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The Real Problem With Violence In America

Animevox

Member
Obama was inaugurated to his second term a few days ago and he's made it clear that new gun laws are a top priority. Obama is basically exploiting the fact that right now America is preeminently concerned about it's homicide rate after the shootings at Sandy Hook. Well, are murder rate is 4.8 per 100,000 which is down significantly from just a few years ago by the way. Is that a high murder rate? Well, compared to some countries, yes. It's higher than Canada which is at 1.6 per 100,000 or Germany which is at 0.8 per 100,000. However, is 4.8 really a high murder rate? It's true that it's high for an industrialized country, but compared to less modernized countries, are nation is a peaceful utopia. In Honduras for example, the murder rate is 91.6 per 100,000 which is 19 times higher than ours. There are tons of countries out there with muder rates that dwarf our own. Granted, most of them are third-world backwaters. But why compare ourselves with others to begin with? The countries of the earth will not ultimately be judged by their murder rates. So why not look at our murder rate by itself and judge it by it's own merits? Let's ask ourselves independently of this data from other countries, what sort of risk murder genuinely presents to America? 4.8 murders per 100,000 people is 0.0048%. That's what all this talk of new gun control is about. The fact that 0.0048% of the population are murdered. Murder is actually only 0.7% of all deaths in the U.S. On the list of all things likely to kill you, murder is tied with Parkinson's disease.

You're more likely to kill yourself than you are to be killed by someone else. Heart disease and cancer make up more than half of all deaths. So McDonald's and Marlboro are a much bigger threat to your safety than guns are America. Ronald McDonald might not shoot up a school, but little billy's chubby tit's are probably going to put too much strain on his heart one of these days and kaput.

McDonald's gets away with killing you because McDonald's kills you slow. As for Marlboro, everyone knows that cigarette's are bad for you, but I still know plenty of people who smoke and it's still legal to smoke. It's regulated, sure, but no one's having trouble getting it. The restrictions aren't such that anyone is being disuaded. Cigarrete's get away with killing you because they kill you slow. Nice and slow, and I say good. Aren't we supposed to be the country that champions liberty over safety? Aren't we supossed to be the country that smokes a cigarette, eat's a Big Mac, and fire's an Assault Rifle into the air? If America has any greatness, it's greatness is freedom. Not the sanitized freedom of the politicians who just use it as a buzz word. But the dirty freedom of outlaws and rebels. The freedom to own guns, to do drugs, to eat what you wanna eat, and to do what you wanna do as long as it's not hurting anyone else. But I think Obama is right when he says that it also means the freedom to see a doctor if you need to. Even if your own behavior led to you needing one. It means the freedom to know that if you lose your job, you're not just doomed to starvation. It means the freedom to be able to continue living comfortably even after you've grown too old to work. Why can we not embrace the liberties espoused by the libertarians as well as the safety nets envisioned by the liberals? Why can't we save our money and lower the murder rate at the same time by turning our shady black markets into well regulated and taxed white markets?

Afterall, our murder rate has far less to do with our gun policies than with our drug policies. Because our murder rate of 4.8 becomes far less when you take away gang violence. How far it goes down depends on whose numbers you're using, but no one can argue that without gangs, are murder rate is not 4.8 per 100,000. It's probably closer to half that. Roughly the same as the rest of the industrialized world, and why do gang members kill one another? It's not pleasure. It's business, and that business is drugs. Without a black market to fuel their criminal enterprises, most street gangs will fall apart and gang violence will ultimately drop. Our current murder rate; already lower than it was in the 90s would shrink to be on par with every other industrialized nation, and we wouldn't have to change our gun policy at all from what it is now. Well, I take that back, we can close the gun show loophole because that's just common sense, but everything else that Obama is talking about is just silly, and it simply won't work because it doesn't address the true problem. The real problem is our drug policy, not our gun policy. If Obama truly wants to lower violence, he will end the war on drugs.
 
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Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
Ronald McDonald might not shoot up a school, but little billy's chubby tit's are probably going to put too much strain on his heart one of these days and kaput.
I didn't read the whole thing, but this line is absolute gold!
:D
You sir, have earned some definite internets with that.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Does anyone really think that lessening the repression on drugs will result in less violence?

And is the OP's argument truly that gun murders aren't a serious enough problem to deserve attention?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Does anyone really think that lessening the repression on drugs will result in less violence?
I'd say it's possible.

And is the OP's argument truly that gun murders aren't a serious enough problem to deserve attention?
It's a question of priorities. There are greater sources of wrongful death, which deserve more attention than they get.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Obama was inaugurated to his second term a few days ago and he's made it clear that new gun laws are a top priority. Obama is basically exploiting the fact that right now America is preeminently concerned about it's homicide rate after the shootings at Sandy Hook. Well, are murder rate is 4.8 per 100,000 which is down significantly from just a few years ago by the way. Is that a high murder rate? Well, compared to some countries, yes. It's higher than Canada which is at 1.6 per 100,000 or Germany which is at 0.8 per 100,000. However, is 4.8 really a high murder rate? It's true that it's high for an industrialized country, but compared to less modernized countries, are nation is a peaceful utopia. In Honduras for example, the murder rate is 91.6 per 100,000 which is 19 times higher than ours. There are tons of countries out there with muder rates that dwarf our own. Granted, most of them are third-world backwaters. But why compare ourselves with others to begin with? The countries of the earth will not ultimately be judged by their murder rates. So why not look at our murder rate by itself and judge it by it's own merits? Let's ask ourselves independently of this data from other countries, what sort of risk murder genuinely presents to America? 4.8 murders per 100,000 people is 0.0048%. That's what all this talk of new gun control is about. The fact that 0.0048% of the population are murdered. Murder is actually only 0.7% of all deaths in the U.S. On the list of all things likely to kill you, murder is tied with Parkinson's disease.

You're more likely to kill yourself than you are to be killed by someone else. Heart disease and cancer make up more than half of all deaths. So McDonald's and Marlboro are a much bigger threat to your safety than guns are America. Ronald McDonald might not shoot up a school, but little billy's chubby tit's are probably going to put too much strain on his heart one of these days and kaput.

McDonald's gets away with killing you because McDonald's kills you slow. As for Marlboro, everyone knows that cigarette's are bad for you, but I still know plenty of people who smoke and it's still legal to smoke. It's regulated, sure, but no one's having trouble getting it. The restrictions aren't such that anyone is being disuaded. Cigarrete's get away with killing you because they kill you slow. Nice and slow, and I say good. Aren't we supposed to be the country that champions liberty over safety? Aren't we supossed to be the country that smokes a cigarette, eat's a Big Mac, and fire's an Assault Rifle into the air? If America has any greatness, it's greatness is freedom. Not the sanitized freedom of the politicians who just use it as a buzz word. But the dirty freedom of outlaws and rebels. The freedom to own guns, to do drugs, to eat what you wanna eat, and to do what you wanna do as long as it's not hurting anyone else. But I think Obama is right when he says that it also means the freedom to see a doctor if you need to. Even if your own behavior led to you needing one. It means the freedom to know that if you lose your job, you're not just doomed to starvation. It means the freedom to be able to continue living comfortably even after you've grown too old to work. Why can we not embrace the liberties espoused by the libertarians as well as the safety nets envisioned by the liberals? Why can't we save our money and lower the murder rate at the same time by turning our shady black markets into well regulated and taxed white markets?

Afterall, our murder rate has far less to do with our gun policies than with our drug policies. Because our murder rate of 4.8 becomes far less when you take away gang violence. How far it goes down depends on whose numbers you're using, but no one can argue that without gangs, are murder rate is not 4.8 per 100,000. It's probably closer to half that. Roughly the same as the rest of the industrialized world, and why do gang members kill one another? It's not pleasure. It's business, and that business is drugs. Without a black market to fuel their criminal enterprises, most street gangs will fall apart and gang violence will ultimately drop. Our current murder rate; already lower than it was in the 90s would shrink to be on par with every other industrialized nation, and we wouldn't have to change our gun policy at all from what it is now. Well, I take that back, we can close the gun show loophole because that's just common sense, but everything else that Obama is talking about is just silly, and it simply won't work because it doesn't address the true problem. The real problem is our drug policy, not our gun policy. If Obama truly wants to lower violence, he will end the war on drugs.
Do you really honestly believe that those who are killed in homicides decided to be killed?

That is the only thing I can think of when you compare homicide with smoking and eating at McDonalds.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah, that first paragraph exactly sums up my sentiments about this entire issue. A statistically minuscule problem does not warrant massive political attention in a country where the health care system is still a train wreck and environmental issues grow more dire by the day.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Does anyone really think that lessening the repression on drugs will result in less violence?
Eliminating repression in general would result in less violence, yes. Unfortunately, we are firmly entrenched in a culture of fear, repression and insecurity.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I apologize, but I kind of have to laugh when it is suggested that the United States or Canada is a "culture of fear, repression, and insecurity." If we think we are these things, then we really ought to recognize that in truth, we are a culture that is highly self-critical and has a hard time realizing how blessed it truly is. Want a culture with real ingrained fear, repression, and insecurity? Go find the ones that still stone their women to death or are given a hundred lashes for committing adultery.
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I apologize, but I kind of have to laugh when it is suggested that the United States or Canada is a "culture of fear, repression, and insecurity." If we think we are these things, then we really ought to recognize that in truth, we are a culture that is highly self-critical and has a hard time realizing how blessed it truly is. Want a culture with real ingrained fear, repression, and insecurity? Go find the ones that still stone their women to death or are given a hundred lashes for committing adultery.
Oh, we're more subtle about it than others, but that's why it shapes our lives more profoundly. We are slaves to capitalism, to money and power. We are spoonfed commercial fear until it actually begins to taste good. Each of us are that woman, walking a line so we won't be pounded by the same rocks that most of us aren't even aware we throw: propaganda, prejudice, public relations... (not to imply that the rocks all start with the letter 'p').
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
"Public relations" is the most devious stone of all. It was devised, at least in part, by Sigmund Freud's nephew, Edward Bernays, who in reading his uncle's work glommed onto a way to manipulate the public consciousness to favour the corporate dollar. They do polls, surveys, to see "what people want," and then take the data and deliver it back to us in advertising, and with the firm support of the survey behind it, in knowing this is "what we want," we go out and buy this thing. It's a self-replicating system, and evolves alongside public consciousness which is shaped by it, and which it in turn shapes.

ref: The Century of the Self - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The thing is, such forces that shape us and undermine our liberty, and that we unwittingly allow to do so, put us squarely in the same boat as those we see as submitting blindly to religious doctrines that apparently make little sense.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Does anyone really think that lessening the repression on drugs will result in less violence?

Of course! You haven't seen any bootlegging mobsters shooting each other with Thompson sub-machine guns since they've lifted the prohibition on alcohol, have you?

Edit: Falvlun beat me to the point.
 
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Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh, we're more subtle about it than others, but that's why it shapes our lives more profoundly. We are slaves to capitalism, to money and power. We are spoonfed commercial fear until it actually begins to taste good. Each of us are that woman, walking a line so we won't be pounded by the same rocks that most of us aren't even aware we throw: propaganda, prejudice, public relations... (not to imply that the rocks all start with the letter 'p').

Yeah, to me this sounds like another mouthful of self-critical and a failure to appreciate blessings. One has to grant a very cynical point of view in order for these points to bear merit. Don't get me wrong, I do think it has some merit, but I do not agree with putting the shortcomings of contemporary Western culture on the same level as those seen in nations that bear no resemblance to our liberal democracies. It's just not accurate to characterize a liberal democracy - where personal freedoms are generally granted and respected - as a culture as a one of fear, repression, and insecurity. I can sit here in this country and be a religious minority with minimal fear, repression, or insecurity. This is NOT the case in many other parts of the world. In fact, there was an article that ran recently on the Wild Hunt highlighting the startling silence of some Neopagans in Syria and Egypt. It's scary to think about these people being rounded up and shot for being religious minorities, and this level of repression simply does not happen here.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
I find it amusing when people attempt to paint their emotionally-driven biases as logical conclusions reached after a thorough and objective consideration of all the facts and issues.

I've been amused a lot lately with the "debates" over gun control.
 

Animevox

Member
Do you really honestly believe that those who are killed in homicides decided to be killed?

That is the only thing I can think of when you compare homicide with smoking and eating at McDonalds.

That simply does not matter. If we're gonna look at our death rate, we have to look at it as a whole. We can't just look at murder by it's self to the exclusion of other deaths.

Because it just simply isn't the true problem. If our real goal in America is to lower our death rate, than we have to start with the main problem and work are way down to the small.

It's the most efficient course of action and I think anyone could agree with that.
 
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dust1n

Zindīq
Oh, we're more subtle about it than others, but that's why it shapes our lives more profoundly. We are slaves to capitalism, to money and power. We are spoonfed commercial fear until it actually begins to taste good. Each of us are that woman, walking a line so we won't be pounded by the same rocks that most of us aren't even aware we throw: propaganda, prejudice, public relations... (not to imply that the rocks all start with the letter 'p').

North American poor people would be the equivalent of like... "head slave." Well we mosey along in the the information, the majority of people still live in very Marxian system of production. Increased technology have allowed corporations to move product anywhere in the world for cheaper labor, because in comparison to other standards, it is cheaper to ship in. When workers unite in countries, companies move again and exploit the lowest common denominator.

Africa, today, is probably by far the most heavily exploited continent there ever was. Follow that was Eastern Asia, The Middle East, Latin and South America.

Indeed, we share a large degree of privilege over most, but then again, we aren't much in comparison to the rich anywhere. Lower class white people in North America are much like being the prettiest Taco Bell employee.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I remember referring to Portugal years ago on this topic, and now it is even doing better than then. More so than I would have imagined, actually...

Ten Years After Decriminalization, Drug Abuse Down by Half in Portugal - Forbes

Very neat. But I do think that this part important too:

“This development can not only be attributed to decriminalisation but to a confluence of treatment and risk reduction policies.”
from the article

The problem is that I could very easily see America decriminalizing and then completely dropping the ball on treatment. After all, when you have half the populace who whines over giving aid to single mothers and children, how do you think they are going to respond to giving aid to drug addicts?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Yeah, to me this sounds like another mouthful of self-critical and a failure to appreciate blessings.

I'm with you Wilma, and I suppose many have been..

40
"The development of productive forces is the unconscious history that has actually created and altered the living conditions of human groups — the conditions enabling them to survive and the expansion of those conditions. It has been the economic basis of all human undertakings. Within natural economies, the emergence of a commodity sector represented a surplus survival. Commodity production, which implies the exchange of varied products between independent producers, tended for a long time to retain its small-scale craft aspects, relegated as it was to a marginal economic role where its quantitative reality was still hidden. But whenever it encountered the social conditions of large-scale commerce and capital accumulation, it took total control of the economy. The entire economy then became what the commodity had already shown itself to be in the course of this conquest: a process of quantitative development. This constant expansion of economic power in the form of commodities transformed human labor itself into a commodity, into wage labor, and ultimately produced a level of abundance sufficient to solve the initial problem of survival — but only in such a way that the same problem is continually being regenerated at a higher level. Economic growth has liberated societies from the natural pressures that forced them into an immediate struggle for survival; but they have not yet been liberated from their liberator. The commodity’s independence has spread to the entire economy it now dominates. This economy has transformed the world, but it has merely transformed it into a world dominated by the economy. The pseudonature within which human labor has become alienated demands that such labor remain forever in its service; and since this demand is formulated by and answerable only to itself, it in fact ends up channeling all socially permitted projects and endeavors into its own reinforcement. The abundance of commodities — that is, the abundance of commodity relations — amounts to nothing more than an augmented survival.

41
As long as the economy’s role as material basis of social life was neither noticed nor understood (remaining unknown precisely because it was so familiar), the commodity’s dominion over the economy was exerted in a covert manner. In societies where actual commodities were few and far between, money was the apparent master, serving as plenipotentiary representative of the greater power that remained unknown. With the Industrial Revolution’s manufactural division of labor and mass production for a global market, the commodity finally became fully visible as a power that was colonizing all social life. It was at that point that political economy established itself as the dominant science, and as the science of domination.

...

43
Whereas during the primitive stage of capitalist accumulation “political economy considers the proletarian only as a worker,” who only needs to be allotted the indispensable minimum for maintaining his labor power, and never considers him “in his leisure and humanity,” this ruling-class perspective is revised as soon as commodity abundance reaches a level that requires an additional collaboration from him. Once his workday is over, the worker is suddenly redeemed from the total contempt toward him that is so clearly implied by every aspect of the organization and surveillance of production, and finds himself seemingly treated like a grownup, with a great show of politeness, in his new role as a consumer. At this point the humanism of the commodity takes charge of the worker’s “leisure and humanity” simply because political economy now can and must dominate those spheres as political economy. The “perfected denial of man” has thus taken charge of all human existence.

44
The spectacle is a permanent opium war designed to force people to equate goods with commodities and to equate satisfaction with a survival that expands according to its own laws. Consumable survival must constantly expand because it never ceases to include privation. If augmented survival never comes to a resolution, if there is no point where it might stop expanding, this is because it is itself stuck in the realm of privation. It may gild poverty, but it cannot transcend it."

The Society of the Spectacle (2) (Debord)
 
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