The right to Work Magic

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well destruction rituals require breaking the law, which I try not to do. Everything else cannot be accomplished without the acceptance of the other individual, unless you break the law. So really, apart from breaking the law, there is no "black" magic, and even then we're discussing human morality needed to maintain order, nothing objective.

Which destruction rituals involve breaking the law? It's not against the law to focus negative energy towards something or someone.

 

[fnord]

How do you as a Magician/Sorcerer balance your right and desire to work your will, with the non-Initiateds' right not to be intruded upon? [For example, how do you - or can you - justify the use of Lesser Black Magic or a lust or destruction ritual, to work your will upon or against a member of mundane society?]

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

For me, philosophically, it boils down to acceptance of the ground rules.

By practicing magic, I expose myself to magic and welcome positive result and negative consequence.

It's akin to a soldier who elects to pick up a rifle and go to war. He may use his rifle to kill as he exposes himself to return fire.

 

[1137]

Which destruction rituals involve breaking the law? It's not against the law to focus negative energy towards something or someone.

Ah so youre not talking about magic, just mental masturbation? Magic helps accomplish something, "sending energy" (a pseudo-scientific, new agey idea) accomplishes nothing against the other. Recognized and used to simply alleviate your own anger, sure, but I would not call that a "destruction ritual".

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Ah so youre not talking about magic, just mental masturbation? Magic helps accomplish something, "sending energy" (a pseudo-scientific, new agey idea) accomplishes nothing against the other. Recognized and used to simply alleviate your own anger, sure, but I would not call that a "destruction ritual".

What exactly is a destruction ritual to you, then? And I'm not exactly sure how you're defining magick or ritual magick, since the biggest part of it is the directing and manipulation of psychic energy. You see it as "pseudo-scientific" and "new agey" but I don't agree and I really don't know what you're talking about. Unless you're just trying to be mysterious like some people do?

 

[NIX]

Ah so youre not talking about magic, just mental masturbation? Magic helps accomplish something, "sending energy" (a pseudo-scientific, new agey idea) accomplishes nothing against the other. Recognized and used to simply alleviate your own anger, sure, but I would not call that a "destruction ritual".

I don't know how to say this exactly, but you are coming dangerously close to ... false allegation and slander of others, by association of your own 'defining' assumptions.

And yes- if by symbolically destroying someone in your own mind- you are able to destroy some hold they have over you (that hold might even be the anger that keeps you from acting with a totally clear and concise mind as they are concerned), you have actually initiated a superior stance against the other in real life.

The Magical tool of symbolism is just that. Symbolism.

 

[Adramelek]

Sometimes in life we are faced with the scenerio of an unstoppable force vs. an immovable object, in such cases destruction magic could be employed. However, when doing so you have to consider the possibility that the force you are confronting may be more powerful or more intune with the Powers of Darkness than you. In such a case you have to accept the responsibility and possibility that you may be up a creek without a padle. Careful consideration should always be taken if one decides to exercise destruction magic against another, especially if that other is also a practicing magician.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[Kemble]

Honestly "destruction rituals" drill the habit of anger and will probably make you a worse off dick in the real world to yourself and others than help with anything. Instead the better approach would be to use frustration (before it turns into anger) as a signal to propel you into addressing an issue with precision.

 

[1137]

Going off Kemble, I would recommend learning to meditate rather than sitting in a ritual chamber thinking about how much someone has harmed you or whatever. These "destruction rituals" are likely to do more harm than good for you. Just let it go would be my advice

As for defining a destruction ritual, I guess I'm just not LaVeyan enough to get it. If I want to "destroy" you I am going to cut your throat, not sit in a chamber brooding over how much I hate you and throwing darts at your headshots. This is murder, a felony offense.

 

[Kemble]

Going off Kemble, I would recommend learning to meditate rather than sitting in a ritual chamber thinking about how much someone has harmed you or whatever. These "destruction rituals" are likely to do more harm than good for you. Just let it go would be my advice

Exactly -- we sort of really do empower what we focus on. People usually don't know that "letting off steam" through such things as destruction rituals really means ingraining in the psyche anger and violent thinking patterns as an OK emotional reaction to frustrating events and getting yourself immersed in negativity in ever more sophistication. Frustration is healthy. It gets you to actually do something about a problem. Anger isn't.

 

[1137]

Exactly -- we sort of really do empower what we focus on. People usually don't know that "letting off steam" through such things as destruction rituals really means ingraining in the psyche anger and violent thinking patterns as an OK emotional reaction to frustrating events and getting yourself immersed in negativity in ever more sophistication. Frustration is healthy. It gets you to actually do something about a problem. Anger isn't.

Building up anger like that is more likely to lead to some law breaking destruction as well. There's what happens behind almost every mass murder; just built up hatred that you let fester and stay inside your mind. Very unhealthy.

 

[NIX]

So many assumptions and sweeping generalizations being put forth in these last 4 posts.

I'll come back to this later when I'm more in the mood.

 

[fnord]

Anger is as much a natural emotion as sadness, contentedness, happiness, etc.

I think the suppression of anger, ie the idea that it's somehow wrong to feel it, is a manifestation of the RHP's mission to suppress the animal instinct in man.

In my opinion, anger should not be suppressed as anger stored over a long period of time only becomes more and more potent.

The idea behind the destruction ritual is to acknowledge the anger, feel it and let it go in a safe environment.

Done correctly (with correct focus), the ritual participant completes his/her ceremony at peace.

 

[fnord]

And I'm not exactly sure how you're defining magick or ritual magick, since the biggest part of it is the directing and manipulation of psychic energy.

To what end?

 

[Kemble]

The idea behind the destruction ritual is to acknowledge the anger, feel it and let it go in a safe environment.

My best educated guess is that emotions stem from what we tell ourselves (on the basis of Albert Ellis' REBT) yet become unconscious and rapid fire over time that we barely notice the thought pattern triggers. So I think anger stems out of frustration when we start down a chain of irrational thought patterns; frustration can be healthy while anger isn't. So I don't think anger is primal. For good or ill ritual is habit forming. Get into positive moods and ambitions in ritual, you ingrain the habit. Get into anger and negativity, you ingrain that also.

Here are some of examples of the irrational thought triggers: http://www.breakoutofthebox.com/RationalEmotiveTherapy.pdf

 

[fnord]

So I don't think anger is primal.

I disagree.

It seems as if you are saying that anger is always a product of frustration, and that it is necessarily a slow process (which can be analyzed).

People react with intense immediate anger to situations all the time, prisons are full of people who have done such things.

Other primates, chimpanzees etc all demonstrably react to situations with anger.

Regarding your larger point about ritual, I believe you (and many others on this thread) are misinterpreting both what it is and what it is for.

Have you performed ritual magic? If so, how?

(by the way, your opinions on this subject seem a bit off the reservation for a ToV initiate)

 

[Adramelek]

I personally don't see anything wrong with venting ones anger in a cathartic release during a ritual setting. It can be very healthy for the psyche even "if" it is just psychodrama. Further more how can any one say that ritual magic does not work unless you've actualy practiced it more than once or twice? Again, the only way to get any good at it, and to achieve desired results is practice. Magic(k) does indeed work or I would have given up on it long ago.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[1137]

Well everyone works differently and needs different things. I, personally, am just not into brooding over those who have wronged me, imagining hurting them and casting meaningless "energy" at them. That's just me though.

 

[1137]

I used to do destruction rituals often in high school and after a little, especially when my girlfriend and I broke up. Then I realized she was happy as hell and I was getting more angry and depressed. So I decided to let it go. May work for you, doesn't for me.

 

[Kemble]

It seems as if you are saying that anger is always a product of frustration, and that it is necessarily a slow process (which can be analyzed).

Yes to the former, no the latter. Yet anger can be managed when we prime for the conscious language that trigger it (which are mostly unconscious/rapid). Albert Ellis amassed the evidence for the REBT model in his books if you are interested.

Other primates, chimpanzees etc all demonstrably react to situations with anger.

I've never seen a definitive answer to how animals feel and think and its comparison to human cognition. I don't think we will ever know. I am not a fan of pulling the animal card for that reason.

Regarding your larger point about ritual, I believe you (and many others on this thread) are misinterpreting both what it is and what it is for.

I don't think the brain/unconscious ultimately cares what the performer thinks he is doing. The practice is immersive enough to ingrain conscious and unconscious thoughts, moods, and motivations. As Anthropologist Geertz appropriately put it, during ritual "the world as lived and the world as imagined turn out to be the same world."

 

[fnord]

Albert Ellis amassed the evidence for the REBT model in his books if you are interested.

Well, that's twice that you've referenced this person and, admittedly, I've not read his work(s). Besides that you seem reasonable in your responses so I think I'll table further discussion on this until I read some of Ellis' ideas.

Thanks for the reference & I'll rejoin after I get some perspective.