no magic or prayer will work. A "death spell" is only to give me the extra push I need to physically murder someone, which is against the law. Magic is not only thought, but action. It does not matter what one believes, you cannot pray someone to death and that is a fact of reality. Now, a person believing in prayer and knowing of the death spell may lead to their own death, but that is nobody's fault but theirs.

Very often people see some degree of interpreted correlation or coincidence as their magic or prayer having worked. I personally see a death spell working more as a release- or a death of something- for the one casting the spell. They may see that their spell worked in that perhaps there was some death of the situation for them. Like in the Tarot, where the "Death" card rarely ever has anything at all to do with literal physical death. The success of a death spell is measured by the 'death'- or more properly the end- of that person or situation in their own life. Neither do I believe it is possible to "curse" another person without actually BEING a curse (a controller, an extreme annoyance etc) to them in their real life. People are plenty good at cursing themselves however. Often it's just a matter of time.

Prayer warriors simply change their tune when "bad" and "good" stuff happens. God did it- answered their prayer- when there was destruction along the lines of their prayer, and the devil of course has done it when destruction falls upon their own heads.

 

[Orias]

How do you as a Magician/Sorcerer balance your right and desire to work your will, with the non-Initiateds' right not to be intruded upon? [For example, how do you - or can you - justify the use of Lesser Black Magic or a lust or destruction ritual, to work your will upon or against a member of mundane society?]

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

I'm going to take another stab at this.

The right to work my will depends on the following, how I am feeling, what the other person is feeling, and what I am capable of and what the other person is capable of.


If I get the feeling they are telling me, "Hey man, f you" then I'm going to do something about it.

 

[Orias]

If a person does not want to receive magical influence. But does nonetheless, what choice would they necessarily have, other than to basically charge head first into death?

Magic is not about choice. Spells are cast to the beat of our heart. To have control, and to pursue an infusion of what is basically achieving the ultimate state of energy or existence is what determines Gods among men, and then Gods among Gods. Magic is simply beyond them all.

 

[NIX]

I personally don't have the time nor the energy to concern myself much with other people to begin with. If someone's in my way, I find the easiest solution is to simply go around them.