the right religion

[1robin]

so what...you are purposefully ignoring the dilemma here.
is that what faith does to people?

I might be ignoring the dilemma you are inventing. Since there will be no sadness in heaven to suggest it is a dilemma is meaningless. For the sake of argument let's say you will have no memory (or something very similar) of lost loved ones who rejected God. That still leaves the association with the ones who are there that your system denies you. I guess if you can't make heaven the way you want you prefer annihilation instead. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

you are purposefully ignoring the dilemma of the missing ones
the second standard...

You are assuming something contrary to the bible and so it has no bearing. There will be no sense of loss or regret in heaven.

how so? at least everyone in my life is meaningful...
not just those that make it.

I did not comment on who is meaningful or not. However my system at least preserves some of them while yours destroys them all. I do not care if you prefer annihilation but do not commit intellectual suicide by claiming it is better than the biblical heaven. I can't imagine a claim more irrational. As I have stated, when I was born again the experience removed years of guilt, pain associated with the loss of loved ones, and regret. It was my first experience of perfect peace and contentment. I imagine it will pale in comparison to heaven. Since salvation is a mere drop compared to Heaven’s ocean then from my point of view you are making about the most inaccurate claim possible.

 

[1robin]

what are you talking about...?
i value the now...
but it is you that doesn't right?

Why do you keep dividing your responses into separate posts? In atheism there is no ultimate meaning, purpose, or reason for anything. In your system people are arbitrary biological anomalies with nothing but opinion or preference to establish even arbitrary temporal meaning. There is nothing whatsoever in the Christian faith that diminishes to importance of this life. In fact it gives it far more meaning than can be found in atheism. Only when you allow bias to warp and twist scripture to produce the conclusion you desire is your claim applicable.

 

[1robin]

that doesn't matter. how would you feel about a loved one who didn't make it? sad, happy or indifferent?

Since there will be no suffering in heaven I reject your description as irrelevant. Why do you find value in rejecting a false Christianity you created? There is nothing gained by defeating a paper tiger straw man. Your biblical understanding seems colored through and through with bitterness and does not reflect what I find in the bible. I would reject your version of Christianity as well, thank God it does not exist.

and if you were to feel sad for them, then perhaps your god will feel jealous and cast you out....or even weirder, if you would feel sad for them and god knew you would then perhaps you would be right there with them...burning in hell.

This is once again non biblical and a meaningless warped belief you invented.

what a nice god you worship...

I really don't like this God you invented either but what has that to do with the bible. You continuously redefine every theological concept into a false one that you then ridicule. Your posts are exponentially multiplying like those tribles on star trek. Has somebody or a church done something to you in the past that has made you this bitter against
Christianity? It is very common and I am very sympathetic to the issue. Your argumentation has always seemed more of a personal vandeta laced with emotion instead of a reasoned based conclusion. I could tell you a story about a lady I met if you want that you would not believe about this issue.

 

[Storm]

OK, I'll take a stab at this.

Robin, you say that there will be no suffering in Heaven. WHY wouldn't it bother you to know that your son (random example) was in Hell?

 

[1robin]

Yeah, well that means no one can understand except what has been shown to them. And, what we are shown we have to trust.

I find I can't reason out and trust that reasoning based on what I read. However what I'm shown I find written about. It gives some confidence that at least the author had some understanding of what I've experienced.

Still doesn't give anyone authority over anything that hasn't been revealed.

I don't think a person can reason out what they haven't been shown. It is difficult to not start thinking to know beyond what you've been shown. I suspect that is why we end up with so many denominations. People receive some spiritual experience and start thinking it gives them license to interpret the Bible for the rest.

People who don't understand, there is no reason to think less of them our think any greater of one's self. It seems to me we are subject to the will of God. I can't make myself or anyone else understand. I have to wait and hope God will provide myself and others what they need.

I agree with most of this. My point was that I have found (and even lived this idea as I used to be this way) and the bible states that people who are resistant or hostile to God (atheistic) and have not been born again, do not have the holy spirit and so do not have the translator (if you will) to understand many theological concepts. Their own bias then turns that lack of understanding into the conclusion that these doctrines are foolish.
The bible states it and I have observed it countless times, so I conclude it is a correct general principle. I do not personally think it universally applies in every case or the same degree.
IMO people who do not have the spirit but are not hostile (agnostic) to God usually can not understand many spiritual doctrines but do not warp that into a conclusion of foolishness, they simply do not undersand but do not use it as an excuse to dismiss it.

 

[1robin]

OK, I'll take a stab at this.
Robin, you say that there will be no suffering in Heaven. WHY wouldn't it bother you to know that your son (random example) was in Hell?

Stab away. God has and does many things we do not fully understand and probably never will. His capacity and intellect is infinite. The bible states that he will wipe away every tear and makes many other statements that lead theologians to conclude that obviously it will be impossible to be sad or have regrets in heaven. I do not have the capacity to explain fully how God will go about this. I will offer a possibility to illustrate the concept. It would be a simple matter for God to remove any memory of anyone in our pasts that is not in heaven. This would leave no possible source of sadness relating to this issue. There are many scriptures to lend credence to this concept. It records that many supernatural changes will happen when we are resurrected: we will have no desire to sin, we will be incorruptible, we will not have pain, fear, etc.... Since one supernatural claim is as improbable as another then either anything is possible or nothing. Non-believers make a common mistake of applying probability to different supernatural claims. They will accept some and deny others. When they are all equally probable. Did this help? A finite mind is at a disadvantage to describe the capability and actions of an infinite one. The bible suggests there will be no sadness and that is enough for me.

I will add that the depression and profound and debilitating sadness related to my mothers death was completely removed at the moment I was saved. If that is an indication of God's power then Heaven will be beyond comprehension or description.

 

[Storm]

Stab away. God has and does many things we do not fully understand and probably never will. His capacity and intellect is infinite. The bible states that he will wipe away every tear and makes many other statements that lead theologians to conclude that obviously it will be impossible to be sad or have regrets in heaven. I do not have the capacity to explain fully how God will go about this. I will offer a possibility to illustrate the concept. It would be a simple matter for God to remove any memory of anyone in our pasts that is not in heaven. This would leave no possible source of sadness relating to this issue. There are many scriptures to lend credence to this concept. It records that many supernatural changes will happen when we are resurrected: we will have no desire to sin, we will be incorruptible, we will not have pain, fear, etc.... Since one supernatural claim is as improbable as another then either anything is possible or nothing. Non-believers make a common mistake of applying probability to different supernatural claims. They will accept some and deny others. When they are all equally probable. Did this help? A finite mind is at a disadvantage to describe the capability and actions of an infinite one. The bible suggests there will be no sadness and that is enough for me.

I will add that the depression and profound and debilitating sadness related to my mothers death was completely removed at the moment I was saved. If that is an indication of God's power then Heaven will be beyond comprehension or description.

The possibility of mind wipe is the only one I can conceive, and it strikes me as more horrific than Hell itself, tbh.

That said, I appreciate that you can't explain, and accept it.

BTW, I'm not sure whether you were including me in "non-believers," but I'm quite devout.

 

[waitasec]

I might be ignoring the dilemma you are inventing.

oh so then everyone you know and care for will make it to heaven regardless...
excellent!

 

[waitasec]

You are assuming something contrary to the bible and so it has no bearing. There will be no sense of loss or regret in heaven.

i don't see any difference between that and being a sociopath, unless of course everyone you know and care for will be in heaven

 

[waitasec]

I did not comment on who is meaningful or not. However my system at least preserves some of them while yours destroys them all. I do not care if you prefer annihilation but do not commit intellectual suicide by claiming it is better than the biblical heaven. I can't imagine a claim more irrational. As I have stated, when I was born again the experience removed years of guilt, pain associated with the loss of loved ones, and regret. It was my first experience of perfect peace and contentment. I imagine it will pale in comparison to heaven. Since salvation is a mere drop compared to Heaven’s ocean then from my point of view you are making about the most inaccurate claim possible.

some? are you kidding me?


then i see no difference between a sociopath and the one who makes it to heaven is fully fine knowing their loved ones didn't make it.

 

[waitasec]

In atheism there is no ultimate meaning, purpose, or reason for anything.

says you...and you are wrong.

 

[waitasec]

In your system people are arbitrary biological anomalies with nothing but opinion or preference to establish even arbitrary temporal meaning.

:biglaugh:
thank you for that....my side hurts from laughing so much.

are you suggesting that the idea of atonement for "sin" isn't arbitrary?


stop while your behind....

 

[kjw47]

The possibility of mind wipe is the only one I can conceive, and it strikes me as more horrific than Hell itself, tbh.

That said, I appreciate that you can't explain, and accept it.

BTW, I'm not sure whether you were including me in "non-believers," but I'm quite devout.

I do believe this is the reality of hell( eternal place of suffering)
Deuteronomy 32:4 teaches--All of Gods ways are justice--- Justice is represented by a balanced scale-- lets apply the eternal place of torment on the justice scale.
On one side- 70 -90 years of unrepented sin----- on the other side-trillions x trillions x trillions x trillions of years of never ending punishment.--- now apply the true God to that and one should come to this conclusion---- there is absolutly no justice in the teaching of eternal torment, not the God taught by the bible. also when one sees that the lake of fire is actually the 2nd death--one can see there is no eternal life in death. Also Gods word teaches that-- those who walk the broad and spacious path to destruction--again there is no life in destruction.
Thus the only conclusion that i can believe from these facts are that any religion that teaches an eternal place of torment is teaching a sadistic lie about the true God because they reside in darkness--Hell is symbolic. its just the grave.

 

[waitasec]

There is nothing whatsoever in the Christian faith that diminishes to importance of this life.

what the hell are you talking about
really...?

matthew 10:34-39, luke 12:51-53
luke 12:27-34 seems to suggest it does

the entire book of job does


you're hysterical or a poe...this can't be really happening...
no no no...it can't :no:

 

[waitasec]

I do believe this is the reality of hell( eternal place of suffering)
Deuteronomy 32:4 teaches--All of Gods ways are justice--- Justice is represented by a balanced scale-- lets apply the eternal place of torment on the justice scale.
On one side- 70 -90 years of unrepented sin----- on the other side-trillions x trillions x trillions x trillions of years of never ending punishment.--- now apply the true God to that and one should come to this conclusion---- there is absolutly no justice in the teaching of eternal torment, not the God taught by the bible. also when one sees that the lake of fire is actually the 2nd death--one can see there is no eternal life in death. Also Gods word teaches that-- those who walk the broad and spacious path to destruction--again there is no life in destruction.
Thus the only conclusion that i can believe from these facts are that any religion that teaches an eternal place of torment is teaching a sadistic lie about the true God because they reside in darkness--Hell is symbolic. its just the grave.

i am concerned that there are those who adhere to it as a real place and have allowed for themselves to accept that of ever being possible.
it's as if anyone and everyone that are supposed to be meaningful are really meaningless.

how sad. no, no. how scary.

 

[1robin]

The possibility of mind wipe is the only one I can conceive, and it strikes me as more horrific than Hell itself, tbh.

That said, I appreciate that you can't explain, and accept it.

BTW, I'm not sure whether you were including me in "non-believers," but I'm quite devout.

My comment about non believers was a general claim and not directed specifically at you. We are all fallable humans and use similar tactics on occasion. I do not understand how is it that you can be devout while finding the concept of Heaven as hellish? Or was it just that hypothetical concept I mentioned you find that way? Did you mean devouted Christian or something else?

I do not agree with your assesment of the horrors of not remembering certain things since a non memory is incapable of causing discomfort. Many divorcees or Mothers that aborted a child would give anything to forget their former experiences. I have had many say as such in church councelling events. I do not claim to know the method but the bible makes the end result rather certain. When compared with atheistic total eventual anihilation I do not see any comparison which was the context of my claims. Whatever the possible or imagined circumstances in Heaven they are vastly more appealing than any other end result I have ever heard of.

 

[1robin]

oh so then everyone you know and care for will make it to heaven regardless...
excellent!

You have the most remarkable ability to see what you want in things. What I said can not be extrapolated to this. No matter what the method the end result will be that If I am in Heaven and Heaven is the biblical concept I will not be troubled by the memory of people who are not there. That would render Heaven not Heaven and is I believe the exact opposite to the, or at least one of the "only" choices available in the Heaven you invented.

Whatever I post to you usually comes back in an almost unrecognizable form. It is some what entertaining.

 

[1robin]

some? are you kidding me?


then i see no difference between a sociopath and the one who makes it to heaven is fully fine knowing their loved ones didn't make it.

I find it impossible to believe you don't get this. The biblical Heaven results in the enjoyment forever of at least some of your loved ones and no regret or pain from any other person or source. Yours results in universal destruction of everything and everybody. What is the issue here?

 

[1robin]

says you...and you are wrong.

Since your system can't even establish a universal standard for the concepts we are discussing then this is a pointless statement. I do not think you understand what it is I said and I am just to lazy to type it again.

 

[Storm]

I do not agree with your assesment of the horrors of not remembering certain things since a non memory is incapable of causing discomfort. Many divorcees or Mothers that aborted a child would give anything to forget their former experiences. I have had many say as such in church councelling events.

It's an easy thing to wish for in ignorance - but as a PTSD case with quite a bit of memory fragmentation, let me assure you I'd rather live it all over again every second of every day than carry that emptiness inside.

I do not claim to know the method but the bible makes the end result rather certain. When compared with atheistic total eventual anihilation I do not see any comparison which was the context of my claims. Whatever the possible or imagined circumstances in Heaven they are vastly more appealing than any other end result I have ever heard of.

I'd rather cease to exist than forget my son. I just can't cope with that.